Help talk:IPA/Welsh

English equivalents

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a column of "nearest English equivalents" as do some of the other IPA pages e.g. Wikipedia:IPA for French? This could be adapted from the examples in the Welsh orthography article. --Dr Greg (talk) 20:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. That's a good idea. You should do it. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck, you'll need it. Especially for the vowels. (There is a reason I didn't do a "nearest English equivalents" column to begin with.) +An gr 12:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've made my own attempt at this, concurrently with Angr, which got held up when the website seemed to crash earlier today. Rather than overwrite the current version I've saved mine at User:Dr Greg/IPA for Welsh. I suffer from the disadvantage I don't speak Welsh, so my version is a copy-&-paste from several sources, mostly Wikipedia:IPA for English, where available, or Welsh orthography if not. I also consulted Wikipedia:IPA and wikibooks:Welsh/Pronunciation.

Unfortunately the sources I consulted failed to distinguish between some dipthongs, and there are a few entries I found nothing for at all.

So I'd invite anyone who is fluent in both Welsh and English to compare my version with the current version and decide how best to merge them.

By the way, this article hasn't been categorised yet! --Dr Greg (talk) 16:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not an article, it's in Wikipedia: namespace. It could still be categorized, but it shouldn't be in the same categories as articles, I think. +An gr 22:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed examples

I've got reservations about some of these examples:

dʒ diawl, garej just

I most certainly wouldn't pronounce "diawl" with a "j" sound, it's roughly "dee-owl", also

m̥ fy mhen, cymharu wormhole

Cymharu (to compare) is spelt c y m h a r u, not c y mh a r u and is pronounced as three syllables with the first two breaking between the m and the h. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clwyd

Pronunciation has been requested for Clwyd. Am I right that it's [ˈklʊɨd]? Lfh (talk) 14:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks right to me. +An gr 14:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[ˈklʊˑɨd] and [ˈklʊid] would be better representations for north and south pronunciations respectively. Is it a good idea to include both pronunciations in all articles that have [ɨ/ɪ], seeing as there is no one standard pronunciation for both in Welsh? Llusiduonbach (talk) 11:58, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pontarddulais

Could someone please fix the Welsh/English IPA at Pontarddulais, and/or add the English if they know it. Thanks Lfh (talk) 17:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Llyn Efyrnwy

Llyn Efyrnwy - [ɛˈvərnʊɨ]? Lfh (talk) 21:17, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks right to me. +An gr 07:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Caersws

[kɑːɨrˈsuːs]? (Sorry for the repetitive theme, but I like to be sure.) Lfh (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My first guess would be [ˈkɑːɨrsʊs], but I don't know for sure. +An gr 18:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you're currently going through a specificic body of Welsh articles to give IPA, you could do them all at once and have someone like Angr look through them afterwards. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:10, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but I think that's pretty much it anyway. I'll just tag Caersws as needing IPA. I've only heard it from BBC football announcers, in English, who stress the second syllable. Thanks Lfh (talk) 16:41, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there are Welsh words that are stressed on the final syllable, but they're not common. What's more common is that Welsh words sound to English speakers like they're stressed on the final syllable, because in Welsh, the final syllable of the word is associated with a high pitch (whether it's stressed or not), and that high pitch sounds to English speakers like stress. So maybe Caersws is stressed on the final syllable, but maybe English speakers just think it is. +An gr 19:51, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I knew stress was tricky in Welsh. Good thing I asked, I guess. If I do find anymore that need some pronunciation fixing I think I'll just tag them. Lfh (talk) 20:12, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

sound file for 'll'

Do we think the recording here is ok to link to this guide? Or would that set an unwieldy precedent vis-a-vis the fact that most IPA projects have opted not to have sound links? Lfh (talk) 11:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a link to the article Voiceless alveolar lateral fricative; the sound file can be found there. That's probably enough, don't you think? +An gr 12:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's probably better actually. Thanks. Lfh (talk) 13:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm no expert on IPA, but... (sound of 'y')

