Help talk:IPA/English

needs audio

This IPA stuff is way too confusing for most people to get. Why not have an audio reference for US English at least? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slides2008 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 8 March 2009

Perhaps audio would be more appropriate at IPA chart for English dialects. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Questions about Digraphs

I was just wontering, why is it that whenever I read IPA charts, they always list [tʃ] (letter t and small letter esh) and [dʒ] (letter d and small letter ezh) instead of the digraphs [ʧ] (small letter tesh digraph) and [ʤ] (small letter dezh digraph)? In other words, why are they always written as two letters (t and ʃ) and not just the one single digraph [ʧ]? Wouldn't it make more sense this way? Also, [ɩr] and [ɩər] are listed as different "R-colored" vowel sets, but don't they sound the same? And doesn't the same go for [ʌr] and [ɜr]; [ɔr] and [ɔər]? Cloudy fox 001 (talk) 22:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Affricate digraphs are no longer part of the IPA.
2. Not all of our readers speak midwestern American English.

kwami (talk) 23:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

To extrapolate a little on the above response, there are dialects that make a distinction between long and short vowels before /r/ while other dialects, including my own, don't make such a distinction. This can be confusing, but it's an attempt to be neutral. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

easier access

Would it be possible to create some type of popup, expandable table, etc for specific pronunciations? i.e: a page has a pronunciation listed by ipa standards, and, when clicked on, creates a popup that lists only the sounds used in the word, in order, followed by a link to the ipa page itself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.82.149 (talk) 02:06, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Diphthongs

/oʊ/ and /eɪ/ or diphthongues, but not listed in the diphthong section of the table. Why is that? Imho they should be moved. Jalwikip (talk) 13:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I also don't think "ju:" should be listed as a diphthong (it's a consonant+vowel combination, and possibly shouldn't be listed at all).--Kotniski (talk) 14:48, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that the rationale for putting /oʊ/ and /eɪ/ in the monophthong section might have been that they are pronounced [oː] and [eː] in some dialects of English. However, I agree that it is quite confusing this way. If we transcribe them as /oʊ/ and /eɪ/, we should put them in the diphthong section. — Emil J. 15:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should rename the categories. Currently the "diphthongs" do not have a second column for their rhotic versions. /ju:/ should be illustrated somewhere, because it is realized differently in different dialects. It may not be a phoneme, but then arguably neither are the diphthongs, /hw/, or /ŋg/. kwami (talk) 06:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Well I think /oʊ/ and /eɪ/ need to be paired with their /r/-equivalents /ɔər/ and /ɛər/. Which aren't really "r-coloured" in the wikilinked sense. The current table is a patchwork of confusingly juxtaposed structures. Here's my proposed rework:

---

Vowels
IPA	Examples	IPA	Examples
Plain vowels		R-colored vowels
æ	bad, pat	ær	barrow, marry
ɑː	balm, father	ɑr	bar, mar, party
ɒ	bod, pot, cot	ɒr	moral, forage
ɔː	bawd, paw, caught	ɔr	born, for
ʊ	good, foot, put	ʊər	boor, moor
uː	booed, food
ʌ	bud, butt	ʌr	hurry, Murray
		ɜr	bird, myrrh, furry (or /ɝː/ )
ɛ	bed, pet
		ɛr	berry, merry
ɪ	bid, pit	ɪr	mirror
i	happy, city, toffee
		ɪər	beer, mere
iː	bead, peat, feet
Glide diphthongs
oʊ	beau, hoe, poke	ɔər	boar, four, more
juː	beauty, hue, pew, dew	jʊər	pure, endure, curious
eɪ	bay, hey, fate	ɛər	bear, mare, Mary
"True" diphthongs
aɪ	buy, high, ride, write	aɪr	byre, hire, fiery
aʊ	bough, how, pout	aʊr	sour, dowry
ɔɪ	boy, hoy	ɔɪr	coir, Moira
Reduced vowels
ə	Rosa’s, above	ər	runner, mercer (or /ɚ/ )
ɨ or ɪ	roses, business
Syllabic consonants
əl	bottle	—
əm	rhythm
ən	button

---

And I thought about putting a ʊr row in for courier. jnestorius^(talk) 00:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest "vowel before R" instead of "R-colo(u)red vowel". In most non-North American accents, the first vowels in mIrror, mErry, mArry, sOrry, hUrry are phonetically damn-near identical to those in kIt, drEss, trAp, lOt/clOth, and strUt. the fact that a "R" succeeds is irrelevant. Grover cleveland (talk) 21:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

