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Another generic author name

I've just cleaned up a few articles where the author field ended with "(View posts)" (sample diff) -- John of Reading (talk) 09:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Translated Quote Parameter

Since there is a parameter for "translated title", and there is a parameter for "quote", I suggest a parameter for "translated quote". Currently I tend to write a translation of the quote in brackets after the quote, but this is probably not optimal, since the source itself is not the source of the translation (just as we usually cannot attribute a "translated title" to the source). Thiagovscoelho (talk) 12:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

If the quotation is important to the article, put it in the article body and cite it. Quotations require citations; citations do not require quotations. But, if you must: |trans-quote=.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:49, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't know we actually had this. I guess it was because it's not available from the visual editor 😅. Sometimes I used |quote= to give a fuller version of a quotation from the article itself, and sometimes it was to make clear how a source supported a claim, since it was a large webpage source and I can't give page numbers. Thiagovscoelho (talk) 13:30, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Istro-Romanian-language sources

Hello. I frankly have no idea if this is the appropriate venue for this.

Istro-Romanian is one of the Balkan Romance languages. The others are Romanian, Aromanian and Megleno-Romanian. Adding a parameter |language=ro/rup/ruq in a citation template will produce (in Romanian/Aromanian/Megleno-Romanian), but |language=ruo does not produce (in Istro-Romanian). An example is reference 50 at Istro-Romanians. I fixed it manually with |version= but I don't see why Istro-Romanian should be excluded from Wikipedia's technical code, or whatever the root of this is. Note that there is already Template:Lang-ruo so it's not a problem of "ruo" or of the language not being integrated anywhere within Wikipedia's code.

Can this be fixed? Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Staff

Can "staff" be added to generic author names? There are 63 articles citing "Staff, Ars". 93.72.49.123 (talk) 06:39, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

in "cite magazine", how do I cite an issue name such as "Spring 2022"?

If I put this in the 'issue' field, it renders as "No. Spring 2022" which doesn't really seem correct. But it doesn't really seem like it should be in the date field like that either. –jacobolus (t) 15:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Since you didn't say what magazine you are thinking of, I will suppose this is a typical magazine. Typically, "Spring 2022" would be the date of the issue and would be specified in the date parameter. The publisher may or may not specify an issue number, which for a quarterly magazine would probably be a number from 1 through 4. That may be specified with the issue parameter. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:00, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I see from your edit history that the magazine in question seems to be Caltech Magazine. When accessing the issue online, there is an option to see the print version. In the online reproduction of the print version, on page 2, where the "masthead" is, it states "Spring 2023 Volume LXXXVI, Number 1". I would regard this as the official date, and the date at the top of the article as a garbage date. I would write a complaint letter to the magazine about providing a date other than the official date without explaining what it means. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Great, thanks! –jacobolus (t) 16:09, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Unix epoch

I'm wondering whether it would make sense to show an error when a date of 1 January 1970 (the Unix epoch) is supplied. Of course there would be false positives, but from a quick search most articles appear to be using this date in error. 93.72.49.123 (talk) 06:46, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better to run the search for that date and recruit help to go check them all. –jacobolus (t) 15:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Simple search results:

• 1 January 1970 – ~745
• January 1, 1970 – ~500
• 1970-01-01 – ~905

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Is there a project for correcting issues? It would seem like a good place to organise something like this. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Judging from a spot check, Category:CS1 maint: date eauals unix epoch may be indicated. I'll hit up mw:Citoid and see if they'd be willing to throw out this date for web sources. Folly Mox (talk) 20:35, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Warning when adding duplicate arguments?

I fix a lot of script-generated citations, and about once every twenty or thirty, I'll end up duplicating a parameter that was actually already included but I didn't notice, causing the page to be added to Category:Articles using duplicate arguments in template calls and creating additional work as other editors User:Davemck and User:Ira Leviton clean up after me.

