View source for Help talk:Citation Style 1

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{{FAQ|page=Help talk:Citation Style 1/FAQ}}

== PMC limit too low ==

[[Trace Gas Orbiter]] has {{PMC|12506970}}, which is correct. It looks like there's currently an unreleased article with {{PMC|12513599}}, if that helps determine the upper limit of this increment. [[User:Snowman304|'''Snowman304''']]'''&#124;'''[[User talk:Snowman304|'''talk''']] 01:14, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

== SSRN value ==

Needs update per {{SSRN|5515282}}. [[User:DrKay|DrKay]] ([[User talk:DrKay|talk]]) 17:00, 14 October 2025 (UTC)

== Cite journal  ==

I don’t know if this applies to the other journals but you have to enter [month in words] [year] but in journals it is often written as [year] [month number] which messes up the automatic citation maker. [[User:Zhenghecaris|Houcaris]] ([[User talk:Zhenghecaris|talk]]) 20:44, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

:For example January 1988 and 1988-1. [[User:Zhenghecaris|Houcaris]] ([[User talk:Zhenghecaris|talk]]) 20:45, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
::Yes. "1988-1" or "1988-01" are not valid date formats on the English Wikipedia. See [[MOS:DATESNO]] for more information. You may need to edit the automatic output of citation tools. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 21:00, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
::We write dates according to the documentation for {{tl|Cite journal}}. How the publication being cited chooses to write dates doesn't matter. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 21:02, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

== "Others" field not working per "Cite book" documentation ==

Greetings and felicitations.  The [[Template:Cite book]] documentation currently states:

<blockquote>'''others''': To record other contributors to the work, including illustrators. For the parameter value, write ''Illustrated by John Smith''.</blockquote>

However, this is currently generating the "<nowiki>{{cite book}}</nowiki>: CS1 maint: others" error in [[Lady Annabel Goldsmith#Bibliography]] for:

<code><nowiki>* {{Cite book |author-mask=2 |year=2006 |title=Copper: A Dog's Life |url=https://archive.org/details/copperdogslife0000gold |url-access=registration |others=Illustrated by India Jane Birley |location=London |publisher=Time Warner |isbn=0-316-73204-4}}</nowiki></code>
* {{Cite book |author-mask=2 |year=2006 |title=Copper: A Dog's Life |url=https://archive.org/details/copperdogslife0000gold |url-access=registration |others=Illustrated by India Jane Birley |location=London |publisher=Time Warner |isbn=0-316-73204-4}}

What should the documentation state?  Or is there actually a mistake in the template's code? —[[User:DocWatson42|DocWatson42]] ([[User talk:DocWatson42|talk]]) 11:40, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
:{{color|#085|Manintenance messages}} are {{em|not}} {{color|#bf3c2c|errors}}.
:
:{{para|others}} is working as intended.  Its very name implies that the cs1|2 template has primary author/contributor/editor/etc parameters.  Your example template is incomplete; no author parameter even though {{para|author-mask|2}} suggests that there ought to be an author parameter.  {{para|others}} in its isolation causes {{tlx|cite book}} to emit the {{color|#085|manintenance message}}.  Follow the [[:Category:CS1_maint:_others|link]] at the end of the {{color|#085|manintenance message}}.
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 12:01, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
::Ah—right.  Thank you. —[[User:DocWatson42|DocWatson42]] ([[User talk:DocWatson42|talk]]) 12:04, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
::Since it's not currently obvious and apparently I can't do it myself, would you please be so kind as to add a notation to the parameter to the effect that use of an "author" or "editor" parameter are required for the "others" parameter to work.  (I prefer explicit, rather than implicit, instructions.) —[[User:DocWatson42|DocWatson42]] ([[User talk:DocWatson42|talk]]) 13:03, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
:::A primary author/contributor/editor/etc is {{em|not}} {{tq|required for the "others" parameter to work}}.  In cs1|2, missing 'required' parameters are {{color|#bf3c2c|errors}} and are indicated as such.  Look at your example above; the rendered template clearly identifies India Jane Birley as the illustrator.
:::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 13:24, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