That would certainly be an improvement. A more radical rework would be something like:

IPA	VC example	Vr# example	VrV example
æ	bad /bæd/	-	carrot /ˈkærət/
ɑ(ː)	palm /pɑːm/	bar /bɑr/	barring /ˈbɑrɪŋ/
ɒ	pot /pɒt/	-	moral /mɒrəl/
ɔ(ː)	caught /kɔːt/	war /wɔr/	aura/ˈɔrə/
ʊ	good /gʊd/	-	-
ʊər	-	moor /mʊər/	mooring /ˈmʊərɪŋ/
uː	food /fuːd/	-	-
etc.

improper reference

"That's in Gimson that 'r' used for run. IPA uses ɹ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.74 (talk) 11:57, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

It isn't just Gimson. Lots of well respected phoneticians and phonologists use /r/ to represent the English r-sound, especially (as here) at the phonemic/broad-transcription level. —Angr 20:20, 20 February 2009 (UTC)"

Are they mentioned as references? Anyway that's completely irrelevant, I'm afraid, whether anyone else (regardless of his respect) uses it besides the Gimson system. The reference for IPA was mentioned as improper, as it indeed is improper. Misleading to confuse broad transcription with IPA. There is no broad transcription within IPA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.40 (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The IPA is just a writing system. It can be used for broad or narrow transcription, or even orthography (which is why there are things like capital ɛ, capital ɔ, and capital ŋ. —Angr 18:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

IPA by itself no. You need a 'System' that defines the semantics of characters. just mentioned. I mean if there is some intention to improve quality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.40 (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you do need a system that defines the semantics of the characters. And in broad transcription, that system can define /r/ as the initial consonant of English "red" and the final consonant of English "bar" in rhotic accents, however those consonants may be phonetically realized. But the same is true of narrow transcription - even then you have to use certain conventions and define what you want the characters to mean. The IPA symbols by themselves are idealizations; they do not define specific sounds in all their phonetic detail. Saying "there is no broad transcription within IPA" shows considerable ignorance of what the IPA is and how it's intended to be used. —Angr 05:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's intended to be used as a phonetic transcription, but that's all the same. It has nothing to do with the missing reference for the system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.40 (talk) 09:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Schadenfreude

OH GOD, SAY THAT YOU'RE JUST KIDDING!

Aha, it's clear the user who complains for so long about IPA characters lives in America. In foreign countries IPA is actually taught, because it is simply needed. No need to mention the meaning of 'foreign countries' right? (sorry:) I don't know what this complaining is about: Each and every dictionary here uses IPA, and probably all over Europe. Even English language classes start with IPA characters for English. Etc.

"for wikipedia to be useful to a larger group of people" (I don't want to be offensive, but 6 400 000 000 people live outside North America. Large enough group of people?) "You need culture to appreciate culture."

(Reflection on "IPA Pronunciation Irrelevant To Most Visitors to Wikipedia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:Pronunciation/Archive_1) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.40 (talk) 17:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, if someone is interested in a foreign language, he only needs to learn 30-40 symbols. Really huge effort? Oh! We learn a complete English language instead, and don't complain (people in foreign countries). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.40 (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah btw why I'm about to write... May I help you with pronouncing Schadenfreude. It's something like shaadenfhroyde. At least people shall realize it, but that's far from good. Now stop complaining please, it sounds so sick. If not taught, there MAY be some problems with US education system, and not with IPA or with Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.40 (talk) 17:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Using something other than IPA to augment IPA pronunciations is appropriate for English words since many English speakers are from the United States. Perhaps Americans are missing out in being unfamiliar with the IPA, but Americans make up a sizeable amount of our editors and our readers. For foreign languages, our policy is to use the language's orthography and the IPA (and maybe a romanization system for systems that write in non-latin based orthographies). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:00, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I was actually thinking, maybe we should even cancel meter because not taught in US :)) Btw why does one come to a page "IPA for English" at all if he's completely dumb for IPA??! Uhh :-\

oh and btw I didn't want to sound sarcastic with American people, only I am about to scratch my own face because of the stupidity of a few. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.40 (talk) 09:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't see what your point is. Do you have something constructive to suggest or did you just come here to insult people? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 17:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there is any point to discuss this subject. "I didn't want to sound sarcastic with American people": I think that's clear. Maybe my English is not perfect, but I don't think I insulted anyone. If you read thoroughly you found why I came here and what I suggested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.63 (talk) 13:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

You'll have to be clearer if you want me to get it. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 17:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. Very simple. I wrote to make that looooong discussion short, and suggested people not to complain about something they are lazy to learn. IPA is useful for many people, no matter whether it's known in a specific country or no. or some other strange local systems are taught for i don't know what reason —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.236.56.161 (talk) 10:32, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Need additions...