Is there a way for this to generate a warning message / for me to enable display of a warning message that is already generated? I am sometimes able to notice the category being added to the page on preview, but this typically only displays if I'm editing the full page rather than just a section, which accounts for maybe 5% of my edits. Folly Mox (talk) 13:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

No. MediaWiki can and does detect duplicate parameters but Module:Citation/CS1 gets only one of them (the last):

{{cite book |title=Title1 |title=Title2}}

Title2.

I use the generic text editor. When I preview this section, I see a warning message that looks something like this:

Warning: Help talk:Citation Style 1 (edit) is calling Template:Cite book with more than one value for the "title" parameter. Only the last value provided will be used. (Help)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I do remember seeing warnings of that genre, but only in desktop mode. They must be restricted to that interface. Folly Mox (talk) 13:54, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Resolved

Access-date gives an error for the 90's

Is this the expected behavior? Rjjiii (talk) 00:43, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Where do you see this failure? Show an example.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I get {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |access-date= (help) for dates until the year 2001 in these examples:

• "ZDNet". Retrieved 4 July 1998. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |access-date= (help)
• "ZDNet". Retrieved 4 July 1999. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |access-date= (help)
• "ZDNet". Retrieved 4 July 2000. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |access-date= (help)
• "ZDNet". Retrieved 4 July 2001.
• "ZDNet". Retrieved 4 July 2002.
• "ZDNet". Retrieved 4 July 2003.
• "ZDNet". Retrieved 4 July 2004.

I wasn't sure if the template just assumes an early access to be an error, Rjjiii (talk) 01:01, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

The first edit in Wikipedia's database was made on January 15, 2001. So, it is literally impossible for an access-date to be before that date. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 02:06, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh, that makes sense. My thought was that material printed from the web had a date on the printout, but that's overly complicated. Thanks for the explanation, Rjjiii (talk) 02:42, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to take the '[solved]' out of the title of this thread, because you would not believe how difficult it makes wikilinking to this discussion. The parser apparently just cannot handle it. FeRDNYC (talk) 12:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Page numbers when citing journals

After adding references to Grand Sanhedrin, I noticed that Template:Cite journal creates somewhat obscure and (in my opinino) inaccessible output:

> Niles, H. (12 June 1830). "The Jews". Niles' Weekly Register. 38: 296.

The number 38 represents the "Volume" and "296" presentes the page number. In other citation templates, we state the page number after "pp.", such as when using Template:Cite book. I think applying this to journal citations would make it significantly easier for readers to find the facts in the source, and thus to help them read the surrounding information. This especially because the URLs tend to go to a place for the work as a whole, which places a heavy burden on understanding that 1) the page number is in fact given, and 2) which number is what.

Perhaps less importantly than the page numer is the volume. This because each volume tends to be its own work and thus its own ISBN and/or online entry page. This means the volume number isn't required for navigation within the work. Having said that, I wouldn't mind spelling that out as "Volume 38".

Would these changes be welcomed? What other ways might there be to address the usability issue? Or perhaps there exists documentation we expect people to find that explains this?

Krinkle (talk) 23:37, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I think {{cite news}} or {{cite magazine}} is what you want for Niles' Weekly Register:

Niles, H. (12 June 1830). "The Jews". Niles' Weekly Register. Vol. 38. p. 296.

Niles, H. (12 June 1830). "The Jews". Niles' Weekly Register. Vol. 38. p. 296.

{{Cite journal}} is for academic journals. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:49, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree that the output of {{cite journal}} is obscure and for clarity needs to be changed, especially where there are a mixture of formats on a page. We should not expect readers to know a convention or have to guess what things mean. Keith D (talk) 11:47, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

It's only obscure if you've never encountered the notation before. It's an extremely common citation style. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I find the output intuitive enough, as well as pretty standard (APA, I think?). The bolded volume is clear and reduces clutter, plus basically every journal citation will link directly to the article in question. I wouldn't mind "p" or "pp" for the page numbers, but the template output should be legible to anyone who's ever read a footnote in a published academic work. Folly Mox (talk) 13:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

But the average reader in Wikipedia will not necessarily be too experienced in conventions in academia I believe. I think this is a great idea. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 20:24, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, "this is how academic journals cite other academic journals" (or how they're cited in other works focused on academia, like research papers and science periodicals) shouldn't really matter all that much to Wikipedia, should it? It's odd that we'd cite (only) one particular class of references in "their native tongue", rather than citing them in ways that are more accessible to the target audience here. Which doesn't suddenly become academia simply because a journal was cited. FeRDNYC (talk) 11:29, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

It's how virtually all scholarship is cited in virtually all publications venues. Magazines, books, journals. This is what APA style and virtually all others mandate (some italicize the volume, most keep it plain). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:30, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I've been in favor of using the same style for journals as we do for magazines for quite some time. There are four points in favor of this.