== url-access=restricted? ==

What's the form for {{para|url-access}} for books which are only available under special circumstances -- for example, Internet Archive books for which you need print-disabled access? "Subscription" isn't quite right, since you can't pay for the subscription: could we have something like "restricted" with a black lock to say "most people can't access this at all, but it's here for the benefit of the minority who can?" ''[[User:UndercoverClassicist|<b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b>]]'' <sup>[[User talk:UndercoverClassicist|T]]·[[Special:Contributions/UndercoverClassicist|C]]</sup> 08:34, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

:See [[Help:Citation_Style_1#Registration_or_subscription_required]]. You likely want something like {{para|url-access|registration}} or {{para|url-access|limited}}. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 10:09, 22 October 2025 (UTC)
::No -- the issue is that none of the three (or four, if you count null) accepted parameters are true:
::* No entry means that the url is free to access by everybody -- this isn't true.
::* {{para|url-access|registration}} means that anyone can register for free -- this isn't true, since most people can't make that registration
::* {{para|url-access|limited}} means that users can sign up for a limited-time trial, and then have to pay for a subscription: this isn't true, since they can't do either of those.
::* {{para|url-access|subscription}} means that users need to buy a paid subscription, which (as above) doesn't exist and so they can't do. 
::We're missing an option 5 for "this is available only to specific people: if you're not one of them, you can't do anything, but it's better to have the link here for the minority who can use it rather than take it away from everyone". Other examples include works hosted on university databases that are only accessible to students/alumni/staff, or the occasional work that's only accessible from within a certain country. ''[[User:UndercoverClassicist|<b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b>]]'' <sup>[[User talk:UndercoverClassicist|T]]·[[Special:Contributions/UndercoverClassicist|C]]</sup> 10:31, 22 October 2025 (UTC)
:::"this is available only to specific people"
:::Then that's {{para|url-access|subscription}}. That specific people get a free subscrition is not something that needs to be highlighted. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 10:35, 22 October 2025 (UTC)
::::That raises the tooltip "paid subscription required", but in this case there's no paid subscription available. I suppose another option would be to make the tooltip more encompassing or allow it to be manually changed? ''[[User:UndercoverClassicist|<b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b>]]'' <sup>[[User talk:UndercoverClassicist|T]]·[[Special:Contributions/UndercoverClassicist|C]]</sup> 10:37, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

==Wide-spread "no footnote" errors in articles that haven't changed==
Something has broken {{tl|National Heritage List for England}}. This affects thousands of references on more than 100 articles.

One example is [[Listed buildings in Bamford]]. Lots of "Listed Buildings in" articles use the template for its footnotes. There are other articles (like [[Burleigh Pottery]]) which aren't about listed buildings, but also have new problems.

The template works in two modes. One mode is fine, the other causes "sfnp error: no target errors where there were no problems before. Now, invocations like <code><nowiki>{{sfnp|Historic England|1087857|ps=none}}</nowiki></code> are not working anymore. That invocation says there's "no target: CITEREFHistoric_England1087857".

There used to be: it ''was'' generated by <code><nowiki>{{NHLE |num= 1087857|desc= Moore's Farmhouse, Bamford|access-date= 28 February 2022|mode=cs2}}</nowiki></code>, but that doesn't work anymore.

