Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive234
SPECIFICO
| Netoholic (talk · contribs) is warned not to use administrative boards to further disputes on Wikipedia. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SPECIFICO
In just over two days since the close of an AE request I made regarding SPECIFICO (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive232#SPECIFICO) up to my notice on his talk page about this HOUNDING, he had made 36 edits total, at least 17 of those (47%) were spent reverting me, replying to my comments on talk pages, and mentioning me by name - often within moments - and never making overtures toward congeniality, but filled with insistent, WP:BATTLEGROUND "This is how it is" attitude. I'm sure he'll have some reasonable explanation for individual actions, and some were naturally part of mutual exchanges, but his overall focus on me and lack of effort to try other areas of work to avoid it is undeniable. This sort of activity was the case even before the other AE, also, but I've limited my diffs to after he received his logged warning to show a pattern of reprisal. When I brought this to his attention, he was dismissive, and instead continued to repeat a claim that I reverted a page move he did. After several times telling him he was mistaken, and even showing diff proof that it was someone else who moved it, SPECIFICO has not acknowledged his mistake. My feeling is that he is not adhering to the warning given, and is pursuing an effort designed to confound my interactions with other editors based on a mistaken belief in a perceived wrong that is provably incorrect. The prior logged warning seems to have fallen on deaf ears. -- Netoholic @ 22:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC) I don't think this relates much with the User:Factchecker atyourservice AE going on, except perhaps as a concrete, time-limited example of SPECIFICO's style of BATTLEGROUND tactics. This is strictly covering SPECIFICO's behavior within 2 days of receiving a warning about expectations of behavior, which one would assume he would do everything to at least initially avoid such scrutiny. Yet, I detect no change in his approach, no remorse, and no acknowledgement of the problem. -- Netoholic @ 00:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC) If I had to point to one action which I feel especially clear about his behavior, its the 20:49 22 May - "copy edit" above. I had reached an amicable solution with another editor, then SPECIFICO almost immediately crushed that section to dust under the misleading edit comment "copy edit". He didn't inform the talk page of his intentions. To my mind, it felt like he couldn't stand seeing any minor agreement or cooperation taking place, so he salted the earth. -- Netoholic @ 04:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC) To editor Sandstein: - The section of my diffs labeled "Various" is included just to demonstrate my statement that 47% of his recent edits have been directed at me. Take for example this AfD, 4 editors have voted "Keep", but SPECIFICO has only directly replied to my vote comment. I do not reciprocate. I do not direct comments at him unless its a reply to something he said to me or mentioned me in. I keep quite busy across the project. In this same timespan I've created a new article of about 11k characters. I've continued my participation in WP:RM. But I do want to provide input on the main article the diffs are from, and when I do, I want to interact with a variety of other editors there. I do not deserve to be singled out by SPECIFICO and challenged on -everything-. When deciding on HOUNDING, ask yourself this:
-- Netoholic @ 07:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC) To any of the admins. You may close this at anytime. Though my intent was in good faith, based on the responses, I now know better when and how its appropriate to use the available conflict resolution venues. You can be assured I have no intent on using this one again regarding this editor. -- Netoholic @ 03:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SPECIFICOStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SPECIFICOI think I responded adequately to Netoholic's concern before he filed this complaint. The thread is here [1] I was surprised then to see him file shortly thereafter. Please note that Netoholic's assertion that I failed to correct my error concerning his opposition to my page move is incorrect. As can be seen in the history log, I struck and corrected it 90 minutes before he filed this complaint (immediately after I checked the relevant diffs). That thread was his second visit to my talk page in the two days since his earlier AE complaint was closed. The first one is here [2] SPECIFICO talk 00:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC) For the sake of completeness, in case editors review this file in the future and especially if they've not seen last week's similar complaint, I am providing this link to show the "user interactions" between me and Netoholic over the past 2 years. [3] As can be seen, in 10 of the 13 overlaps, Netoholic's edits followed mine. And one of those pages was Stefan Molyneux where he was violating the TBAN imposed by the community in 2014. Previously, he had appeared to be recruiting me to Molyneux' teachings. [4], for which he was blocked [5]. I don't think any IBAN is needed so long as the record is clear so that this matter need not be relitigated in the future. For my part, I think we can move on now. SPECIFICO talk Statement by Objective3000I suggest the filer read WP:PETARD and withdraw the complaint before it's too late. O3000 (talk) 23:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by TryptofishI've been editing in some of these topic areas recently (example), and I think that this filing should be understood as being in the same "series" as the one just above, about Factchecker-atyourservice. I can confirm that Specifico has been uncivil some of the time, but there's a lot of it going around. And there is some aspect of boomerang here. I don't know if AE can really handle it or whether there needs to be yet a third ArbCom case, but there probably do have to be a rather large number of topic bans. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by MrXI have to agree with Objective3000 here. A gentle boomerang might be in order. From where I observe, it seems that Netoholic may be pursuing a grudge against SPECIFICO. For example, this comment is uncalled for. A similar comment directed at another editor: [6] Perhaps Netoholic should be reminded that Wikipedia is not a battleground.- MrX 🖋 23:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by LioneltSeveral behavioral policy violations have been lodged against SPECIFICO relating to the Political views article. Netoholic has presented 17 diffs in support of HOUNDING and BLUDGEONING allegations. While these edits look suspicious, it is difficult to determine if these edits are evidence of violations or merely the result of normal editing. Regarding the allegation of ASPERSIONS it does appear that SPECIFICO corrected the error. At this time I cannot recommend sanctions against SPECIFICO. Some editors have suggested BOOMERANG against Netoholic. This is outrageous. It is unconscionable to threaten an editor in good standing with sanctions for bringing a issue to the attention of the community in good faith. With a limited admin corps we depend on editors to help control disruption and maintain civility and to attack these editors is counterproductive and a violation of AGF. BOOMERANG threats without conclusive evidence in the form of diffs should be treated as a personal attack WP:NPA "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki." – Lionel(talk) 04:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Moxy
Statement by GeogeneI've read Netoholic's diffs. They establish that there's an ongoing content dispute, but fail to demonstrate any behavioral issue. No, if you want to see behavioral issues--Netoholic personalizing the dispute--see MrX's diffs. I wouldn't say that those are heinous, either, but they tend to raise doubts about Netoholic as a force for civility in the dispute. I agree with Objective3000 and others that the question is whether this should close with a boomerang for Netoholic or not. That boomerang would probably be an informal warning from an admin about using AE for BATTLEGROUND ends. Geogene (talk) 05:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by JFGNothing to see here. All editors should be advised to cut the drama down a notch. — JFG talk 06:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranofThis is the second time in three days that Netoholic has attempted to have someone who has opposed their edits sanctioned through an administrative process; just the other day Netoholic filed an unfounded AN3RR case against me for reverting a block-evading sockpuppet on an article that Netoholic had neither edited nor engaged in any talk page discussion at any time, meaning the only reason for them to file the sanction request was to "punish" me for disagreeing with them on other articles. I suggest that Netoholic should engage those he perceives to be his "opponents" in good-faith discussion rather than poorly-supported and time-wasting sanctions requests. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning SPECIFICO
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Waleswatcher
| No action but Waleswatcher advised to review the expectations for editing in this area. --NeilN talk to me 14:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC) | ||
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Waleswatcher
Discretionary sanctions related to firearms articles. Link to DS warning on user page [[7]] Talk pages showing DS notice Talk:AR-15_style_rifle Talk:Colt_AR-15 - This page does not have a DS warning. Relevant policies, guidelines wp:Disruptive editing, WP:consensus, in particular WP:NOCONSENSUS and wp:forumshop With respect to disruptive editing,
And
And
Disruptive editing via failure to follow WP:BRD
User notification [[31]] Springee (talk) 01:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Update While Waleswatcher's behavior may not have crossed any deep red lines above the disruptive editing and failure to respect WP:CONSENSUS policies continues. Here WW asked an admin if the "stable" version of an article was one that was unchanged after being unlocked for less than 36 hours [[32]]. The question went unanswered so WW decided to violate WP:NOCONSENSUS by restoring the new version of the text. The edit summary was misleading. Yes, the text was discussed on the talk page but at 4:4 their is no consensus to change the lead. This change, especially after asking an admin for advice is WP:RECKLESS and disruptive. Springee (talk) 13:42, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning WaleswatcherStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DlthewavePoint #1 requires context to fully understand. It consists of moving the "Use in crime and mass shootings" section from near the bottom of the article to near the top. 18:06 4 April 2018 by Waleswatcher re-ordered sections to reflect importance, general interest, and the content of the lede 18:56 4 April 2018 by Springee Undid revision 834303022 by Waleswatcher (talk) please get consensus first. 20:25 4 April 2018 by Waleswatcher Undid revision 834308982 by Springee (talk) "Getting consensus" is not necessary for an edit on wikipedia. Rather, you should get consensus to undo. Please do not start an edit war. Use in crime and mass shootings is obviously more important than the modularity of the rifle, as is born out by the fact that one is discussed in the lede and the other not.)
Statement by Mr rnddudeI am involved here, and I am also the individual who suggested this venue in preference to AN/I. If you're wondering why the venue move, feel free to do a Ctrl+F search of Archive 983 of AN/I for any one of Waleswatcher, Springee or anybody who has posted a comment at Talk:AR-15 style rifle or Talk:Colt AR-15. There's been a spot of bother, you might notice. I'm also editorially involved over at those two articles ... or rather became involved recently ... because I looked at AN/I. I'll post a comment here on my observations of Waleswatcher first. There's a couple of things that are obvious to me from them: a) they are a newbie and b) they are engaging in a crusade (whether this is a serious pet issue, or just the result of push back I don't know or care to comment). I have personally stayed out of the actual articles, so will comment only on things said on the talk page.