1. Wikipedia is for a generalist audience, not just an academic one. Making academics read "Vol. 1 no. 2 p. 3" should not offend or confuse them, but making laypeople read "1 (2): 2" has a high likelihood for confusion.
2. Journals and magazines are both similar types of periodicals, yet one gets the terse in-source location format and the other does not.
3. The display of a volume number for a journal is also inconsistent with the format for the volume number in a book. Journals are the outlier here and should be adapted to conform to the rest.
4. Lastly, we already have guidance against abbreviating journal names, which is a standard practice in academic works, for accessibility to a general audience. Since Wikipedia is not distributed on paper, we don't need the space savings, however minimal that may be, of abbreviating the either the journal name or the volume/issue/page numbers. When the cost of saving space is comprehension, that savings should give way to comprehension.

For these reasons, I fully support the more verbose format from {{cite magazine}} over that of {{cite journal}}. If you need an external style guide for support, please see the Chicago Manual of Style, which has been used as an influence on CS1 in the past. Imzadi 1979 → 20:49, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I like that journals and magazines format their volume numbers differently. It allows me to tell at a glance whether a source comes from a tradition of academic peer review or not. Also some magazines have a tendency to play fast and loose with their volume / issue numeration, whereas journals tend to have a set structure. It makes sense to differentiate them. And frankly if I were princess of citation template styles, I'd format book chapter numbers in bold right before the page numbers, similar to how journals are handled now.

I haven't seen anyone produce an argument where a reader – even never having encountered APA citation style before – could actually take the step of attempting to verify a citation (by clicking a link, copy-pasting into a search field, or whatever), and still come away from the process uncertain about how to locate the cited source. If people aren't bothering to check the source, and are just copypasting our sources into their own work, or whatever process includes seeing the citation written out but not actually looking at it, I don't feel we owe them hand-holding. Folly Mox (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Cite tech report

With the move, the error messages and maint notices still point to cite techreport. Chandrasekhar Boyapati, William Beebee, Jr., Martin Rinard. A (Technical report).{{cite tech report}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) (Technical report). {{cite tech report}}: Missing or empty |title= (help) AManWithNoPlan (talk) 16:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed in the sandbox:

{{cite tech report/new | title=A |author1=Chandrasekhar Boyapati, William Beebee, Jr., Martin Rinard }}

Chandrasekhar Boyapati, William Beebee, Jr., Martin Rinard. A (Technical report).{{cite tech report}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

{{cite tech report/new | title=}}

(Technical report). {{cite tech report}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:11, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Trappist the monk, Can you also fix cite ssrn, vs the new cite SSRN also please. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 13:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Done. Also {{Cite arXiv}}, {{Cite bioRxiv}}, {{Cite CiteSeerX}}, and {{Cite medRxiv}}.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Translation link

For {{cite news}} or {{cite web}}, what parameter should be used to add a translation link to the original article (written in a foreign language) when both the URL and archive-URL have already been utilized? I don't see a translation-url or anything similar. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 17:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

There is no |translation-url= parameter.