I can't seem to narrow down what changed.  Any help? -- [[User:Mikeblas|mikeblas]] ([[User talk:Mikeblas|talk]]) 00:06, 23 October 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Mikeblas|Mikeblas]]: What happens if you click on the link in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burleigh_Pottery#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHistoric_England1297939-4 footnote 4]? I don't see the error message on my device. [[User:Rjjiii|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">Rjj<sup>iii</sup></span>]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii|talk]]) 00:32, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
::I see the error message.  You don't see it because you haven enabled their display in your common.css.  See {{cl|Harv_and_Sfn_template_errors#Displaying_error_messages|Category:Harv and Sfn template errors § Displaying error messages}}.
::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 01:14, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
:This is not new and it has nothing to do with Citation Style 1.  This is a classic case of a false positive result from [[Module:Footnotes]] which emits that message when it cannot find a match.  It cannot find a match because Module:Footnotes reads the article wikitext looking for anything that can be made into a <code>CITEREF</code> anchor/link.  Usually in cs1|2 citation templates the necessary information is author surnames (up to four) and the year portion of the source's date.  In your {{tlx|NHLE}} example, neither of those are present in the wikitext so Module:Footnotes emits the error message.  The {{tlx|sfnp}} template still links to the target.  
:
:Here is an example (using {{tlx|harvnb}} for simplicity:
:*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{harvnb|Historic England|1087857|ps=none}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{harvnb|Historic England|1087857|ps=none}}
:*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{NHLE |num= 1087857|desc= Moore's Farmhouse, Bamford|access-date= 28 February 2022|mode=cs2}}</syntaxhighlight>
:*:{{NHLE |num= 1087857|desc= Moore's Farmhouse, Bamford|access-date= 28 February 2022|mode=cs2}}
:If you click that short-form link, your browser should jump you to the {{tld|NHLE}} rendering.
:
:Inside {{tld|NHLE}}, there is code that sets the {{para|ref}} parameter of the underlying {{tlx|cite web}} template to {{tlx|SfnRef|Historic England|<nowiki>{{{num}}}</nowiki>}} where <code><nowiki>{{{num}}}</nowiki></code> in this example is <code>1087857</code>.  That is not visible to Module:Footnotes.  Despite the error message, the link from the short-form reference to the long-form reference works.  Click it an see.
:
:But, this particular use of {{tld|harvnb|Historic England|<nowiki>{{{num}}}</nowiki>}} creates a malformed rendering; that template should not be rendering an ampersand.  Pretty sure I've seen this particular issue discussed elsewhere.  You can get around these issues by writing:
:*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{harvnb|''Historic England'' 1087857|ps=none}}</syntaxhighlight> → {{harvnb|''Historic England'' 1087857|ps=none}}
:*<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{NHLE |num= 1087857|desc= Moore's Farmhouse, Bamford|access-date= 28 February 2022|mode=cs2|ref={{sfnref|Historic England 1087857}}}}</syntaxhighlight>
:*:{{NHLE |num= 1087857|desc= Moore's Farmhouse, Bamford|access-date= 28 February 2022|mode=cs2|ref={{sfnref|Historic England 1087857}}}}
:This works because Module:Footnotes can see the <syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">|ref={{sfnref|Historic England 1087857}}</syntaxhighlight> in the template wikitext and can see that it matches the {{tld|harvnb}} output.
:
:More detail and perhaps a better explanation of the false positive error messages can be found at {{cl|Harv and Sfn template errors}}.  This is not a new error and it is not caused by the module suite that underlies cs1|2 templates.
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 01:14, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
::The template is whitelisted in patterns section of [[Module:Footnotes/whitelist]], so these error shouldnt be happening. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 01:57, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
::There also [[Cleveland Point Light]] that has false positive no target errors for CITEREFLighthouses_of_Australia_Inc, which has also been whitelisted in [[Module:Footnotes/whitelist]]. Could this be a [[WP:THURSDAY]] thing? -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 02:07, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
:::I've raised the issue at {{slink|Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)|anchor_encoding_changed?}}
:::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:24, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
::But that's just not true: it's ''certainly'' new. These citations were not flagged just a few days ago. -- [[User:Mikeblas|mikeblas]] ([[User talk:Mikeblas|talk]]) 15:20, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
::This issue looks like it's been fixed[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#c-SBassett_(WMF)-20251030213000-ActivelyDisinterested-20251025202200], purging an effected article may be required. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 21:48, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
==Citing multiple chapters with different authors from a book==
Could've sworn there was a way to do the following, but I can't find it now:

Editor last, first (date) ''Book title'' ....

{{nbsp}}{{nbsp}}{{nbsp}}{{nbsp}}Author last, first "chapter title" in editor last (date) ... 

Thanks ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: #A81B00">buidhe</span>]]''' 15:57, 24 October 2025 (UTC)
:{{tlx|harvc}}?
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 16:01, 24 October 2025 (UTC)
::That's what I was looking for, thank you! ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: #A81B00">buidhe</span>]]''' 16:08, 24 October 2025 (UTC)