ɛ bed, pet ɛr berry, merry
can ALSO be
e bed, pet er berry, merry
(BOTH ARE CORRECT)

AND

ɜr bird, myrrh, furry (or /ɝː/ ^[10])
SHOULD BE
ɜ:^(r) bird, myrrh, furry (or /ɝː/ ^[10])
OR
ɜ:r bird, myrrh, furry (or /ɜ:^(r)/ or /ɝː/ ^[10])

I think you misunderstand the purpose of this page. This is the one way that we are transcribing English words across Wikipedia. We have one way to prevent editing disputes (or to localize them here rather than spread apart to a half-dozen other articles). Thus, while those are indeed transcription variants in English, they're not changes that we should be making to the this guide... — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Re g → γ

I'm not complaining—I love this page and the people who build it. I'm just wondering if yall can school an ignorant peon on why Latin small g here became Greek small gamma? (I've a feeling that I've an "RTFM" coming … ) Cheers, — ¾-10 00:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Never mind … I just RTFH'd (H = history) and learned that it's been γ since the dawn of time. I was just looking without seeing. Ahhhh, grasshopper, you must learn to see. — ¾-10 00:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. There shouldn't be any [γ] in English. I did a search of the page, but it didn't come up. kwami (talk) 01:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

It's the usual bug discussed at WP:International Phonetic Alphabet#Voiced velar plosive: there's a commonly used font with a bug in it causing "ɡ" to render as "γ" or "ɣ". —Angr 05:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

This being the case, is there any real point in using the IPA "g" in place of an ordinary "g"? Does the ordinary g have some special distinct meaning in IPA? If not, and since the two are almost identical, wouldn't it be the lesser of two evils to simply use the ordinary letter g?--Kotniski (talk) 07:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Because it's ugly. And as an encyclopedia we should at least try to be authoritative. kwami (talk) 07:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Using the IPA template will force the open-tail g on many computers. I don't know what ideal the system configuration, browser, or unicode font is for displaying Wikipedia, though I doubt I've ever met anybody who has it all together. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't see that its being ugly (and probably so only to a few experts anyway) and slightly (and insignificantly) non-standard is enough to justify displaying completely the wrong symbol to many users. --Kotniski (talk) 07:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

IPA does not define the g symbol explicitly to be without tail. There is no distinctive use of the tail. Anyway, in my font settings I see all g's in WP without tail. So it would be better to use the normal latin "g", to avoid some readers to see invalid symbols, while not harming any other user's view. −Woodstone (talk) 09:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

There are other font problems, such as the tie bar. I don't think we should compromise Wikipedia because Microsoft doesn't know what they're doing, but should design the IPA templates so that problematic fonts are overridden. kwami (talk) 09:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I certainly have no objection to using the normal "g". Even though this renders as the looptail g for many people, while the official IPA character is the opentail g , the looptail g isn't wrong, and is far less confusing than γ/Y. —Angr 09:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I've just gone through several thousand IPA transclusions, with one of the corrections being loop-tail to open-tail gee. *sigh* kwami (talk) 09:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the tie-bar problem is different from this one in that the tie-bar just shows up off kilter (or as a box) while the open-tail g apparantly looks like a completely different character, which is misleading or at the very least confusing to some readers. We don't necessarily need to search and destroy all instances of open-tail g, but we might want to make sure that it can be clear from context which sound is intended if there happens to be an encoding problem on someone's computer. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

It will display the same way here, so they'll still be able to figure out it's the gee in go, but they'll be learning the IPA incorrectly. kwami (talk) 23:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

True, assuming they don't already know. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:11, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