If you are citing the translation of something and not the original-language source, cite the translation and use |url= to link to it if it is available online. You might include |type=Translation. If you are citing the original-language source, cite that and use |url= to link to it if it is available online. In either case, you can always add an external wikilink to the 'other' (translated or original-language source) after the closing braces of the {{cite <whatever>}} template.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Can you give me an example? For example, how to add a translation link to the following: {{cite news|url=www.abc.com/newsarticle.html|archive-url=web.archive.org/20230724091214/www.abc.com/newsarticle.html|title=News Article|work=ABC|date=March 23, 2021|archive-date=July 24, 2023|access-date=July 24, 2023|language=foreign|url-status=live}}. Thanks.--TerryAlex (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I played around with the parameters and found that if I use the |at= parameter and format it like this {{cite news|url=https://www.abc.com/newsarticle.html|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/20230724091214/www.abc.com/newsarticle.html|title=News Article|work=ABC|date=March 23, 2021|archive-date=July 24, 2023|access-date=July 24, 2023|language=foreign|url-status=live|at=[https://web.archive.org/20230725112323/www.translation.com/translationpage.html English Translation]}} It yields no error and the citation shows up looking properly. Is this a good way to do it or does it violate the citation format in any ways? Thanks.--TerryAlex (talk) 00:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

No. Do not abuse parameters to do something for which they are not designed. Just because you don't get an error message does not mean that the use is acceptable. In your example, the wikilink assigned to |at= will corrupt the citation's metadata. What I meant in my first post was something like this:

<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.abc.com/newsarticle.html |title=News Article |work=ABC |date=March 23, 2021 |access-date=July 24, 2023 |language=und}} [https://www.translation.com/translationpage.html English Translation]</ref>

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Got it. Thank you. I was initially confused and put the wikilink at the front and that syntax did not work.--TerryAlex (talk) 03:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Use a single video source as a cite but multiple timestamps?

I want to reference a single video but different timestamps, ideally using SFN style where that uses page numbers, is there a way of doing this for time stamps? Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:03, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Not a cs1|2 question. Does {{sfn}} parameter |loc= not do what you want?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:24, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe, I will take a look, the talk pag for Cite AV Media just brought me here. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

How about this or this? – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

References

support trans-series

• {{cite book|last1=Hiriart-Urruty|first1=Jean-Baptiste|last2=Lemaréchal|first2=Claude|author-link2=Claude Lemaréchal|year=1993|chapter=XII Abstract duality for practitioners|title=Convex analysis and minimization algorithms, Volume II: Advanced theory and bundle methods|series=Grundlehren der Mathematischen Wissenschaften |trans-series=Fundamental Principles of Mathematical Sciences|volume=306|publisher=Springer-Verlag |location=Berlin |pages=136–193 (and bibliographical comments on pp. 334–335)|isbn=3-540-56852-2 |mr=1295240}}
• Hiriart-Urruty, Jean-Baptiste; Lemaréchal, Claude (1993). "XII Abstract duality for practitioners". Convex analysis and minimization algorithms, Volume II: Advanced theory and bundle methods. Grundlehren der Mathematischen Wissenschaften. Vol. 306. Berlin: Springer-Verlag. pp. 136–193 (and bibliographical comments on pp. 334–335). ISBN 3-540-56852-2. MR 1295240. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |trans-series= ignored (help)

Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:05, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Any progress on this? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:50, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Rename category Category:CS1 maint: Zbl to Category:CS1 maint: Zbl format

For consistency with the other format categories (Bibcode, MR, PMC). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:04, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Category:CS1 maint: Bibcode format does not exist. Category:CS1 maint: MR format and Category:CS1 maint: PMC format exist to catch cases where editors write |mr=MR1234567 or |pmc=PMC12345 when they should have written |mr=1234567 or |pmc=12345. Category:CS1 maint: Zbl exists to catch cases where the specified identifier is temporary so that editors can come back later and provide the permanent identifier.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe it could be renamed Category:CS1 temporary Zbl label or some such, to be more clear about its non-label-format purpose? —David Eppstein (talk) 16:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

It's at Category:CS1 maint: bibcode, which should be shifted to Category:CS1 maint: bibcode format too. Unless we want both to be Category:CS1 maint: temporary bibcode and Category:CS1 maint: temporary Zbl. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:14, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Speaking of Category:CS1 maint: bibcode, I notice that maint_bibcode isn't defined in the Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration error_conditions table — that's why the category page is showing "Pages with this condition are automatically placed in unknown error_conditions key: maint_bibcode." instead of its own name. FeRDNYC (talk) 17:28, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's because the template hasn't been updated in eons. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:08, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Cite committee meeting and cite committee report

