Talk:Atari 8-bit computers/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Shielding vs. Slots

the article currently states: "Due to the FCC restrictions, the 400/800 couldn't allow slots like those found on the Apple II computers."

Why? Did Apple 'get away with' something? If an explanation is not appropriate for this article, it should at least link to one in the Apple ][ article. --68.13.81.239 (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone(s) edited out the info in the article. Atari included a RF modulator which generated TV signals which forced them to shield the machines, preventing slots. Apple did NOT include an RF modulator, so it didn't have to comply with the FCC regs on shielding for a RF device. --Pelladon (talk) 03:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The statement is completely wrong. (I'll attend to the text ASAP.) The 800 had a ROM slot, three RAM slots (one of which was sometimes used for a third-party 80-column display card, etc.), and a concealed "slot" for the CPU, ANTIC and CTIA/GTIA ICs. -Johnlogic (talk) 01:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me clarify, expansion slots like those found on Apple II's. Those slots for the 800 were for internal use, like ROM and RAM cards. A few third party products added features like 80 column and extra RAM. Those slots weren't designed for outside connections (like the PC or Apple slots were).Pelladon (talk) 02:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW: massive "cast iron" shielding? I don't think so. --Pelladon (talk) 03:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

More specifically, the problem wasn't so much the slots themselves, but how to have those slots talk to external hardware. One of the most common uses of slots in the Apple was to support Centronix and RS-232 ports, which routed cables out the back through holes in the case. Similar holes on the atari would have ruined the faraday cage effect. So you could have a card, but nothing could connect to it, which pretty much made them useless. Not entirely so, as the Austin Franklin 80 Column RGBI Video Board demonstrated, but still a major PITA. Thanks FCC. Maury (talk) 20:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Second time this has been taken out

Hi all

I edited the section some time ago to include this, albeit in different wording, and yet again it has been simply removed. The reason for removal was the same on both occasions - 1st time "it's not 1200XL-specific, the whole family is HD-connectable." and 2nd time "the same can be said for any 8-bit, not just the 1200XL", yet it is not mentioned anywhere in the article, and there is no article for the XL series on its own

The XL series was capable of being connected to external devices such as drives, and one major advantage the XL had over its rivals was the ability to store games and data onto hard drive

Can someone decide where to put it and have the courtesy to chat about it, reword it, or put it in the right place rather than just taking it out. It is an important factor in the XL's advantage over the rest of the competition.

Third time lucky !!

Thanks--Chaosdruid (talk) 03:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

That statement is not true. Most Atari's competitors at the time were HD-connectable, so there's no reason it should be in the article. Even it it were true, you have not provided a source to back it up.--Krótki (talk) 19:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

As far as I am aware the Commodore series did not get Hard disks until 1983/84, and the XL series had them in 1982. Seagat made disks earlier, in 1980 but they were not compatible. The Apple series had hard drives available in 1981 for the II but they were not really competition for the atari, as they were not really used for gaming. Anyway it seems you are not really interested in researching these facts--Chaosdruid (talk) 22:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Seperate Article for Atari XE Games System?!

I am of the opinion that there should be a seperate Article for the Atari XE Games System, as it is a games console in it's own right aswell as a member of the Atari 8 bit family. Anyone agree with me? mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 15:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Any joy on wether or not there should be seperate article for the Atari XE Games system? If anyone has any, give us a bell asap. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 19:15, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Although the Tramiel era Atari attempted to market it as a "game system", the fact was that it really wasn't. It was an Atari personal computer through and through. True game systems are developed first and foremost to run one type of software in mind: games. They are not officially supported with software for usage that one would typically find in the personal computer market (word processing, etc.). Because the XEGS was an XE family computer, with support for all XE peripherals AND (and this is most important) Atari XE family software, not just games, but everything from word processing onwards, it cannot justifiably be labeled a "game system". Technically, it isn't.

