Help talk:IPA/Latin

The section on the consonental I (aka "j") is wrong. The IPA should be ʝ. See Keller. Quodfui (talk) 17:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

And, for that matter, Cicero! Quodfui (talk) 17:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Can someone in the know add the English equivalents please? --MK (talk) 06:17, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Can someone record their voice for this entire thing

Title. Peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.180.138 (talk) 16:22, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The bottom three vowels above the nasal vowel line are in English digraphs not IPA.The IPA has changed a lot since I was a little boy(especially in the last year or so)and I'm a bit of a novice at editing the tables, so could some valiant pedant fix this please? [[Logographicboobs (talk) 08:49, 31 March 2012 (UTC)]]

I believe that's the IPA convention we've been using.

The IPA hasn't changed much, but fashions in how to apply it come and go. — kwami (talk) 08:57, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Central /a/

If this article, Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Monophthongs states clearly that the open vowel was central, why Aeusoes1 reverted my edit with this comment, "rv unmotivated change of quality for /a/"? --Mahmudmasri (talk) 06:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, I checked similar edits to many of the IPA for X pages. In most instances, the changes really were unmotivated as the related language and phonology pages were either vague on the matter or explicitly contradicted the change. I probably didn't even bother looking at the Latin page because AFAIK nobody knows if the /a/ of Latin was front or central. Their position in an uncited vowel chart doesn't undo my skepticism. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 12:49, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

And, I can assure you, as the person who put that table there in the first place, that the vowel's position in the central column of that table is not due to some special knowledge about the vowels of Latin. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 13:01, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Capital letters

Why is everything in capital letters?--2.245.66.112 (talk) 21:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Because the preference for these help pages is to write the original language (Latin) examples in the native script, which in this case is the one in which I/J and U/V were identical and there was no lower case. Good question though. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:47, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

"Native script" can't be the real reason. The same isn't done at Help:IPA for Greek, which likewise covers ancient and modern forms; Help:IPA for English is not in the Anglo-Saxon Futhorc; Help:IPA for Tagalog is not in Baybayin; Help:IPA for Sanskrit is in Devanagari... the practice for the other languages isn't to use their "native" or earliest scripts, but the ones commonly used to write them today, so why is Latin an exception? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.254.153.24 (talk) 20:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

No idea. It isn't even accurate to say "there was no lower case". Rather, there was no distinction between upper and lower case; inscriptions used forms that look like upper case to us, while handwriting used forms that look more like lower case to us. And that's only for the classical era; Latin was still used in the Middle Ages, by which time there was a distinction between upper and lower case. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 05:11, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

"cui" is [kuj], not [ku.i]?

No sources at hand, but... could someone re-check this? 83.8.39.224 (talk) 18:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I searched through a few books of the Aeneid and found this line (Aeneis II:71). Its scansion indicates that CVI contains a diphthong rather than two short vowels:

CUI NEQU(E) A|PUD DANA|OS US|QUAM LOCU|S, ET SUPE|R IPSI

A line in dactylic hexameter always begins with a long vowel or diphthong; here, therefore, UI must be a diphthong. There are other cases like this where CVI appears at the beginning of a line. There are also cases where CVI occurs in the second half of a foot, and there it could be either two short vowels or a diphthong (making the foot either a dactyl or a spondee), but assuming CVI is always pronounced one way, it must be pronounced with a diphthong. — Eru·tuon 23:08, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Big small caps

I removed the <big></big> tags in footnotes. It seems redundant (although I think it's necessary in the table). The small caps are pretty tiny, so I understand why it was added. Maybe the {{unicode}} template causes this; but I think a better solution than using two font-size-related tags would be to simply use uppercase. — Eru·tuon 08:47, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Sentence case, table reorganization

Two changes need to happen here: small caps need to be replaced by sentence case, and IPA symbols need to be placed on the left, as in Help:IPA for Greek. Small caps need to be phased out of this page and Latin spelling and pronunciation, since modern editions of Latin texts typically use sentence case, and using small caps as the default is WP:OR and unhelpful to readers. Editors have objected to use of small caps in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latin § Small caps and elsewhere. Placing IPA symbols on the left is the usual practice on IPA help pages.

If there are any objections, voice them now. I will go ahead and make the changes soon, since I'm pretty sure they're commonsense and have consensus. — Eru·tuon 00:14, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Mid vowels in Ecclesiastical Latin

I started a discussion on the pronunciation of mid vowels in Ecclesiastical Latin. Head over to the WikiProject Latin talk page if you know anything about this. — Eru·tuon 01:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Split

It may be time to split this into two pages: one for Classical Latin, the other for Ecclesiastical. The complexity of the vowel table is difficult to read. I'll begin this process by creating the Classical Latin table here. — Eru·tuon 22:11, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Classical Latin

Consonants IPA Latin alphabet Examples English approximation b b bonus bean d d deus deck f f faciō fan ɡ g gravis gear h h habeō her j i iam yodel k c corpus scar kʰ ch pulcher car kʷ qu quod squash kᶣ quī squeak l l alius leave ɫ alter all m m manus man n n noster next ŋ longus song g magnus p p pater span pʰ ph philosophus pan r r rēx trilled or tapped r s s sīc send t t tempus stone tʰ th theatrum tone; stone w u uideō west z z zēlus zest

Vowels IPA Latin alphabet Examples English approximation a a animus cat (British English) aː ā fātum father e e ea similar to mate eː ē fēcī similar to made ɛ e veniō best i i via meet iː ī prīmus need ɪ i ille mit oː ō tōtus similar to code (Scottish and American English) ɔ o omnis caught uː ū ūnus food ʊ u nunc put yː ȳ Dionȳsus cued ʏ y nympha cute ae̯ ae caelum sigh; sed oe̯ oe poena boy; e in neighbor au̯ au causa cow eu̯ eu seu eh-oo ui̯ ui cui oo-ee ◌̃ː Vm Vn monstrum long nasal vowels Prosody IPA Examples ˈ Gāius /ˈɡa.i.us/ Stress (placed before the stressed syllable) . Syllable marker, generally used between vowels in hiatus

---

The table for Ecclesiastical Latin: — Eru·tuon 22:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I think the distinction between close-mid and open-mid vowels is unlikely to be made, because it requires marking of long vowels, which is not done in Ecclesiastical Latin. So, I've removed this distinction. — Eru·tuon 22:58, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Ecclesiastical Latin

Consonants IPA Latin alphabet Examples English approximation b b bonus bean d d deus deck dz z zelus adze dʒ g gens giant f f, ph facio fan ɡ g gravis gear h h habeo her; hour j j jus yodel k c, q, ch corpus scar l l locus leave m m manus man n n noster next ŋ longus song ɲ gn magnus onion p p pater span r r rēx trilled or tapped r s s sum send ʃ sc scindō sharp t t tabula stone ts portiō Botswana tʃ c centum change w u suavis west v v vest z s miserere zest

Vowels IPA Latin alphabet Examples English approximation a a animus bra (but shorter) e e esse similar to mate ae quae oe poena i i ille meet y o o hoc similar to coast (American English) u u sum moose au̯ au causa cow eu̯ eu seu eh-oo ui̯ ui cui oo-ee Prosody IPA Examples ˈ Gāius /ˈɡa.i.us/ Stress (placed before the stressed syllable) . Syllable marker, generally used between vowels in hiatus