Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

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Revision of NLP's status as pseudoscience (Recent Peer-Reviewed Meta-Analysis)

Consider the abstract from recent peer-reviewed research as evidence that, while NLP is not a mainstream therapy, it is does not qualify as pseudoscience under the neutrality rule: Zaharia, Reiner, & Schütz (2015) Psychiatria Danubina, Vol 27(4), 2015. pp. 355-363. I won't edit the page yet, but it bears discussing... Bmcdani4 (talk) 21:11, 19 September 2016 (UTC)bmcdani4[reply]

What does this source say about the pseudoscience in NLP? Alexbrn (talk) 21:38, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've read this paper and I've got serious concerns about it. The authors of this meta-analysis appear to have a professional interest in NLP but there is no COI notice in the paper. Three of the papers they review have NLP therapists as authors and two of those papers (unsurprisingly) report positive results. This data is presented, but I cannot ascertain why those papers were not immediately excluded on COI grounds. I cannot fathom how the authors of this meta-analysis have controlled for 'risk of bias'. Two papers apparently contained "no information about the effect" and another "reported significant results but gave no further numerical information" so I don't know how they obtained the numbers they use in later figures/tables. I'm concerned at the inclusion "of conference proceedings (and) unpublished data" in the meta-analysis. There are 3 sources that are not obtained from scholarly databases but seemingly plucked out of thin air - and they are not identified. That's worrying. There are several PhD and Master's theses included in the meta-analysis and the largest pro-NLP effect is from a lowly Master's thesis. Nice try, but no cigar. In my professional opinion this is an example of garbage in, garbage out. Famous _dog (c) 12:05, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A new editor tried reversing the tone of the article at Methods of neuro-linguistic programming - see Talk:Methods_of_neuro-linguistic_programming#recent_advocacy_edits. I suggested they come here, but reviewing the new claim there may also be useful - David Gerard (talk) 21:46, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NLP has since been overwhelmingly discredited scientifically. Poor selection of words

"NLP has since been overwhelmingly discredited scientifically". This is statement is bias and diminishes the scientific content of the article overall. As an example, Christianity has been "overwhelming discredited scientifically". The same has been said of the work of Galileo and Einstein.

There are millions of users, practitioners and believers in the methods proposed by NLP. People have healed and learned to live a better live using NLP. It is now used in life coaching, and self-help programs

The statement should be modified to reflect a fact from an opinion. Jtllz (talk) 23:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Have you any WP:RS for these claims re NLP? Roxy the dog. bark 00:15, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Christianity is a religion, and thus its premises within faith are not subject to the scientific method. It may have also improved the lives of many of their practitioners, but that doesn't make it science either. On the other hand the line between religion and pseudoscience (trying to achieve tangible effects based on non-scientific reasoning) is blurry, and you mentioned the word "believers". Should NLP be classified as a religion instead? 2A02:AA13:8105:2500:D8C8:333E:8ED3:DEEC (talk) 12:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pray tell, could you clarify what you mean by the discrediting of Christianity? Its belief system is questionable, but last I checked we had empirical data confirming that this religion exists.Dimadick (talk) 14:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The words reflect the sources, we are not required to be neutral as to NLP claims or to take seriously evangelical claims such as those above ----Snowded ^TALK 14:54, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia contradicts themselves when Suggestion is a real process too

But NP is basically Suggestion. And Suggestion is a real thing - supported also by wikipedia - so I don't get the extremity of this article to discredit it. Yes, not all of it is true but the BASICS of it, the Suggestion, is obviously a real thing. --188.4.150.161 (talk) 12:50, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We work from sources not the personal views of any editors ----Snowded ^TALK 12:57, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Large amount of false information

It would appear that the contributors of this page appear to have a professional interest in undermining the usefulness of NLP. Since many psychologist are adopting the practice to help those where talk therapy is not working over long periods of time. Even the articles put forward as evidence against the science do not support what the contributors are claiming. That is, they are falsely and purposefully misleading the reader with links to articles that do not support the claims they made. It would be like linking an article about aliens to a medical journal on high blood pressure.

The page should be returned to its original few posts until which time factual data can be introduced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swanback (talk • contribs) 17:26, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Swanback: Welcome back to Wikipedia. It seems that you've forgotten that you can actually edit the article yourself. If you find references that do not support the content, you are entitled to flag that content or remove it. Since what you are proposing sounds somewhat contentious, please be prepared to hash out the changes here on the talk page. Unspecific suggestions for changes will probably languish until someone comes along with a more specific proposal. —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:08, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Swanback: You might also want to lay off the personal attacks and declare any COI you have. ----Snowded ^TALK 08:01, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Swanback: So, to break this down for you: "It would appear^{[weasel words]} that the contributors of this page appear^[opinion] to have a professional interest in undermining the usefulness of NLP.^{[citation needed]} Since many psychologists^{[weasel words]} are adopting the practice^{[citation needed]} to help those where talk therapy is not working over long periods of time.^{[citation needed]} Even the articles put forward as evidence against the science^[opinion] do not support what the contributors are claiming.^{[clarification needed]} That is, they are falsely^{[citation needed]} and purposefully^{[citation needed]} misleading^{[citation needed]} the reader with links to articles that do not support the claims they made.^{[citation needed]} It would be like linking an article about aliens^{[dubious – discuss]} to a medical journal on high blood pressure.^{[clarification needed]}" Famous _dog (c) 12:03, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Neuro Linguistic Programming: Rapport

Studies suggest that "confederates mimic the posture and movements of participants and showed that mimicry facilitates the smoothness of interactions and increases liking between interaction partners" Chartrand, T. L., & Bargh, J. A. (1999). The chameleon effect: The perception-behavior link and social interaction. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 76, 893–910.. As such the controversial idea of "mirroring and matching" is supported by a relatively high quality and peer reviewed study.

Additional Studies that support the concept of "Rapport": Above source repeated for easy browsing: Chartrand, T. L., & Bargh, J. A. (1999). The chameleon effect: The perception-behavior link and social interaction. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 76, 893–910. http://www.spring.org.uk/2009/11/the-chameleon-effect.php Lakin, J.L., Jefferis, V.E., Cheng, C.M. et al. Journal of Nonverbal Behavior (2003) 27: 145. doi:10.1023/A:1025389814290

Mimicry is Over Simplified by NLP: Mirroring a person that is undesirable makes the third person dislike the mimic-er

Kavanagh, L. C., Suhler, C. L., Churchland, P. S., & Winkielman, P. (2011). When it’s an error to mirror: The surprising reputational costs of mimicry. Psychological science, 22(10), 1274-1276.

First published date: September-15-2011

Based on the above sources and marketing psychology the Rapport section of NLP may not be off-base. If these studies are quality they lend support to the basic mirroring/matching concept of Rapport.