Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2023-06-05/News and notes

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I love how Medeyko tries to frame this as an issue of reliable sources and coverage, when anyone with a brain is aware that the actual issue is that the articles don't lie about ongoing events with the Russian government. Pure propaganda nonsense. Silverseren^C 01:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd like to personally thank those Russian Wikipedians who have stood up for the values of the Wikipedia community. Stas is just one, but I know there are many others. It's not an easy time to be a Russian, but those who have stood up to the powers-that-be can walk proudly after this is all over. I'd also like to thank those who have stayed "neutral" during this time. Even staying neutral can be dangerous in this situation, and does not add to the problems of others. And ordinary non-Wikipedian Russians deserve a pat on the back as well. Why doesn't the Russian government simply close down Wikipedia without the rigamarole? Because they know there would be a large outcry if they did. These folks are all doing what they can. Thank you, thank you all. So what are the authorities doing all these forks for? Just to fool the public into thinking that they aren't planning to close Wikipedia. It's a sleight of hand trick. Plain dishonesty. Any Wikipedian who participates in the new fork should be ashamed. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to personally thank those Russian Wikipedians who have stood up for the values of the Wikipedia community. +1, they deserve a lot of respect. In this kind of situation it's obviously much harder to do that than for most of us in other countries. But it's also especially valuable.

Regarding your theory about the Russian authorities though, they don't really seem to try very hard to to fool the public into thinking that they aren't planning to close Wikipedia - there have been several recent statements to the contrary, e.g. by Valery Fadeyev:

"'My opinion on Wikipedia is that it should be shut down. (...) There is no alternative now. It is necessary to create an alternative as soon as possible and close Wikipedia - this is my position,' said the head of the HRC [ Human Rights Council ]."
— lenta.ru/news/2023/04/04/matveychev/, Google Translate

Regards, HaeB (talk) 05:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's nice to agree on things. +1 form me too, for the record. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your thanks. We have a very harsh times now and keeping Wikipedia values is very difficult and dangerous. -- ssr (talk) 09:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fadeyev is not one who influences decisions like that. He may say anything, it is not any indication of real plans and intentions of those who really make decisions. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 23:49, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Medeyko is mainly interested in money. For many years, they tried to disrupt WLM competition in Russia, where I am one of the organizers, because they had some sponsors and wanted to use the sponsor money for WLM to get themselves a fraction of these. He also had a huge crowd of his paid editor friends. It is of course does not help that he openly supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but he has been net negative for the Wikimedia movement since at least mid-2000s. Just nobody wanted to listen to us. Now he realized that sponsors in Russia will not give him money just for his position in Wikimedia.ru, and he made a fork to get the sponsors' money. As simple as that. Ymblanter (talk) 14:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zooming out a bit from individual people's failings: We weren't able to cover that angle in the Signpost story (and it would probably be premature anyway), but from the ruwiki village pump discussions, it seems that there are some concerns and questions about the chapter's financial transparency in recent years (and also about its collection of personal data, through Medeyko). At m:Wikimedia Affiliates Data Portal/Reports, Wikimedia RU is currently flagged as past due for both its activity and financial reports (the most recent one dates from 2020 in both cases), and on May 31 it received a "Notification of Affiliate Expiration - Renewal pending submission of reporting". This kind of organizational transparency in financial and other matters often tends to be viewed as a boring formality - until it suddenly isn't. The aforementioned notification indicates that failings in that regard at least do not go entirely unnoticed. But one may wonder if more effective and timely enforcement could help chapters who are at the risk of drifting off into situations like the one that the remaining WMRU members apparently have to repair now. Regards, HaeB (talk) 05:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If I remember correctly, Wikimedia.ru was designated by the WMF as "ineligible for funding" in smth like 2012 due to persistent lack of delivering activity reports in time. And the situation with reporting was apparently bad all the way down, but this did not lead to any consequences. Ymblanter (talk) 10:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that you didn't reach me for comments. I thought it would be interesting to have first-hand explanations from a long-term wikimedian. :)