Now, I know what you're thinking: Atari 5200 was based on the 400/800 series design, and, hell, the original XBox was termed a "PC in a box" by detractors. But look closer. 5200 was based on the 400/800 series design, yes, but there were slight differences between the two that you can find in the Atari 5200 Wiki article (among them different registers, at different locations, and a much smaller and simpler BIOS). This made it so that software was NOT compatible between the 400/800 series and Atari 5200, which meant that 5200 couldn't run the software typically used with personal computers at the time - it was optimized for game applications. Add to that the fact that it wasn't compatible with 400/800 hardware peripherals (keyboard, add ons, etc.). Moving onto XBox, we know that it ran on an Intel processor with an NVidia GPU, and heck, even ran on a Windows kernel...but while it could be modified to be a PC...it wasn't officially a PC. The CPU was unique to XBox, as was the GPU, and while it ran on a Windows kernel, it was a modified stripped down version. XBox was optimized to run game applications. It also wasn't cross compatible with Windows PC peripherals on the hardware end.

XEGS, however, was compatible with XE personal computer software AND hardware. You could literally plug in the same tape drive that you used on XE computers to the XEGS. You could literally run the SAME software that would typically be reserved for the Atari personal computer market. It simply wasn't a "game system" any more than those Alienware built PCs are "game systems", tbqh, Atari attempt at spin aside. This is one of the reasons the game console industry pretty much ignored it. Therealspiffyone (talk) 18:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The industry ingored it but it was still a games system. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 19:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Atari 800&400 market leaders in 1980-82

Can't find anything in the source stating this, also consider that according to many sources VIC-20 was the best selling computer in 1982, thus the market leader. --Waskoma (talk) 09:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Atari 8 bit line has got not the "most powerful graphics of any 8 bit computers of their time"

The statement in question is violating the neutral point of view policy. "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves.", By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." This is not a fact but a blurry weasely opinion presented as a fact. "most powerful" in what way? what does their time mean? the source doesnt says "in their time" that to begin with, nor supports the opinion "most powerful" with anyting. Its just a feature listing of graphics chips, sauced with some biased opinions.

Furthermore the source is unreliable, for example it states Atari 8 bit computers were the market leader in the United states, which is not true. Vic-20s up to 82 and from 82 c64s sold in bigger quantities than Ataris. Also it fails to even mention the color/attribute graphics memory of the c64. Doing this in an article focusing on features of graphics chips in 8 bit computers is an unforgivable mistake.

Certainly it is not valid to cite the same source here on the Wiki page of Andrew BrayBrook to claim he is the most famous C64 programmer. This is just another opinion just like in case of the disputed graphics statement: A special mention must go to Andrew Braybrook who possibly is still the most famous of Commodore 64 programmers. Many people will disagree with this just like in case of graphics, which is NOT a fact, but an opinion.

[1]

--Waskoma (talk) 12:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I kind of agree with Waskoma here. If we present someone's opinion, we have to mention it as such. Statements like "most powerful" and "most famous" are hard to qualify, and one source isn't enough for such statements. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 13:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

First - That's a complete misappropriation of "weasel words", which is a policy to refer to not using statements like "some people say", "most people say", "many people say", etc. Second, calling an ACM Siggraph article an unreliable source is silly by any standards. Waskoma's analysis represents WP:OR and WP:Synthesis at best, which is not how Wikipedia functions. On neutrality I can agree with you Frecklefoot, but that can easily be remedied by stating "According to an analysis by...." at the beginning and moving the statement in to the GTIA section. A Computer Science PHD that specializes and lectures in graphics, presenting an article on an analysis of graphics, in an esteemed publication like the ACM's, meets any notability and reliability constraints. Now if we're in agreement on the rewording and move Frecklefoot, I'll go ahead and do it. I've also asked guyinblack25 to join us and weigh in, because of his experience in moving articles to FA status. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 14:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

After looking over the source I'm inclined to believe that it meets WP:RS. The newsletter is the official publication of the ACM SIGGRAPH,[2] which I believe was instrumental in providing the technology used by the game industry during the switch to 3D graphics. The author, Steven Collins, is part of the Department of Computer Science in Trinity College Dublin and is co-founder of the Havok company that created the havok engine. As far as sources go, that's an impressive resume for computer science let alone for video game graphics.

