Talk:Tengrism

Veracity of the Tengrism symbol shown on the page?

This symbol appears to come from a defunct Russian/Yakut-language website called Tengry.org. Looking at archives of the site, I cannot really find the image, but the site seems dedicated to shamanism and neo-paganism, and does things like make predictions about the future, talk about UFOs, hyperborea, etc.

The symbol itself appears to be something called a Shanyrak, Tunduk, Toono etc., which is something used in the construction of the yurt, at the top. The shanyrak as it's called in Russian, can be found on things like the flag of Kyrgyzstan or the Kazakh coat of arms, but seems to have no relation to Tengrism in particular. The inclusion of Old Turkic script seems most likely to be an addition from Tengry.org. The explanation of the symbol's meaning on the file on wikimedia as a shaman's drum or even the structure of the universe seems to have no evidence for it.

Given that there is no evidence for the origin of this symbol apart from a disreputable and now defunct page, that there is no evidence of its use historically nor by any major organized group today, and that the symbol's composition and relation to Tengrism is extremely questionable, I propose this symbol be removed. This symbol appears on the Tengrism portal across Wikipedia and even appears on google, with no evidence for it having anything to do with Tengrism. Flammabl3 (talk) 19:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Tengri exceptionalism

I believe my edit from last year was reverted and my Talk page topic got deleted before it could attract a proper disussion. I will make the edit again, and provide a more detailed justification thereof. I therefore ask my fellow Wikipedia editors not to revert the edit or delete this topic before it can attract a proper discussion (Or, at least, put an "undue weight" tag at the beginning of the article).

As it stands now, the introduction paragraph states "[Tengri] is not considered a deity in the usual sense but a personification of the universe.". This sentence attempts to describe a core belief/dogma/paradigm of this religion. This statement is also given additional gravity by having been included in the introduction paragraph. Therefore, lying in the heart of the article, it is very important that this claim is backed up by proper sources, see WP:UNDUE

The reference provided ("Archetypes of Kazakh and Japanese cultures.") is not an academic source attempting to describe the core aspects of this religion but it is simply one comparing Tengrism to Japanese archetypes. The author makes this claim in a side remark (I can't stress this enough!). There is just one source listed for this claim, and my brief search online failed to provide any other proper sources backing this claim up. This is a clear indication that the Undue Weight principle of NPOV is broken. Again, see WP:UNDUE

Finally, such statements of "Tengri exceptionalism" have very specific political implications in Turkey, therefore I find it very difficult to believe that this sentence was added in good faith. Boundary.operator (talk) 21:34, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Tengrism is not a religion and has no dogma. It is a term to summarize all sorts of beliefs revolving around Tengri and are not classified by any other religion such as Islam or Buddhism. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:01, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

The article quite literally opens with

"Tengrism (also known as Tengriism, Tengerism, or Tengrianism) is a religion [...]"

If you have any problem with the classification of Tengrism as a religion, you're free to make the necessary edits after providing sufficient evidence that most scholars of Tengri do not classify it as such. I think that is not the case (that is, most scholars DO actually view it as a religion) but either way, it's irrelevant to the point I was making. Boundary.operator (talk) 17:18, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Citation needed

"Tengriism was the prevailing religion of the [...] Xiongnu". Citation needed. Tekin, Talât (1993) has 0 iterations of the string "Xiongnu". The source given for the "Religions" data block in Xiongnu's page is not supportive of that. And Yeniseians are shamanists. What is the evidence that they were Tengriists at any point? No, the word 'tengri' possibly coming from Proto-Yeniseian is not evidence. 2A02:1811:C0D:6F00:65A2:8865:E250:2FB1 (talk) 11:20, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

1 million Kazakh tengriists is unsubstantiated

Citation 136 provides no evidence for 1 million Kazakh tengriists, and that figure is probably false. The entire paragraph should be removed, arguably the entire Demographics section as there's very little left afterwards. 217.155.101.147 (talk) 20:11, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

This whole article is garbage. 2A02:1811:C0D:6F00:996F:E714:E3EC:D0BE (talk) 10:47, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

The cited news article literally says There are now more than a million citizens of the country who recognise themselves in this shamanic confession of Turkish-Mongolian origin... and They now number over a million people, so much so that its followers have opened a petition on the epetition.kz website requesting legal recognition of their cult as one of the country's official religions. Liu1126 (talk) 22:29, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

It absolutely does - and it provides no source for it. A random claim is not substantiated simply because it appears on a random website. OperationalRisk (talk) 11:45, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

AsiaNews is a news agency managed by the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions supported by the Catholic Church and is widely cited on Wikipedia. There hasn't been any significant discussion regarding it at WP:RSP. Do you have evidence that it is an unreliable source? Liu1126 (talk) 12:07, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: There is ongoing discussion regarding this request. As edit requests are for immediately actionable and uncontroversial edits I am closing out the template to remove it from the queue. This is a procedural action, is not a "rejection" of any kind, and it does not impact further discussion. —Sirdog (talk) 00:24, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

The state religion of Khazaria was Judaism

Although probably the commoner Turkic populace of Khazaria remained traditional tengriists, the state religion (religion of the elite) was Judaism. 2A02:A460:BD7:1:2957:E512:1C0A:745E (talk) 07:03, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't see that the two references in this article to Tengrism in Khazaria contradict that. I don't think there is a serious challenge to the proposition that the population as a whole likely remained Tengrist. Secondly, "state religion" is an anachronism. At most it might be the case that the "elite" converted to Judaism. Thirdly, even that is not universally accepted by the sources. DeCausa (talk) 17:14, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Proof? VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:48, 8 June 2025 (UTC)