== Better handling of duplicate IDs in [[Template:Citation]] et al ==

Is there such a thing as a standard to create IDs for citations that dictates they must be in the format <code>CITEREFsurname1[...surnameN]YEAR</code> ? Because if there isn't, the template should simply use more data to ensure IDs aren't duplicate (say, add the initials of the title) rather than forcing editors to use 2008a, 2008b for the year to work around the template's limitations. [[User:Tactica|Tactica]] ([[User talk:Tactica|talk]]) 03:41, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Tactica|Tactica]]: But how would [[Module:Footnotes]] footnotes anticipate those? [[User:Rjjiii|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">Rjj<sup>iii</sup></span>]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii|talk]]) 03:45, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
:Also, this is how [https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/citations/basic-principles/same-year-author APA] and other citation styles handle this issue. [[User:Rjjiii|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">Rjj<sup>iii</sup></span>]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii|talk]]) 03:47, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
:You can always use the {{para|ref}} parameter in the cite with {{tl|sfnref}} to change the CITEREF to anything you want. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 15:28, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
:I support this. Currently there is no way in finding valid lint errors with duplicate IDs as the noise from this template hides them. [[Module:Footnotes]] should be modified to accept any change that is done here. What APA or other styles do is irrelevant. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 18:26, 3 November 2025 (UTC)

== Do not recommend use of invalid markup ==

At [[Template:Citation Style documentation]] there is a recommendation to {{xt|Precede the sample markup with : to create an indent}}. This is an abuse of a description list and results in invalid HTML ({{tag|dd|o}} with no preceding {{tag|dt|o}}, which is not allowed). Indentation is really not necessary, so this line should simply be removed. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] ([[User talk:Hairy Dude|talk]]) 01:32, 31 October 2025 (UTC)

== ISBN / Date incompatibility ==

{{Ping|Trappist the monk|Keriluamox|TSP|ActivelyDisinterested|Nthep|Jc3s5h|Praemonitus|Headbomb|David Eppstein|Redrose64|Mathglot|Fram|Noleander|Mackensen|Mikeblas|Michael Bednarek|Mojo Hand|Pppery|Jonesey95|GreenLipstickLesbian|Rjjiii}} There is a discussion at [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 98#ISBN / Date incompatibility]] running from 15 to 30 April 2025 on the CS1 error emitted for citations with years before 1965 and isbns. Most of the editors agreed that this situation is not good, and two final comments were
* A condition that issues an error message for >33000 pages ({{cl|CS1 errors: ISBN date|count=yes}}) doesn't seem meaningful. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 03:47, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
* Meanwhile, I keep seeing new instances of this error generated by Citation bot adding bad reprint isbns to old references, sometimes on articles where previous instances of the same error have already been manually corrected, and no response to my error report saying as much a week after I filed it: [[User talk:Citation bot/Archive 41#Adds isbn for book with publication year before 1965]]. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 07:23, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
And the discussion petered out. But it still needs to be fixed. Just now I edited [[Stylized fact]], where I found a <span style="color:green">CS1 maint: location missing publisher</span>, so I went to 
* {{cite web |title=The Theory of Capital Hardcover – Import, January 1, 1961 |website=Amazon |url=https://www.amazon.com/Capital-Friedrich-1901-1975-International-Economic/dp/0333045742}}
and added the publisher and the ISBN, only to be faced with this dilemma:
{|class="wikitable"
! citation alternative
! markup
! display 
|-
| style="text-align:center" | year 
|<code><nowiki>{{cite book |author=Friedrich A. Lutz |editor=D. C. Hague |title=The Theory of Capital |publisher=Macmillan |location=London |year=1961 |isbn=978-0333045749}}</nowiki></code>
|{{cite book |author=Friedrich A. Lutz |editor=D. C. Hague |title=The Theory of Capital |publisher=Macmillan |location=London |year=1961 |isbn=978-0333045749}}
|-
| style="text-align:center" | orig-year 
|<code><nowiki>{{cite book |author=Friedrich A. Lutz |editor=D. C. Hague |title=The Theory of Capital |publisher=Macmillan |location=London |orig-year=1961 |isbn=978-0333045749}}</nowiki></code>
|{{cite book |author=Friedrich A. Lutz |editor=D. C. Hague |title=The Theory of Capital |publisher=Macmillan |location=London |orig-year=1961 |isbn=978-0333045749}}
|}
* If I use {{para|year}} I get a spurious red CS1 error message. 
* If I use {{para|orig-year}} the year doesn't display at all.
This is not OK. We discussed this 6 months ago. Let's settle it. Do we get rid of this CS1 error entirely, or replace it with a maintenance message? I might be OK with a maintenance message, as long as there is a way to suppress it with something like {{para|isbn-verified|yes}}. It should ''not'' be necessary to use hacks like putting the ISBN in parentheses or adding a reprint date. One editor might read the book and verify the reference, and another editor might find the ISBN on the Internet, never see the book, and have no idea about the reprint date, which is irrelevant anyway, as Wikipedia does not care about reprint dates. —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 06:48, 31 October 2025 (UTC)