On the matter of the wording, if SIGGRAPH let Collins publish "the Atari had the most powerful graphics system", I'm very inclined to believe that statement as is. However, I agree that giving the statement proper context is the more prudent route to go. Attributing the phrase "most powerful graphics" to Steven Collins of ACM SIGGRAPH would solidify the statements neutrality. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 19:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC))

Sounds good, so between the three of us we have consensus for rewording to give attribution to Steven Collins for neutrality. I'll add the "According to an analysis by Steven Collins.." to it and move it the GTIA section, as I don't think it belongs in the intro anymore in that format. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 00:19, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Full ack from me guys. Regarding reliability I dont know what's the case on WP with sources which are full of factual errors. Has about a dozens of those, I have already mentioned it says Atari was the market leader in the USA. On the contrary: C= Pet/Apple then VIC 20(first computer to ever sell 1 million units on the market with the atari 8 bit at the same time) then C64 (most sold single computer model ever) were the leaders. More: Says Atari had 256 color mode (max was 16), claims commodore 64 had 1 bit for sprite sprite collisions (had 1 bit for each sprite), claims that in all multicolor modes the c64 had 3 fixed colors. (in bitmap mode 1 color was fixed and 3 was selectable for each character position), or "Now in the late nineties, all previous machines have been surpassed by the PC" PC's surpassed Amiga's and ST's in the early nineties most notably with DOOM. Do your WP:OR research :) --Waskoma (talk) 08:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, this is the problem of you going by WP:OR and trying to push it as fact here - perfect example you are incorrect regarding the colors and the author is correct - via software the GTIA is capable of pushing 256 colors and a simple google search brings up plenty of resources discussing and showing this. Likewise the author is correct on "through the late 90's" - Amiga's and ST's were still very popular in video production and music respectively. Likewise you are incorrect, he does not state it was the market leader in the US, he includes "US" to show where the Atari 8-bit's strength in the market was limited to. Throughout the article he clearly states the Commodore 64 was the most popular 8-bit line. Furthermore, you're incorrect about what he's stating on sprite collision and did not state anything like "1-bit for all sprites", rather 1 bit for each collision. This demonstrated continual inability to read proper context in to the writing almost makes me wonder if English is a second language to you and that's the actual source of this controversy. Rergardless, this matter has been settled via consensus and the author has been attributed to the statement to denote it being his personal insight and satisfy neutrality concerns. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 16:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

That's twisting around sentences & a personal attack. Anyway case is solved for me. Thank you and bye.--Waskoma (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You were the one twisting around sentences and the resource material as demonstrated, and there was no "personal attack". It was a legitimate question based on your continued repetition of said interpretations after consensus had been formed already, and your location in Hungary. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:27, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Removed "according to an analysis". The source does only list three 8 bit computer's graphic features, but does not even compare those to support the statement. Thus Collins' statement is an opinion.

Are you kidding? The systems are compared in a table located after the first three paragraphs. His "opinion" is supported by facts, such as the numbers presented within that table. What you call an "opinion" is in fact a summary of the data within the table. It's as if he listed the countries in Western Europe and their population, concluded that Germany is the most populous, and devoted a couple of paragraphs to Russia (not in Western Europe) and France (second most populous) - and you're getting pissy and calling it an "opinion" because he didn't devote a paragraph to carefully explaining why Monaco and Luxembourg aren't the most populous. Badger Drink (talk) 07:47, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

If Collins would have thought as you suggest, then according to the table he would have said that the Jupiter Ace has the most powerful graphics. The table does not list all 8 bit computers/consoles so drawing a conclusion from it would be wrong. Also it contains wrong resolution data for the Lynx and the Jupiter Ace, and with the inclusion of the Atari Lynx it's clear that the comparison does not exclude consoles. Anyone thinks (except Collins..) that the atari is more powerful than the NES or the PC Engine? The only statement supporting the opinion in question is this: is not surprising given the machine's lineage. Collins does not say "in their time" , so that should go aswell as the "according to an analysis" as there was no analysis. --Waskoma (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

