Help talk:IPA/Danish

/a/ and /aː/ missing from key

I notice that the symbols /a/ and /aː/ (the front open vowel in IPA) are present in Wiktionary's phonemic entries (for example in land, valke, a total of 1395 times in my data), but not present in the key here. I'm not a speaker of Danish, and was wondering if any anyone might help me figure this out and correct the key. My first guess was that /æ/ (IPA's near-open front) in the key might actually correspond to /a/ in the majority of phonemic entries, since there are only 39 instances of /æ/ in Wiktionary. In other words, most of Wiktionary's entries actually use Den Danske Ordbog's transcription /a/, which is not reflected in the key. My first check was the word "græde" in the key here for /æ/ which is given as [ˈgʁaːðə] in the Ordbog, and "række" is [ˈʁagə]; while in Wiktionary, we have "græde" /ɡræːðə/ but no phonemic transcription for "række" (just the narrow transcription [ˈʁaɡ̊ə]).

However, when I look up some more of the 39 Wiktionary /æ/ words, I get inconsistent results from the Ordbog, for instance "regering" [ʁεˈgeˀɐ̯eŋ], modsat [ˈmoðˌsad], lukaf [lɔgˈæˀ], anden [ˈanəð], all of which have /æ/ in Wiktionary. I wonder if these 39 /æ/ words are mostly incorrect, and the key's /æ/ simply corresponds to /a/ in the majority of entries (in which case this should be fixed)? Thank you for any clarifications. For reference, here are the 39 /æ/ words: ['a', "a'erne", "a'ernes", "a'ers", "a'et", "a'ets", "a's", 'aldring', 'andet', 'bejae', 'børnehave', 'fladfisk', 'grundlovsdag', 'græde', 'indebrændt', 'kvæk', 'lukaf', 'manden', 'mexicansk', 'modsat', 'momentan', 'napoli', 'nervøs', 'nervøsitet', 'nicaraguansk', 'nævn', 'nævne', 'opmærksomhed', 'overfladisk', 'regering', 'samtale', 'sandslot', 'sfære', 'sydafrikaner', 'sydafrikansk', 'testikel', 'ugedag', 'vandløs', 'velsmagende'] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Craig Baker (talk • contribs) 15:38, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Contradiction in "kræft" between DDO and the article

The table claims that the sound "æ" in "kræft" is different from "æ" in "række". Moreover, according to the table the former is transcribed as "ɑ" while the latter as "a" in DDO. However, I looked up "kræft" and "række" in DDO to find that the pronunciation is introduced as [ˈkʁafd] and [ˈʁagə], both using "a" and not using "ɑ" for the former. Is it a mistake? I'm new to Danish so I may be missing something. Hydro I. Hue (talk) 18:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Scroll down. Nardog (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid to say that I cannot find any clue below. Is something mentioned in the footnote or do I need to refer something in this talk page...? Hydro I. Hue (talk) 16:57, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

What do you see in the "Comparison of transcription schemes" section? Nardog (talk) 17:13, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

OK I'm sorry I didn't clarify enough. I am actually talking about the "Comparison of transcription schemes" table. In the second column is an examle word "kræft", and in the eighth, "række". The entry for "Den Danske Ordbog" is ɑ and a, but in actual DDO I see [ˈkʁafd] and [ˈʁagə]. Hydro I. Hue (talk) 06:10, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Oh, my bad, I thought you were talking about the difference between our IPA and DDO. I don't remember DDO diverging from Basbøll in terms of vowel analysis, but I guess we overlooked it. DDO's guide to pronunciation does mention the potential homophony of kræft and kraft FWIW. Nardog (talk) 15:53, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it up! Hydro I. Hue (talk) 21:09, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Symbols for the open central vowels

Can't we just use ⟨a aː⟩ for the open central vowels? Our system of transcription is very similar to that found in [1], which uses ⟨a aː⟩ for them. ⟨ɑ ɑː⟩ explicitly suggest a back quality, close to [ɒ, ɒː] which they are not. ⟨a(ː)⟩ is the most usual symbol for the open central vowels because it's a Roman letter and we use it in Help:IPA/German, Help:IPA/Spanish, Help:IPA/Italian etc. (and also Australian English phonology and New Zealand English phonology) - and that's ignoring the fact that the Danish vowels seem to be even closer to cardinal [a] (being near-front, rather than central) than those. The difference between the Danish pronunciation of the given name Lars and the Swedish one is very noticeable (see [2]). The Swedish one sounds like Lårsj in Danish, whereas the Danish pronunciation is very similar to the German one (as long as the /r/ is vocalized in the latter: [ˈlaːs], rather than [ˈlaɐ̯s] which is not possible in either German or Danish). It's somewhat like Läs in younger Stockholm pronunciation, though obviously more open/central.

(The same question applies to Danish phonology, obviously). Sol505000 (talk) 08:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I really prefer the current way. ⟨a⟩ is commonly used for what we transcribe with ⟨æ⟩, so keeping ⟨ɑ⟩ means one less thing to worry about when comparing transcriptions in sources. If the IPA had a symbol whose canonical value was open central, I'd support using it in a heartbeat, but given the ambiguity that plagues ⟨a⟩, I don't find your suggestion to be an improvement. We deviate from established ("normalized") symbols only where they are patently misrepresentative and confusing. This is not one of them. Nardog (talk) 12:17, 16 February 2023 (UTC)