On my mac ɡ looks like a closed g, smaller and anti-aliased with lots of space around it. It Looks real stupid. Perhaps we should have a solution that is more browser independent? The small latin g was fine before. We should change it back. --Knulclunk (talk) 22:46, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

If your browser has problems with g, it probably has problems with other IPA symbols as well--like maybe the length sign. But you're right, we should be as browser-independent as possible. I just don't think that compromising on transcriptions when your viewing problem will end with your next software update is a good idea. kwami (talk) 23:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, we should ABSOLUTELY compromise Wikipedia because Microsoft doesn't know what they are doing. Wikipedia should be as user friendly, platform independent, and accessible as possible. The response "well, you need to update your software and use WP's preferred font installation for our obscure pronunciation system to display properly" is ridiculous. Just the kind of thing that Microsoft would do. --Knulclunk (talk) 17:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Besides, I am on a Mac, using Firefox. It doesn't display the "Y" but a lower case closed tail "g". Since WP's IPA is FORCING this glyph on us, I can only assume that it is important. As I read higher up in this discussion, a normal lower case "g" is not incorrect. What you have done is specifically force an INCORRECT glyph on thousands of users.--Knulclunk (talk) 17:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we can blame Microsoft for this. I've never seen this problem myself and I've used over a dozen different computers with Microsoft Windows, including run-of-the-mill default installation. Perhaps we should make it our policy to not force the open-tail g character (as opposed to being neutral) but we need to make sure first that the computers with this problem do see a distinction between g and ɡ since the IPA template is likely to force an open-tail g anyway. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:15, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Knulclunk and Kwami both make very good arguments in their own way. Kwami's is kind of the type of mentality of "don't conflate content with presentation," for example, "build your xml properly and keep the xsl separate," which is very important, and Knulclunk's is kind of the "serve your customers what they need right now and do your deconflation later." Each is a valid perspective, so neither can be attacked as ridiculous. I would tend to lean toward the content-vs-presentation side, but I couldn't say that the other is bad. The content-vs-presentation side is what wins in the long term—it is the correct way to achieve total platform independence, in fact—but the short and medium terms could be different, knowing that there will be revision later. — ¾-10 19:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

As for blaming MS, isn't it a MS font (not platform) that's causing the problem, same as the tie bar? Can we tweak the IPA template to avoid that font? kwami (talk) 22:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I have no clue, but if we can that would seem to solve the problem, no? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 02:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Using Cambridge Pronouncing Dictionary

I'm working on pronunication of British place names, starting with cities, using Cambridge Pronouncing Dictionary (17th) as source. Some questions:

• Is the vowel in party (Derby, Carlisle) /ɑr/ or /ɑːr/ in this standardisation? I guess the former.
• How should I represent cases where /ə/ can be omitted such as primary /ˈpraɪməri/ (Canterbury)?
• This page distinguishes between /ɔr/ and /ɔər/ but my source doesn't. Any suggestions how I can get this info, or do I just guess based on spelling? (Newport, Portsmouth, York) Gailtb (talk) 09:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The vowel of "party", "start", "Derby", "Carlisle" is /ɑr/ in this system. I would put optional sounds in round brackets (parentheses) thus: /ˈpraɪm(ə)ri/. "Port" is /pɔərt/; "York" is /jɔrk/. /ɔər/ is usual when the spelling is ore or oar, and after labial consonants (p, b, f, v, m); however, /ɔər/ does not usually occur before non-coronal consonants, so fork is /fɔrk/ even though "f" precedes, because "k" isn't a coronal consonant. (The only exception I know of is pork, which is /pɔərk/ even though it precedes "k".) When in doubt, just use /ɔr/, since most accents of English have lost the distinction anyway. —Angr 10:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I think it would be useful to describe the parentheses notation on the page.

I have a further question about the primary & Canterbury example. The full entry is: UK: /ˈpraɪm(ə)ri/, US: /ˈpraɪmɛri/, /ˈpraɪmɚri/ (using our symbols). Can /ɚ/ ever be omitted by those who use this? In other words, when trying to convert this to our system, how many alternatives are there?

