Talk:Java Man

Requested move

• Pithecanthropus erectus → Java Man – The article is about remains of a hominid found in Java, which is, AFAIK, universally called "Java Man". When it was first found, it was classified as Pithecanthropus erectus; after decades of debate, it is now Homo erectus. Since the article is about the skeleton, not an obsolete species classification, this should be at Java Man. Compare Peking Man or Piltdown Man. --Saforrest 07:59, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Moved. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

age of skulls

Moved from article: So how old is the Java man skulls????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.44.8.82 (talk • contribs)

What are the ages of these specimens? Badagnani 22:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Radiocarbon dating and its related factors aren't very reliable, and anything that has to do with creationism (and less accepted theories) would just be refuted and removed. (I realise this is old, but the article still needs work.) --60.240.118.139 02:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Massive rewrite needed

This article needs a huge amount of work, in part because Asian Homo erectus are no longer considered direct human ancestors, and haven't been for quite some time. In particular the second-hand references attributed to Marvin Lubenow, writing a creationist book, should all be confirmed by examining the original sources. I'm also concerned about the quotation attributed to a Time magazine article, ""[Java Man] is a legimate evolutionary ancestor"--just what was in place of the bracketed phrase "Java Man" in the original sentence??? If it said "Homo erectus", then it's not nearly as damning as the person who inserted this sentence thinks. (Edited to add: I'm removing that sentence entirely; the article is online at [1] and that sentence does not appear anywhere in the article.) MrDarwin 13:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I have attempted some cleanup, but I am wary of the statement about the alleged "342 page report" and also the various claims I have flagged as needing citations. 82.33.152.5 14:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC) --- And all that stuff about "missing link" seems highly biologically naive - a braver editor than me might consider just dumping that whole sentence. 82.33.152.5 14:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Arthur Keith

I have removed the following para entirely:

Sir Arthur Keith, an anatomist of from Cambridge University, later claimed that the skull cap itself, "[is] distinctly human and reflected a brain capacity well within the range of humans living today", thus refuting Eugene Dubois's original claim that "Java man represents a stage in the devolopment of modern man from a smaller-brained ancestor".

... unless a better source for Keith can be found than Lubenow!

82.33.152.5 14:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Fairness

Is it really fair to state that it's a specimen of homo erectus, when the discoverer himself later said that it was just an a normal gibbon?

That is not what Dubois said, not even close; I've edited the sentence in the article to make it clear that such claims are not only misleading but completely false. Follow the referenced link in the article for more information. MrDarwin 15:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Can we use the primary source for this one instead of a website that sources dubois? (R2d2rox245 21:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC))

Pictures, more neutrality

This article needs un-edited pictures (like fill ins that somehow prove it), and less "CREATIONIST IS STUPID DURR" that plagues everything that has to do with evolution and creation. --60.240.118.139 02:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

This was scienticialy proven as a fraud. I demand that that is said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.131.26.124 (talk) 18:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Creationism has no place in a legitimate science article because it is not at this point legitimate science, find a source for your claim or shut up --Opcnup (talk) 22:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Creationism has every right to be considered in any article which deals with the origins of man. The evidence, if you only but knew it, for any of the evolutionary community's over-blown claims regarding the genesis of the human race is so thin on the ground that it's quite remarkable it gets the credence it does - it's not so much a missing link as a missing chain. The amount of bones found in the last 100 years which might be capable of being attributed to some sort of early model human would not, in fact, fill a single coffin and if people in general would stop rushing to condemn with such zeal everything that smacks of religion - if they would instead begin to question the astounding lack of evidence for the theories they've been force-fed since childhood - then we might all draw a little nearer to the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.247.125 (talk) 16:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Could you specify what scientific data you can provide about the Java Man?Jeff5102 (talk) 08:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's just it, isn't it...a couple of teeth, a femur and a skullcap which turned out to belong to a plain old gibbon, if I recall right. Yet, the scientific community gives Java Man a catchy name and shows us what he probably looked like and slots him in to the evolutionary chain - but based on what? A couple of teeth and a femur? And that's the point, these discussion pages are full of people raging against creationist thinking while failing to realise the astounding number of gaps in their own theories.81.156.0.191 (talk) 10:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Is it? Who has stated then, that these fossils belong to anold gibbon? Annyway, according to TalkOrigins, it was not mr. Dubois: see [2]. And I do not understand why "the scientific community" should liew about this. After all, enough fossils have been found in Africa; "the scientific community" should be happy with them.Jeff5102 (talk) 11:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Mr. IP might be confusing the Java Man with the Piltdown Man. FunkMonk (talk) 12:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

India then?

I dont know if I misunderstood then, if I did sorry then, but on the history of Indonesia it suggests that the Java man came from India here. But here I think it implies that it came from Africa here. 71.105.87.54 (talk) 06:07, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Man

Wow this is interesting stuff dude —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.176.182.76 (talk) 13:29, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Merge?