Postscript: The most populous subcategory of [[:Category:CS1 errors]] is [[:Category:CS1 errors: ISBN date]] with 45,926 pages, which is 27.23% of the total of 168,684 pages. —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 08:41, 31 October 2025 (UTC)
:That ISBN is questionable, so the error message makes sense. You added the ISBN without verifying that the ISBN actually appears on the printed book in question. It doesn't take me to any books at Google Books or Worldcat. I would use {{OCLC|2025527}} instead. That leads me to a page with links to holdings of the actual book in 617 libraries. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 13:26, 3 November 2025 (UTC)
::[[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]]: Open Library recognizes the ISBN as belonging to [https://openlibrary.org/books/OL47711366M/The_Theory_of_Capital The Theory of Capital by Lutz F.A.]. Do you think this is valid, or is Open Library just vacuuming up "errors" from Amazon? —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 21:16, 3 November 2025 (UTC)
:::The latter seems likely. The history of that OL record says that it was imported from somewhere. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 21:49, 3 November 2025 (UTC)

:I'm fairly sure the reason there are 45,926 pages with the CS1 errors is because of CitationBot, which has a feature to add ISBN numbers to book references. It might look up the title in a database (Open Library), or check a Google Books URL, retrieve the ISBN, and add it. This creates ambiguity - is the {{para|year}} edition correct, or the {{para|ISBN}} edition. They might be different editions with different page number schemes. It can seem like a minor problem but can have big consequences, like for processes adding links to page numbers within digitized books, that open to the wrong page, making verification inaccurate. ISBNs are so fraught with problems, unless there is a match on author+date+publisher - against both the Wiki citation and the target ISBN metadata - it can't be assumed to be reliable. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 02:14, 4 November 2025 (UTC)
:: Summarizing [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] and [[User:GreenC|GreenC]] and adding my own thoughts, it seems the propagation of errors is 
::* Amazon has both correct and incorrect ISBNs for books published both before and after ISBNs were introduced. 
::* Open Library vacuums up Amazon ISBNs without verification. 
::* Citation Bot vacuums up ISBNs from Open Library and creates Google Books page links based on ISBNs that are sometimes wrong, for books published before & after ISBNs were introduced.
:: I agree this is a mess. But
::* ISBN/Date mismatch is more of a warning than an error, since it might not be an error.
::* There needs to be a way for Wikipedians to verify ISBNs from truly reliable sources (list required) that ISBNs are correct and turn off the warning.
::* Ultimately, every web-based book page reference needs an access-date as a Wikipedian's statement of matching the reference to the assertions immediately preceding the reference. 
::* A failed verification could be because the original editor made an unwarranted leap of logic from the book page, or because the online page doesn't match the original page. The Wiki fact checker doesn't necessarily know which of these is the reason.
:: —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 20:36, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

== Why restrict usage of the volume and issue parameters? ==

What is the purpose of the following code snippets in [[Module:Citation/CS1]]?

<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
	local Volume;
	if 'citation' == config.CitationClass then
		if utilities.is_set (Periodical) then
			if not utilities.in_array (Periodical_origin, cfg.citation_no_volume_t) then	-- {{citation}} does not render |volume= when these parameters are used
				Volume = A['Volume'];											-- but does for all other 'periodicals'
			end
		elseif utilities.is_set (ScriptPeriodical) then
			if 'script-website' ~= ScriptPeriodical_origin then					-- {{citation}} does not render volume for |script-website=
				Volume = A['Volume'];											-- but does for all other 'periodicals'
			end
		else
			Volume = A['Volume'];												-- and does for non-'periodical' cites
		end
	elseif utilities.in_array (config.CitationClass, cfg.templates_using_volume) then	-- render |volume= for cs1 according to the configuration settings
		Volume = A['Volume'];
	end	
</syntaxhighlight>
<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
	local Issue;
	if 'citation' == config.CitationClass then
		if utilities.is_set (Periodical) and utilities.in_array (Periodical_origin, cfg.citation_issue_t) then	-- {{citation}} may render |issue= when these parameters are used
			Issue = utilities.hyphen_to_dash (A['Issue']);
		end
	elseif utilities.in_array (config.CitationClass, cfg.templates_using_issue) then	-- conference & map books do not support issue; {{citation}} listed here because included in settings table
		if not (utilities.in_array (config.CitationClass, {'conference', 'map', 'citation'}) and not (utilities.is_set (Periodical) or utilities.is_set (ScriptPeriodical))) then
			Issue = utilities.hyphen_to_dash (A['Issue']);
		end
	end
</syntaxhighlight>