(de-indent) Collins isn't talking about the Atari 2600. The Atari 8 bit computers were, in fact, more powerful than the NES. The PC-Engine was comparably powerful, but not really a fair comparison - Collins is dealing with home computers of the early 80s, the PC-Engine was 1) a videogame console, 2) released in the late 80s, and 3) not really stictly 8 bit - 8+8 bit would be more accurate. Collins makes quite clear that he is only considering computers released during the "golden era" of computing, which, quote, "began around 1982 and continued until about 1990." He then goes on to say, quote, "The Atari (see the Planet Atari Web site [4] for more information) had the most powerful graphics system". Your assertion that the table supports the Jupiter Ace as having the most powerful graphics system is, quite bluntly, absolutely absurd - notice its meager amount of RAM. If you can show an example of what you'd consider an "actual analysis", feel free to share it, as I (and others) are seemingly under the collective delusion that the website linked is, in fact, an analysis, albeit not as exhaustive an analysis as it seems some would like. Badger Drink (talk) 03:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Badger Drink, and current consensus is for the already agreed upon wording. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 14:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

PC Engine was released in 87, NES in 85 - both fitting into the timeframe - but Collins does not consider either, while including the Atari Lynx (also a console with 8 bit cpu & 16 bit gfx like the PC Engine, thus based on the PC engine can not be excluded) into his "analysis". Thats just 2 systems of many he does not investigate. Thus his statement that Atari is the most powerful amongst 8 bit machines is not based on a fair analysis and is an opinion. Therefore the wording "according to an analysis" is misleading or in harsh: not true. My assertion that the table supports the Jupiter Ace as having the best gfx system is a parody of your absurd logics: What you call an "opinion" is in fact a summary of the data within the table. The table contains only numbers regarding resolution, summarizing that leads to the conlcusion that the Jupiter is the best. Do your WP:OR: the Atari Lynx, NES, PC Engine overall - and in many areas even the c64&CPC&Spectrum - does better graphically than the Atari 8 bit line. This should fall into the common knowledge category to anyone who ever saw the specs/games of the Atari 8 bit and those systems. What you are doing is abusing the WP rules by trying to push Collins' opinion as a fact based on an analysis, furthermore you give words into Collin's mouth "of any 8 bit computer of their time". Collins did not analyse all 8 bit computers in his article nor said that, thus the sentence can only be applied to the computers he has "investigated" not to "any". --Waskoma (talk) 17:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Waskoma, please do not lecture or make accusations on policy when you have so far demonstrated very little actual understanding of it by your previous statements regarding weasel, etc., or willingness to abide by said policies. While you may not agree with the agreed upon consensus, you certainly have the opportunity to try and discuss and change it here. What you do not have the right to do is start reverting against established consensus as you have been starting again, trying to force your views and edits. Such disruptive editing practices can result in the blocking of your ip per the regulations on blocking and length. Feel free to continue discussing the issue here, but do not keep reverting against consensus. If you manage to change consensus, then the wording will be promptly changed at the conclusion of the consensus change process. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 19:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Waskoma, once again it seems your mediocre English comprehension is inhibiting communication. The table does not merely contain resolution data - it also summarizes the amount of RAM and ROM. That is why it does not, in fact, support the Jupiter Ace as the most graphically powerful computer - I'll repeat my last message word for word: notice its meager amount of RAM. The PC-Engine, Lynx, NES, et al were videogame consoles, not home computers. Your highlighting the fact that the Lynx contains a similar graphics setup to the PC-Engine only furthers our point, and completely undermines your own: Not only are they videogame consoles, not computers, but the question of whether or not they're even to be considered fully 8 bit is completely up for grabs. Please don't rush to respond to people on this talk page - take the time to carefully read what they're saying, and make sure you understand what they're saying before you respond. It will save us all a lot of time and aggravation. Nobody likes repeating themselves. Badger Drink (talk) 06:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Marty, you did not consider my points: There wasnt an analysis taking place. An analysis would mean comparing directly graphics features and saying X is better because Y. But what basically happens is this: Collins lists the features of some computers and the analysis is left to the reader. Thus the usage of the word analysis is misleading: The reader would think that in the source Collins have looked at ALL 8 bit homecomputers and compared their graphic capabilities one by one. What the article is really about: a relatively short summary of the graphics capabilities of some of the 8 bit computers. Furthermore Collins does not say that "the atari 8 bit line has the most powerful graphics on any home computer of their time". This statement is not only not backed up by the source, its not even in the source. So for sake of correctness it should be not left here in this form.

