Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Soap Operas/Archive 5

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Two articles up for deletion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fusion Cosmetics and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pine Valley (All My Children) for the discussions. I "voted" neutral on the first, and a definite keep on the second. Flyer22 (talk) 16:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Daily Star and Australian Soaps

I'm starting a discussion with the aim of building a consensus of whether we endsorse the use of the Daily Star as a source in Australian soap opera articles. The reason I ask is because it is often seen as the low end of the tabloid sources and is frown upon at WP. However, it does have credibility in this field of use IMO.

My reasoning for this is because it is owned by Northern & Shell - this company also own Channel 5 - the Channel that air Australian soap operas Neighbours and Home and Away. So due to their close affliciation with the soaps - they have exclusive content, advertise with them and interview the production - so therefore what do we think about making it a rule of thumb that they can be used in this context?RaintheOne ^BAM 14:15, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Various soap opera articles have been nominated for deletion

Gh87 (talk · contribs) has tagged various soap opera articles for deletion, currently mostly dealing with All My Children characters. Some with just prods; others with an actual deletion debate. I don't believe that Gh87 is sufficiently searching for notability in enough of these cases. For example, he or she tagged Zoe (All My Children) as possibly non-notable,[1] when just that one Associated Press reference is enough to establish notability.[2] It's like the editor didn't analyze that source and believed this character was only written about once in a major news source. The simple Google search Zoe transgender All My Children shows otherwise. And there's more than enough about the character on Google Books.[3] and a bit on Google Scholar.[4]

I'm alerting the project about this for those who would like to comment in the deletion debates and/or try to save these articles. Some of the articles don't even warrant the effort of a deletion debate and can simply be redirected to a "list of" article. List of All My Children characters and List of All My Children miscellaneous characters are examples. 174.137.184.36 (talk) 18:54, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Do not try and influence other editors decision. You just have to leave a quick note and do not include your view, because it comes across that you are asking us to vote in the same way. Besides, Zoe is not nominated for deletion, so I'm unsure as to why you are using her as your example. Btw, love the fact you found all of those sources for that character. She has so much potential so maybe if you could post those sources on her talk page or add some?RaintheOne ^BAM 19:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I was not trying to influence other editors' decisions. There is nothing wrong with saying I don't believe that Gh87 is sufficiently searching for notability in some of the cases. That is letting editors know that some of these nominations may be ill-conceived and that it will take careful analyzing before voting "Keep" or "Delete." I gave the Zoe example because it backs what I believe to be insufficient research on the part of this editor. If the editor did not bother to do a thorough search in the case of Zoe, which he or she clearly didn't, then it is not at all unreasonable to wonder just how many more cases he or she failed to thoroughly research before deeming them non-notable and/or worthy of deletion. 174.137.184.36 (talk) 19:22, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

That is exactly my point. You are letting editors know something they have to weigh up for themselves. That is your opinion that he may or may not be nominating on a whim. But in saying that may influence a decision. We call it Canvassing. Again, Zoe IS NOT nominated for deletion, so why are you assosiating it with this editor's AFDs? Zoe may be notable, but is that to say the others are?RaintheOne ^BAM 20:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Your point is faulty. If an editor is nominating things for deletion on a whim, all because he or she sees no notability established in the article, that is a threat to the project and should be brought to the attention of the project. You mean to tell me that if such a thing was being done with medical articles, an editor would not bring it up at WP:MEDS? I dispute that. You should also read what are acceptable aspects of WP:CANVASSING. I don't appreciate you lying in the Hayley Vaughan Santos deletion debate. Alerting a project that related articles are up for deletion and that they may want to attempt to save any of them is acceptable! I did not say "Save these articles." I reported what I believed to be a threat to the project and said, "I'm alerting the project about this for those who would like to comment in the deletion debates and/or try to save these articles." I already said why I provided the Zoe example. You don't get it, for whatever reason.