Merge with Trinil 2? Discuss. Kortoso (talk) 21:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Hasan di Tiro's writings against Indonesia and Javanese

Hassan called Indonesian rule over Aceh and other places like East Timor, West Papua and the Moluccas as Javanese domination.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ArvtbBOPwGIC&pg=PT125&dq=tiro+javanese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F-A1U-3WIqi0sQSw0IGQDw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tiro%20javanese&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=T61pQx1w3soC&pg=PA70&dq=In+Hasan+di+Tiro's+terms,+“indonesians”+are+a+“non-existent+human+species”+(di+Tiro+1984a,+68).+In+his+writings,+the+very+idea+of+Indonesia+is+an+absurd+falsehood,+a+thin+façade+covering+Javanese+dominance.+His+“redeclaration+of+independence+”&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c_M1U6T4DMLIsASp-YKQBQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA

Tiro engaged in racist rhetoric against Javanese, calling them "barbarians", "stupid", "insolent", relatives of monkeys, and insinuated that they were descended from Pithecanthropus erectus in his play, "The drama of acehnese history 1873-1978"

http://books.google.com/books?id=ArvtbBOPwGIC&pg=PT126#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=T61pQx1w3soC&pg=PA71&dq=At+one+point+he+reminds+his+readers+that+monkeys+were+“a+very+distant+relative+of+the+Javanese,+but+relatives+nevertheless”+(212).+Elsewhere+he+returns+to+the+theme+that+the+Javanese+“have+strong+traces+of+pithecanthropus+erectus+lines”+(+317).&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m_Q1U-aQELPUsAT6nIBw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA

The drama of acehnese history 1873 1978

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BywGzWY70a8gZjk5NTI3ZTEtMDc3Ni00ZDQ3LWE0NDUtYTQyMTU1OTJhNDll/preview?pli=1

http://en.bookfi.org/book/1320922

http://bookre.org/reader?file=1320922

http://www.acehbooks.org/search/detail/4169?language=ind

http://www.acehbooks.org/pdf/00371.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/89450652

http://www.worldcat.org/title/drama-of-achehnese-history-1873-1978-a-paly-in-viii-acts/oclc/525862312

http://mbox.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/06/04/citizen-hasan-di-tiro-dies-‘dignified-end-conflict’.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=ArvtbBOPwGIC&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125&dq=The+drama+of+acehnese+history+1873+1978&source=bl&ots=swnpl-Xn2l&sig=iYp8SMGsKGXRq3EPqbVDO3pwYeA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6UBYU-SPOsvMsQSMzoKIBA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=The%20drama%20of%20acehnese%20history%201873%201978&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=M5SpAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA247&lpg=PA247&dq=The+drama+of+acehnese+history+1873+1978&source=bl&ots=Gh4KRJdxKp&sig=O8TrO3iguBLp5WZLBUT8agNf5vs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6UBYU-SPOsvMsQSMzoKIBA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=The%20drama%20of%20acehnese%20history%201873%201978&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=fG_eSAAACAAJ&dq=The+drama+of+acehnese+history+1873+1978&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7EFYU9ygB6TQsQSIroDABA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y8UPKFrtjb0C&pg=PA424&lpg=PA424&dq=The+drama+of+acehnese+history+1873+1978&source=bl&ots=uuiectoKuV&sig=h41XSLdPfXerwhZbIVA6bEhmue8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6UBYU-SPOsvMsQSMzoKIBA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBg

Rajmaan (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Lede image

Might this be something? [3] -- -- CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 08:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

@CFCF: Thank you, this looks interesting! Do you know when this photo was first published? This will determine whether it is in the public domain, and therefore whether we can use it on this page. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 08:22, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

@Madalibi: http://collections.stanford.edu/copyrightrenewals/bin/search/simple/process?query=The+hall+of+the+age+of+man gives no hits on the book title, indicating no editions had their copyright renewed, and have thus been in the public domain since 1968. http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001632299 gives 4 editions, you can choose the one with the best image and upload it to commons with the {{PD-US-not renewed}} tag. Thanks, -- CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 08:28, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

@CFCF: If it was first published in the United States in 1921, as the "hathitrust.org" entry seems to indicate, then it's in the public domain in the US and we can tag it with {{PD-1923}}, which applies to older material than {{PD-US-not renewed}}. The problem is that without the book in hand to scan it, I have no idea how to upload that picture, because it's not an electronic file. Any idea how to do it? Madalibi (talk) 08:46, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll do it this evening. -- CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 11:28, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

@CFCF: Great, that would be even simpler! Thank you! Madalibi (talk) 12:51, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

There you go, if you wish to use it please do. I chose the 1929 edition as it was the highest quality. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions, or find any more images in that book.

CASE II Photograph by J. K.THE TRINIL RACE OF JAVA, Pithecanthropus erectus, i lle Pesteoeee A41. Loft femur; almost entirely manlike, proving that Pithecanthropus walked erect.2. Portion of lower jaw containing right first premolar and part of root of right canine.3. Three teeth: left lower first premolar; left upper second molar; right upper third molar.4. Inside of cranium, showing exact size and form of the upper three.fifths of the brain, which equals the minimum size of the normal human brain.5. Top of cranium (carefully colored directly from original).6. Restored skull.7. Half models of brain and skull, joined to show size of brain and its relation to the skull.8. Restored skull, with soft tissues added to left side to show size and form of the head.9. Bust modeled on restored skull.1-5 are cacs made from original fossils and presented to the Museum by Prof'sor Dr. Eugene Dubois; 6-9 are restorations by J. H. McGregor.

-- -- CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 13:49, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Wonderful! Thank you! We'll see where this fits once the text has grown a little. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 13:58, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Scope of the article

A question: is this article devoted narrowly to the Homo erectus fossils found by Eugène Dubois in 1891–92 – the most important of which is Trinil 2 – or more broadly to all the specimens of Homo erectus that have been found on Java Island, including in Sangiran, Mojokerto, and Ngandong, all of which can also be loosely called "Java Man"? Madalibi (talk) 13:15, 30 June 2014 (UTC)