This morning, I tried repeatedly without success, first to archive on the WayBack Machine, then secondly to cite the two relevant webpages of the meeting on 19 July 2023 of the House of Commons Business and Trade Select Committee (1,2). The WayBack Machine failed to archive the two relevant Committee webpage. Using the easy citation tool in Wikipedias's Visual Editor, I was unable to cite either webpage of the Committee. Hence, I now need to cite the two webpages using the Wikipedia generic default of {WebCite}. I'm not sure what citation protocol best to follow. I've tried without success to look up the APA guidelines for citing committee meetings and committee reports. In my view, it would be helpful to have wikipedia citation templates specifically for citing committee meetings and citing committee reports.

[1] https://committees.parliament.uk/work/7774/food-and-fuel-price-inflation-will-prices-come-down-this-year

[2] https://committees.parliament.uk/event/19035/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/

Humanity Dick (talk) 11:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, {Cite web} not {WebCite}

Humanity Dick (talk) 12:06, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

There are editors at en.wiki who think that there are too many cs1|2 templates...

Wayback machine and Visual Editor failings are not in the Citation Style 1 remit. I can't speak to Wayback machine but for VE, it seems likely that no one has written a Zotero translator for the UK Parliament committees' websites.

I will not use the visual editor so were I citing these two web pages, using the source editor I might write something like this:

{{cite web |author=((Business and Trade Committee)) |date=19 July 2023 |title=Food and fuel price inflation: will prices come down this year? |website=UK Parliament |url=https://committees.parliament.uk/work/7774/food-and-fuel-price-inflation-will-prices-come-down-this-year}}

Business and Trade Committee (19 July 2023). "Food and fuel price inflation: will prices come down this year?". UK Parliament.

{{cite web |author=((Business and Trade Committee)) |date=19 July 2023 |title=Food and fuel price inflation: will prices come down this year? - Oral evidence |website=UK Parliament |url=https://committees.parliament.uk/event/19035/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/}}

Business and Trade Committee (19 July 2023). "Food and fuel price inflation: will prices come down this year? - Oral evidence". UK Parliament.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Trappist. Very helpful. I'm surprised you won't use Visual Editor. When I used to edit Wikipedia anonymously, much of my time was taken up trying to add reputable sources to support uncited assertions made by other editors. Because I'm partially disabled, I can't use a PC for very long before my back and neck become too painful. Hence, these days I'm forced to do all the work I once used to do sitting at a PC lying on my back pecking away with my right forefinger on the touch screen of my 2017 iPad resting on my abdomen. Using {Web Cite} takes me forever, in part because I also have various cognitive and visual disabilities that mean I'm very inept at even the most basic stuff I need to input, frequently making frustrating mistakes and errors I then have to try to fix, often succeeding only after multiple attempts. I never seem to learn the basics, making the same mistakes again and again. Hence, for me, and I suspect for many other disabled or partly disabled contributors, the Visual Editor and the citation templates are the best thing that have ever happened on Wikipedia Humanity Dick (talk) 16:33, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Humanity Dick: Re: archiving, the page has a lot of content buried behind links such as PDFs behind tabs. Archive.today works for single pages such as https://archive.ph/0Qv4n but would need to archive every sub-link individually. Another method is sign up for https://conifer.rhizome.org/ which allows one to interactively view links and it will record real time creating one giant archive. This is the best method for that kind of page. If you use Conifer and add it to Wikipedia, be sure to also include a {{cbignore}} otherwise IABot will remove it (c.f. T321146)-- GreenC 14:21, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, GreenC. Also very helpful and useful. I'll have to read and reread your suggestions many times before, if ever, I'm able to understand your advice. I'm always the tortoise not the hare. I'll try to follow your suggestions and see how I get on. Humanity Dick (talk) 16:38, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2023-08-01/Tips and tricks

This gives an overview of various citation tools out there. I figured many of you would get something out of this. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 05:52, 1 August 2023 (UTC)