Thank you for turning this into being about me and painting me as some corrupt IP address, instead of trying to help. Sarcasm. 174.137.184.36 (talk) 16:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you should have pharsed it like this "Hello. There are currently a number of articles nominated for deletion by the same editor. Some may be notable others may not. Your comments on the matter would be welcomed." - The line I think you jumped was when you began saying "I believe they are all notable, I think the editor is doing it on a whim, I think this, I think that - please vote with me" Which you openly admitted when you said you wanted to get some WP:SOAPS members to save them. Anyway, probably best to forget about it now, no biggie and no one else has taken issue here. I'm not going to take it any further as you have not got any bad intent.RaintheOne ^BAM 16:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I did not say they are all notable. Nor did I say "Please vote with me." Stop putting your own spin on what I said and reading so much more into what was said. I know that some of these characters, like Gillian Andrassy, cannot meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines. I did not say I wanted to get some WP:SOAP members to save these articles. I repeat, I said: "I'm alerting the project about this for those who would like to comment in the deletion debates and/or try to save these articles." See that? I said "and/or try to save these articles." The nominator seemingly does not understand WP:Notability as well as he or she should. If you look at some of his or her other All My Children nominations, the editor asserts that characters from a cancelled show are non-notable, which is ridiculous and problematic. There are many characters from cancelled shows that are notable. Erica Kane will always be notable, no matter what, and the same is true for notable characters from shows that ended their runs naturally. This was pointed out to the editor. Characters do not cease to be notable because a show ceases to dish out new episodes. Furthermore, characters like Hayley Vaughan may not deserve Wikipedia articles, but that doesn't mean the article should be put up for deletion. Redirecting such articles takes care of the problem. This editor, when IPs or new-ish/otherwise inexperienced editors recreate the articles, throws a hissy fit and nominates them for deletion instead of just redirecting again and then reporting those users and/or getting the redirects protected. And that is ridiculous 174.137.184.36 (talk) 17:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Instead of making a song and dance about this, why don't you go and prove some are notable by adding sourced content to them. That is what I'm doing for Sunset Beach. They get deleted because editors claim they are notable but are not willing to put in the effort to prove their claims. Come on, lets atleast add some sources and establish the notability.RaintheOne ^BAM 17:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, at least I'm not the only one making a song and dance about this. Postdlf has been making similar comments about this user's deletion nominations.[5] That diff-link is just one of the debates that Postdlf has said that in.

I'll do what I can to help soap opera articles, if I can. By relaying this message here, I was trying to help. Got my head bitten off instead. That's life. 174.137.184.36 (talk) 23:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

And even you recognized the faults in this user's prods and nominations.[6] But still, I guess I'm the bad guy. Yep, that's life. 174.137.184.36 (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

No I noticed one or two, did I contest the endless list of non notable soap characters? Nope. Sunset Beach and Randy Spelling is what I meant. Postdlf wasn't faulting AFD choices, rather than pointing out that they are not needed if merging is agreed upon. I never said you are the bad guy. People do misundertand each other though.RaintheOne ^BAM 00:36, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

You make it sound like I was contesting the endless list of non-notable soap characters. I wasn't. What I said is right above. And Postdlf was indeed faulting AFD choices. The link shows that. He made the three points I made. That this user nominates articles for deletion that should really just be redirected, doesn't research the cases well and jumps to the conclusion that no sources in an article means the article topic is non-notable and should therefore be deleted, and asserts that the cancellation of a show makes a character non-notable. Everything I said. Postdlf just has more credibility saying it since he isn't some IP that just popped up (not to mention, he's an administrator). 174.137.184.36 (talk) 08:24, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

RaintheOne: Maybe you should avoid being rude, and maybe we can take this discussion to the direction it needs to go. Thanks.CloudKade11 (talk) 04:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not being rude CloudKade11 - You always accuse people of being rude across a number of talk pages. Please stop disrupting numerous conversations by calling members rude who do not share the same opinion as yourself.RaintheOne ^BAM 19:07, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

You may not see yourself as rude, but to others, you present yourself as rude. I read the conversation above and the reply you left to the IP on my talk page. I don't know about you, but "Stop moaning.." sounds a little rude to me. Hopefully you take this into consideration and reply without anything that may seem remotely negative. CloudKade11 (talk) 01:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

We all see conversations out of proportion at the end of the day. All I want is for everyone to get along and improve wikipedia. :) I'm sure we can can work together cloudkade.RaintheOne ^BAM 04:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Im happy to help to!!!! Touching words, Rain, ;) Joking!!! MayhemMario 12:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I swear you always wink at Rain, Mario o.o GSorby – Ping! 12:58, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Im preety sure im hearing de ja vu GSorby! Also, I think that in the context I was saying that, it was 'a wink' time! Sigh..... :/ MayhemMario 13:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Storylines

Sorry to bring this up again but i've recently had a GA nomination failed because the plot was unsourced. I brought up the recent discussion here and the style guidelines but apparently a localised consensus can't override a global consensus. Does anyone know any more on this and does this mean we have to source sl's still? D4nnyw14 (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

No I didnt think we had to source storylines nor leads- but maybe I am in the same position as you- what was this GA?! MayhemMario 16:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Darren Osborne, although it was pretty bad and the storylines were too big but i've started fixing the article. The reviewer knows more than me but i wanted to get others opinions on if we need to source plots even though we have the guidelines. D4nnyw14 (talk) 16:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Anyone? D4nnyw14 (talk) 17:00, 1 November 2011 (UTC)