Can't say I'm familiar with IPA, but Welsh is my first language. I edited the English sounding equivalent for 'y' from 'about' to 'the', but the edit was reversed, with the comment "the varies in pronunciation depending on context". That's a fair point, but to say that 'y' as in ysgrifenyddes sounds like the 'a' in about is way off. Can someone suggest a better one? Or is it the IPA symbol itself ə that's incorrect in the first place?--Rhyswynne (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The word the is either pronounced so that it has the same vowel as about or the same vowel as see. If about isn't a good example, I don't know if any English word would be and we can peg this as an approximation. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rhyswynne, your user page says you're from near Denbigh, so I assume you speak Northern Welsh. If you came from northern Pembrokeshire, I could understand your saying that the "y"s in ysgrifenyddes are nothing like the "a" in "about", because in northern Pembrokeshire, "y" is always pronounced like "i", so the word sounds like "isgrifeniddes". But you're not from there, so that can't be the explanation. What about the word "buttock"? Do the "y"s in "ysgrifenyddes" sound like either of the vowels in that word? +An gr 08:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While the Pembrokshire accent is quite unique, I don't agree that people from Pembrokshire (or anywhere) pronounce ysgrifenyddes as isgrifeniddes, but buttock is certainly a much better example. I'm changing it now.--Rhyswynne (talk) 09:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not all of Pembrokeshire, it's just in Pencaer and the areas around Croes-goch and Puncheston. And they don't pronounced all "y"s like "i"s; sometimes they pronounce "y" like (Welsh) "w". Examples (taken from Pembrokeshire Welsh: A Phonological Study by G. M. Awbery, ISBN 0-8545-060-0) include ysgol 'school' pronounced "isgol", cryfach 'stronger' pronounced "crifach", ceffylau 'horses' pronounced "ceffile", llyfr 'book' pronounced "llifir" (and llyfrau pronounced "llifre"); bygwth 'to threaten' pronounced "bwgwth", dyrni 'to thresh' pronounced "dwrni", and ffasiynol 'fashionable' pronounced "fassiwnol". But the point is that this area of Pembroke doesn't have the /ə/ sound at all. +An gr 10:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

English-speakers learning Welsh (e.g. me, though not very much and a long time ago) are often taught to map Welsh /ə/ onto English /ʌ/ [as in "butter"], aren't they? I've seen this advice in books, and John C. Wells also recommended it on his blog, pointing out that English-speakers who map Welsh /ə/ onto English /ə/ end up saying things like [ˈkʊmɹi] ["koom-ree"]. (Can find the link if necessary.) I have also seen y transcribed as both [ʌ] and [ɐ] on Wikipedia. Lfh (talk) 09:14, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But surely the purpose of the entry in the table is not how to pronounce "y" in Welsh, it's to give examples in Welsh and English of how to pronounce /ə/? The first syllable of "butter" is definitely wrong (the second syllable is correct). (That's a fact about IPA and English and has nothing to do with Welsh.) I don't speak Welsh, so I can't comment whether "ysgrifenyddes" is a valid example of /ə/ or not. -- Dr Greg talk 19:08, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You've got to keep in mind that the same symbol used in two different languages or dialects can be different sounds. To Rhyswynne's ears at least, the first syllable of butter sounds closer. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 19:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dr Greg - you can listen to the Welsh /ə/ at Wales (the second sound file).

Does anyone know what the teaching materials say? Another option is to say "between about and butter". Lfh (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Describing a vowel as "between" two other vowels is never useful to non-linguists. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe not. But it's been done at e.g. the Catalan and Hindi/Urdu keys, which is what made me think of it. Lfh (talk) 20:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate different dialects or accents have different pronunciations, but if the general consensus is that "ysgrifenyddes" sounds like "butter", you should be using /ʌ/ instead of /ə/. Isn't the whole point of IPA that it provides a language-independent guide? To pronounce something written in IPA, you shouldn't need to know whether it's English, Welsh, French or whatever, the pronunciation should be encoded in the IPA symbols. Shouldn't it? -- Dr Greg talk 20:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, IPA transcriptions pretty much have to be language-dependent; the symbols don't exist in a vacuum. Using the symbol "ʌ" to represent the sound of "butter" is a convention of English phonetic transcription; that sound isn't actually terribly close to the "ideal" pronunciation of [ʌ] as a cardinal vowel of the IPA. +An gr 20:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'y' again

The Welsh hills and mountains seem to have been systematically written with [ɐ] rather than [ə] for "y" (e.g. Penycloddiau, Mynydd Bodafon), and also with [æ] for [a]. Could these be changed automatically with AWB or something like that? Lfh (talk) 14:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No /y/ for "u"?

I can't see any example for the vowel u, which I've always heard as either /y/ or (rarely) /ɨ/. Is this an oversight? — OwenBlacker (Talk) 17:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen a description of Welsh that says u is pronounced as /y/. Everything I've read says it's /ɨ/ in North Welsh and /i/ in South Welsh. It may have been /ʉ/ in Middle Welsh. +An gr 20:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The examples here for u are punt and llun. You can hear it in the word Cymru on the Wales page, where it's given as [ɨ]. Lfh (talk) 14:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Talking of u - is it long or short in munud? Lfh (talk) 18:01, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the first one is long in the south and short in the north, and the second one is short everywhere. +An gr 14:48, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They're both short, both in north and south Wales, despite the spelling. In the south you sometimes hear muned [ˈmɪnˑɛd] as opposed to munud [ˈmɪnˑɪd].Llusiduonbach (talk) 11:50, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau

The IPA at Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau could do with some attention (stress and vowels in Wlad). Lfh (talk) 16:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Penysarn

I've added this name on request - [pɛnəˈsarn]. Please correct if necessary. Lfh (talk) 16:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Penysarn#Name says the ‹y› is silent, which suggests [ˈpɛnsarn] or [pɛnˈsarn]. +An gr 16:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. I read that sentence, but somehow managed to miss its significance entirely, in that peculiar way the brain sometimes behaves. I'll scratch the IPA for now, and ask the OP. Lfh (talk) 17:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Diphthongs

How about this for a reworked diphthongs table?

Diphthongs
IPA (north Wales)	IPA (south Wales)	Examples	English equivalents
ai	ai	tai
aɨ	ai	cau
aˑɨ	ai	cae
au	au	llaw
eˑu	ɛu	llew
ɛi	ɛi	Seisnig
ɛɨ	ɛi	gwneud, haeddu
ɛu	ɛu	tewi
ɪu	ɪu	lliw
ɨu	ɪu	Duw, menyw
oˑɨ	ɔi	coed
ɔi	ɔi	osgoi
ɔɨ	ɔi	coeden
ɔu	ɔu	osgowch
uˑɨ	ʊi	gŵyl
ʊɨ	ʊi	mwya

Some thoughts:

I need to add English 'equivalents' of course.
Because the north has more vowel distinctions than southern varieties (short or long vowels in diphthongs, the presence of /ɨ/) I feel the need to separate the two, as does Peter Wynn Thomas in his authoritative Gramadeg y Gymraeg.
I need to add /əi əɨ əu/ maybe, though I think too much prominence is given to these on Wikipedia. The modern realisations are [ɛi ɛɨ ɛu] by most, though the [ə]-initial diphthongs are preserved by a few speakers, and in formal singing, although this is changing. [əu] occurs in, e.g., bywyd [ˈbəuɨ̞d ˈbəuɪd] although I'd prefer to analyse this as [ˈbəwɨ̞d ˈbəwɪd]. In fact, I'd prefer to analyse any diphthongs ending in [i u] as ending in [j w] as I remember J C Wells says is perfectly acceptable in one of his books (can't remember which sorry, haven't got it). This would make more sense (I think) when discussing half-long consonants and vowels in stressed multisyllabic words in the traditional accent, e.g. cf. Hwntw, blinder, tonnau, tonau, gwledydd as roughly north-westeren: [ˈhʊntˑu ˈblɪndˑɛr ˈtɔnˑa ˈtɔnˑa ˈgʷledˑɪð (see next point), southern (accents with semi-long vowels): [ˈhʊntˑu ˈblɪnˑdɛr ˈtɔnˑɛ ˈtoˑnɛ ˈgleˑdɪð], therefore, e.g. lleiaf, cawod as [ˈɬɛjˑa ˈkawˑod]. This does, however, present the problem of trascribing the semi-vowel equivalent to [ɨ]. If [i] has [j], and [u] has [w], what would [ɨ] have? I'm sure someone with a better understanding of phonetics/phonology/IPA than me could come up with the correct symbol. [j̙] maybe?
Re [ˈgʷledˑɪð] I guess I need to include examples of when ⟨y⟩ doesn't represent /ɨ/ in final position, but rather /i/ on Welsh orthography. (Sorry, this is a note to self.)
I don't think I've ever seen it transcribed, but do /iˑu ɨˑu/ exist in north Wales? Any Gogs (northerners) about?

Llusiduonbach (talk) 13:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Re /əi/ etc. vs. /ɛi/: as always on Wikipedia, this has to be backed up with reliable, published sources rather than personal observation. I've always seen these diphthongs transcribed with ə, but if newer sources use ɛ, it can be mentioned at Welsh phonology and possibly represented here (depending on how widespread the new transliteration is). Angr (talk) 22:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, you're right, it'd be a good idea to look up what the most recent studies say (though, sadly, the research on Welsh today, in Wales at least, seems to be more literature- rather than linguistic-based). Thomas gives /ɛ ə/ at least equal weight when writing /ɛi əi/ and /ɛɨ əɨ/ in Gramadeg y Gymraeg (1996, based on the research presented in Cymraeg, Cymrâg, Cymrêg in 1989) and Griffiths has the same in Geiriadur yr Academi (1995). A side observation is that adult learners of Welsh are also taught the pronunciations [ɛi ɛɨ] in classes and their learning materials, e.g. Meek in the WJEC's Cwrs Mynediad (2005) has "eu, ei and ey as in the English say". Llusiduonbach (talk) 12:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]