• 2 alternatives? - /ˈpraɪm(ɚ)ri/ or /ˈpraɪmɛri/
• Or 3 alternatives? - /ˈpraɪm(ə)ri/, /ˈpraɪmɛri/ or /ˈpraɪmɚri/

Hope my question makes sense. Gailtb (talk) 13:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd never write /ɚ/ before /r/ anyway, so I'd say /ˈpraɪm(ə)ri/ or /ˈpraɪmɛri/. —Angr 14:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

ʊr

(copied from above): And I thought about putting a row in for courier. jnestorius^(talk) 00:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

This is beyond my dialect. Is there a reliable distinction between CʊrV and CʊərV? In the OED, I'm getting 1250 hits for CʊərV, but only 160 hits for CʊrV. (Also 600 hits for Cʊər# vs. only a couple (such as forfeiture, atour) for Cʊr#, but I'm assuming that's not a reliable distinction for most people.) But courier does get two entries, /ˈkʊəriər/ vs /ˈkʊriər/. Should we have allow /ʊr/ as a possible sequence? How can someone who does not control the distinction anticipate which word has which? kwami (talk) 02:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The problem is the "r-coloured" column in the table conflates Vr# and VrV. Pretty much any vowel can occur in VrV; the gap at ʊrV is lexical, not phonotactic. JC Wells mentions courier specifically. The ʊər#—ʊr# distinction is the r-coloured variant of uː—u, which isn't in the table, even though iː—i—ɪ is. jnestorius^(talk) 13:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

What about uː—u—ʊ, then? Do we have such a distinction anywhere? kwami (talk) 22:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

LPD's key uses u for influence, situation, annual, bivouac, and i for happy, radiation, glorious. I don't know if happy tensing covers all the latter group. But LPD has no ʊər—ʊr distinction: forfeiture is given with [-ɪtʃ ə] in RP and [-ətʃ ^ər] (variants [-ə tʃʊr], [-ə tjʊr]) in GenAm. jnestorius^(talk) 02:21, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay, maybe leave it out then.

(Since there is no phonemic difference between the vowels in VrC/Vr# and VrV, we write them all as if they were rhotic. Not something I'm happy with, but people object to transcribing English in a phonemic IPA orthography.) kwami (talk) 02:46, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

/i/ /iː/ allophones?

Hi, not a linguist but an enthusiast, so please understand that I'm not 'telling it how it is', but hoping for better understanding. The IPA for English table lists /iː/ in 'feet' and 'bead', and /i/ in 'happy'. Now, clearly the vowel length in 'bead' and 'happy' is different; however, there appears to be allophonic shortening/lengthening between 'feet' and 'bead' (RPish speaker here). Now, we may ignore that, and, as the OED does, transcribe 'feet' and 'bead' both with a long vowel, acknowledging that this will have a different realization in different dialects. This leaves us using /i/ only at the end of words, and /iː/ only within syllables. Are they then phonologically distinct in English? Is there any minimal pair to separate /i/ and /iː/? And if not, ought we, in this phonemic, rather than phonetic chart, distinguish them at all? Is there not a case for simply everywhere using /i/?

Indeed, is vowel length anywhere distinctive in English, and if not, should /ː/ be retired altogether from this chart? --Che Gannarelli (talk) 11:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe that /i/ and /iː/ are the same phoneme. I also know the sentiment against using the length-mark in phonemic transcriptions, but personally I think it's more helpful (and certainly not wrong) to use it, provided we use it consistently (so <seedy> should be /'siːdiː/, for example).

And indeed that's the problem, is it not? There's an audible difference in length between the two vowels in that word, even though they're not phonemically distinct. Ought we distinguish nonetheless, if it's less jarring than seeing those two vowels given the same length? But if we do that, can we reasonably elect at the same to to represent feet as /fiːt/, rather than /fit/?

Good stuff, this phonology. I'm surely in the wrong subject!--Che Gannarelli (talk) 11:40, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, if we do want to distinguish between sounds that represent the same phoneme, then we would have to change policy and start giving phonetic, rather than phonemic transcriptions: ['siːdi] would be OK. However, since this is English WP and we assume that our readers speak English, I think that the current policy makes sense. Readers will make the subphonemic distinctions intuitively for themselves.--Kotniski (talk) 11:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

None of which I've any wish to dispute. However, we're then left with the fact that the table presently lists /i/ and /iː/ separately. As for the others /uː/ and /ɔː/ only feature as long. If I'm not mistaken, /u/ varies in length as a function of voicing, and /ɔ/ does not. Of course, all of this is subphonemic. I'm simply unsure of the merits of distinguishing /i/ and /iː/ at all.--Che Gannarelli (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2009 (UTC)