Badger, in this case the table still does not bring forth the Atari as the best. For exampe it lists the Commodore 64 with more ROM&RAM&Resolution&Higher revision CPU. So your logic that Collins based his statement on the table simply does not work. Also you should be the one reading more carefully: Collins himself included Atari Lynx in his article, so your speculations that he is excluding consoles and/or consoles having 16 bit graphics are proven both to be wrong.

By the way this [3]source claims Atari 400&800 has a blitter. Should it be included here, just like Peter Collin's saying that Atari has more powerful graphics than the Atari Lynx... according to WP guidelines both can get in.--Waskoma (talk) 09:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Briefly: 1) The analysis is right there on the page. He doesn't go into tedious minutae because, one would assume, he never figured some pedant would throw a shitfit on Wikipedia over the omission of proof that the sky is blue. 2) You're absolutely wrong. Incorrigibly wrong. Ridiculously, tremendously, outstandingly wrong. First line of the Atari paragraph: "The Atari (see the Planet Atari Web site [4] for more information) had the most powerful graphics system. He does not say "of its time" because it's quite clearly (well, to a native English speaker, at least) implied that he is considering only the computers of its time - he mentions this in the introduction, and said fact carries on, even though - get this! - he doesn't have to restate this fact twenty times per paragraph. It's understood in a manner similar to pronouns. 3) He likely did compare them one by one, which is why he can come to the conclusion that (just to quote once more - granted, you seem to have been oblivious to this the last four or five times it was quoted, but maybe the sixth time's the charm!) "The Atari (see the Planet Atari Web site [4] for more information) had the most powerful graphics system". Again, this can be implied, inferred, and understood by all but the most pedantic of readers. 4) The difference between the C-64 and the Jupiter Ace is that the C-64 has a paragraph of its own, explaining why its graphics are not quite as powerful as the Atari. The Jupiter Ace doesn't need a paragraph of its own, because the default conclusion is that bigger numbers = better than, and Collins only elaborates for the exceptions to that "rule". 5) There's no mention of the Atari Lynx anywhere in the article. The "Lynx" mentioned in the table is the Camputers Lynx, a semi-obscure 8-bit home computer released in Great Britain. Check your premises before claiming proof of anything. 6) Whether the ANTIC / CTIA/GTIA could be considered a blitter of sorts is best answered by someone other than myself. Badger Drink (talk) 10:41, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

1) an incomplete listing of gfx capabilities is not an analysis. 2) if you agree with me that he does NOT say "in their time" also the sentence implies it, then why do you insist it must stay? 3) you're making this up without evidence, what is there shows he did not investigate all 8 bit computers. 4) again you are making up things, there's not even the slightest hint or implication that he based his statement on the table. same goes for your newly invented "exception rule". 5) you are right here, now the resolution data matches. Now on to my favourite part, you say: "the C-64 has a paragraph of its own, explaining why its graphics are not quite as powerful as the Atari." Can you quote some sentences from the c64 paragraph which are explaining why its graphics are less powerful as the Atari ? Proove there's an analysis regarding the two's graphics capabilities. Here's one for a start: "Unlike the Atari, the 64's sprites were free to move both horizontally and vertically. " Thats something for the c64's advantage, and I'm afraid there's no more. There's not even a comparison of bitmap or character modes. --84.0.151.27 (talk) 20:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)