This is a bit jumbled and quickly put together, but it should cover many of the issues that have arisen from Waleswatchers' participation. I'm not going to advocate anything in particular, but will suggest that Waleswatcher needs their course corrected soon (ASAP). I haven't commented on anyone else's behaviour yet, though I might soon enough. There's a couple things that have given me pause, but nothing comparable to the above. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (slaterstven)Both the filer and the accused have been up before ANI for various issues (in relation to this subject area), I am not sure either party is any more innocent then the other.Slatersteven (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by WaleswatcherI have to object to Springee’s notification for this. Last night I saw the alert "you have new messages", but looking at my talk page I didn't see any change, so I discounted it. Looking at my talk page history I now see what happened - Springee deleted their previous comment on my talk page, which was a notification of another complaint that they opened and then closed later, and replaced it with this nearly identical new notice. The only reason I found this at all is I thought it was odd I was messaged but there was nothing there. Had anyone else posted on my talk page around the same time, I might never have noticed. Rather than deleting content on someone else's talk page, why not leave the old notification, or at least add a note saying what they had done? It's just another example of how Springee interacts with me (and maybe others). I'll respond at length later. Waleswatcher (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC) General comment - in the ten years I have edited wikipedia I have only rarely been involved in contentious pages like these, and I freely admit that I am not very familiar with the dispute resolution process. I think it’s a problem that there is such a complex thicket of guidelines, policies, etc. The resulting wikilawyering creates a formidable barrier for entry and it makes it easy for editors experienced in these venues to force out editors they don’t like. This is probably the wrong venue to discuss that (indicative of the problem - I have no idea what the right venue is) but I thought it was worth mentioning as it’s fully in play in these articles. Regarding the principles I'm accused of violating: 1. Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors. In my experience this describes many editors on these gun-related pages. In particular, it describes Springee. A look at their history shows that they have been "editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors" - where “extended time” is several years in their case. This includes the deletion of reliable sources posted by me and other editors, for instance here, here, and here. As for me, I’ve been editing these articles since last month. I do in fact hold the opinion that some of these articles should contain more information regarding mass shootings than they certainly do, and there is clearly opposition to that view. When I first started looking at them, I was puzzled by the lack of information in that regard. I'm far from the only one, even the international media has noticed this:
Next: 4. Does not engage in consensus building: a. repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits; b. repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits. I think it was my repeated requests for explanations that were disregarded, not the other way around. I tried to engage and find a compromise version but could hardly get any of the opposed editors to state what their objections were (in fairness, Springee was far from the worst in this). I do admit to feeling pretty frustrated by this attitude. Rather than discuss the content of my edits, their response was to revert because of lack of consensus, and then demand I achieve consensus before restoring the edit. But when trying to achieve consensus, most of the responses were complaints about BRD etc. rather than about the substance of the edit. As a result, every proposed edit devolved into a deadlock.
5. Rejects or ignores community input: resists moderation and/or requests for comment, continuing to edit in pursuit of a certain point despite an opposing consensus from impartial editors. See above. It seems to me I was the one requesting comments and being ignored. I’m not going to respond to every specific point as this is already too long. I'll just make a few comments. Regarding edit warring, note that Springee reverted AR-15 style rifle three times in 24 hours (06:28, May 12, 2018, 13:35, May 12, 2018, and 13:56, May 12, 2018). I am guilty of reverting twice that day. 72bikers brought an ANI complaint against me for those reverts, which was dismissed since it clearly didn't violate 3RR. Regarding the forum shopping/VPP incident, I believed that the issue I (tried to) raise on VPP was sufficiently different that it merited a new discussion. The discussion on the talk page was regarding specific text I proposed to add to Colt AR-15#AR-15 style rifle, while on VPP the proposal was that that section be permanently WP:SYNCed to the lead of AR-15 style rifle, regardless of what was there or if it changed later. I thought (and still think) that would be a mechanism to help cut down on these disputes, since at least they could focus on AR-15 style rifle rather than both articles. I should have proposed that first, rather than proceeding as I did. I acknowledge I made a mess there, and I already apologized (and do so again now - I handled that incorrectly, sorry about that). Regarding my “threats” to edit here: I said what I intended to do on the talk page (which was different from what we had been discussing, or at least I thought so - see above). I got a lot of opposition, I listened to it, and as a result I never made the edit. Regarding the typo, Springee edited both their comment and my response. Editing my comment (and theirs after it was responded to) is a clear (if minor) violation of wiki's talk page guidelines WP:TPO (where it says "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page.", bold in the original). It annoyed me because I did not recognize that it was a typo when I responded (“clear lake of support” read as a rather poetic if non-standard phrase, and I was in a rush). Their edit changed the flavor of my response and I didn't like that, so I reverted. Their next edit showed as a revert of my revert, so I reverted that too and put a warning regarding WP:TPO on Springee's user page (by the way I don’t think this is a big deal; I'm responding only because Springee raised the issue). Waleswatcher (talk) 13:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC) One other comment: I did reach out to two admins for help on this here and here. Neither responded - which is totally understandable for any number of reasons, I'm not blaming them, just pointing out that I asked for guidance in how to handle these disputes before it came to this. Waleswatcher (talk) 14:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Waleswatcher
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