Why not just do {{code|1=local Volume = A['Volume'];}} and {{code|1=local Issue = A['Issue'];}} unconditionally?

{{ping|Trappist the monk}} It looks like you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox&diff=691674755&oldid=691668552 added the first checks here just about 10 years ago]. Why?

[[User:Sollyucko|Solomon Ucko]] ([[User talk:Sollyucko|talk]]) 02:27, 4 November 2025 (UTC)
:Because, at [[Special:Permalink/693910252#.7Cvolume.3D.2C_.7Cissue.3D.2C_.7Cpage.28s.29.3D_and_cite_magazine|this discussion]], we determined that there are cs1 templates that do not need to support {{para|volume}} and/or {{para|issue}}.  The table in that discussion, in an evolved form, lives at {{slink|Help:Citation_Style_1|Pages}}.  The code snippets above limit the availability of {{para|volume}} and {{para|issue}} to {{tlx|citation}} because {{tld|citation}}, given the same parameters, is supposed to render more-or-less the same as the equivalent cs1 template; {{tlx|cite web}}, for example, does not support {{para|volume}} and {{para|issue}} so {{tld|citation}} using {{para|website}} does not support those parameters:
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite web |title=Title |url=https://example.com |website=Example |volume=1 |issue=2}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{cite web |title=Title |url=https://example.com |website=Example |volume=1 |issue=2}}
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{citation |title=Title |url=https://example.com |website=Example |volume=1 |issue=2}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{citation |title=Title |url=https://example.com |website=Example |volume=1 |issue=2}}
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:09, 4 November 2025 (UTC)
::In that discussion, all I see is you repeatedly pushing to limit which templates render these parameters, and other users either commenting on adjacent topics, or suggesting additional template/parameter pairs to allow, but not specifically agreeing with such a limitation.
::You seem to be justifying it as a way to avoid mixing styles within a citation, but couldn't you solve that by just having consistent criteria between the parameters for when to use each style? (IMO, it should be 'journal citations get the minimalist style and everything else gets the labeled style'.)
::And if I'm trying to cite a source that defies your expectations, such as a multi-volume conference proceedings monograph, a report with an issue number (perhaps I should use the confusingly-documented <code>|series=</code> here, but an actual message suggesting this could be helpful), or a sign/similar with some kind of flaps/pages that can be flipped through, what am I expected to do?
::And how did you even decide which ones should allow them and which ones should silently ignore them? For example, what use are <code>|volume=</code> and <code>|issue=</code> with {{tl|cite interview}}, or <code>|volume=</code> with {{tl|cite thesis}}?
::Trying to pre-emptively guess what could be useful where just seems like a waste of everyone's time to me, when it would be trivial to just not bother distinguishing.
::I guess I can find workarounds as needed, but it's just a huge hassle that I find very frustrating...
::BTW, as to your question "Are we to render <code>|volume=</code>, <code>|issue=</code>, and <code>|page(s)=</code> all together as a group or allow the meta-parameters <code>Others</code>, <code>Edition</code>, <code>Publisher</code>, and <code>Agency</code> to separate <code>|issue=</code> from <code>|page(s)=</code>?": Minimalist-style citations end up being very confusing when the page number ends up after those parameters (except maybe Edition), so I would prefer that the formatting for them keep the volume, page, and issue together, perhaps like "''Journal'' (Edition ed.; Publisher-Location: Publisher) '''Volume''' (Issue): Pages. Agency. Others." For labeled-format citations, they're legible enough regardless of ordering, so I don't care too strongly what they use, but doing this kind of thing for them too is good with me.
::[[User:Sollyucko|Solomon Ucko]] ([[User talk:Sollyucko|talk]]) 19:25, 4 November 2025 (UTC)