What Mr. Blanter writes about me above is a lie. I'm not "mainly interested in money". Wikimedia RU was never a great source of money, I was getting much more money as a professional programmer and analyst. After 22.02.2022 Wikimedia RU lost any prospects of getting grants, universities stopped to accept our lecturers, partners rejected or postponed contests... It became impossible to promote free knowledge with a link to Wikipedia in Russia. Last months the only reliable source of money for Wikimedia RU was my personal salaries from sources absolutely unrelated to Wikipedia and Wikimedia movement. As for Wikimedia RU reporting - I agree that my reporting is poor; but please take in account that activities that I was making at Wikimedia RU are normally divided between several professionals - accountants, lawyers, programmers, system administrators, translators, writers, couriers, etc; any faults are agressively criticised, this is quite demotivating and forcing a procrastination; and that I asked colleagues for help with preparing the report but got little help; I was wishing to step down for years, but it was clear that no one wished to take my shoes. However, I'm still going to help colleagues in Wikimedia RU to the extent they and I wish and can. I wish the colleagues success!

The statement "he openly supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine" is another lie. I understand that I know too few about real causes and circumstances of the actions to take any side, and so have never expressed a support for any side.

The statement about claimed Wikimedia RU ineligibility due to lack of reporting is untrue too, to my best knowledge. Wikimedia RU has never received or requested funding from WMF (the personal travel grants to Wikimedia Summit and CEE Meeting are not counted). It seems that Mr. Blanter mixed up with ineligibility for annual grants due to absense of record of specific projects grants (which Wikimedia RU simply has never asked for too, that's why there was no records).

There's a lot of other lies. I still hope that you are interested in truth, not hoaxes. So your questions are welcome! Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 23:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am not interested in discussing anything in you. You are not a user in good standing. I hope T&S will take care of your global account soon. Ymblanter (talk) 11:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My message was not addressed to you. Also I would mention that harassment is prohibited towards the user in any standing. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 14:05, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For people interested in the U4CBC I will be posting updates about it here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quite perplexed by the reporting on the Foundation India maps story. The story says "...the Foundation meticulously identified twelve maps of India that required attention. These maps...notably lacked any indication of the border dispute in their visual representation or accompanying captions...", and illustrates this with a map which is captioned "One of the maps of India identified as requiring attention", and yet that map very plainly includes visual representation of the border dispute. Another one of the meticulously identified maps has an in-image legend explaining the dispute! CMD (talk) 01:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Haven't looked at any images, but the traditional Commons policy is that in the case of real-world border disputes, maps can be uploaded reflecting either side's claims, and then the individual Wikimedia projects (language Wikipedias etc) decide locally which images are useful for them... AnonMoos (talk) 02:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's well known that India is involved in long-term border demarcation disputes with several neighbouring countries. It's also common practice for publishers of maps of India to include a suitably worded disclaimer on such maps pointing out that the borders shown on the relevant map are not intended to be authoritative. India also has laws addressing what maps can depict. Against that background, it seems entirely reasonable for the Indian government to make complaints about specific maps on Commons and ask that the maps be changed. The issue is not a trivial one, and the Indian government's complaint is not frivolous. Perhaps the way forward is for someone to invite the Indian government to provide drafts of modified maps depicting the modifications it wants, so that they can be discussed by the Wikimedia community. Bahnfrend (talk) 06:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, laws about which version of (political) reality maps are allowed to show, and attempts to pressure Commons with a threat of preventing access to Wikipedia, are, in my view, fundamentally unreasonable. Maybe Pakistan or China can now get in on the act too, then perhaps every map depicting a disputed border will have to be surrounded by disclaimers - regardless of whether they have anything to do with the focus of the article.

If the border is shown in an article for its political relevance, then it may improve clarity for the dispute to be indicated; let the community sort it out, but this government ministry opening with threats gives me a bad taste in my mouth. CharredShorthand.talk; 13:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're free to disregard the threats as we see fit, but we might as well at least understand what the dispute is about first. Out of interest, is there any community discussion taking place on this issue yet? It's the first time I'm hearing about it... — Amakuru (talk) 13:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru, there's Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Communications from government of India to Wikimedia Foundation regarding content about maps depicting the borders of India Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That link was in the article for a while then got lost/removed during editing. Oh well. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's the first link in the article. I'll edit the description to make it a bit clearer. Andreas JN 466 16:09, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many congratulations to Prasan Shrestha for winning the contest! This was the first time I've ever taken part in the voting process, and I've got to say the list was full of unbelievably wonderful pictures. Well done everybody! Oltrepier (talk) 07:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As we say in the 'hood, forks come and go, Wikipedia stays. Comrade a!rado🇷🇺 (C🪆T) 16:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]