Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Scouting

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Discussion about a re-scope/move/merge can continue editorially, if desired. It's clear that there isn't going to be a consensus to delete the material, therefore this does not require another relist, which I'm not sure would bring about further consensus anyway given the scope questions. Star Mississippi 01:54, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Northern New Jersey Council

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This is entirely sourced to BSA promotional material. My own searching fails to find any sources that meet WP:SIRS. A small portion of this material (say, a list of the camps with 1-2 sentences about each) could be merged into Scouting in New Jersey with a redirect left behind. The vast majority is low-level trivia, as noted in January. Garden State Council in the parent article is a good example of what makes sense. Much of it ("By drawing on the strengths of each of these individual councils and merging them together, the Northern New Jersey Council has committed itself to offering the finest Scouting programs, increasing membership and providing strong, supportive leadership") is WP:G11 material.

I propose this with some sadness, having been a member of Troop 350 when I was a kid, and enjoyed many a camping trip to Alipine, NoBe, and Floodwood, where I earned my 50 miler award. But none of that means this meets WP:N. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:50, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Scouting and New Jersey. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:50, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment @RoySmith: Do I understand that you are proposing to Redirect and merge the content of the page to Scouting in New Jersey? --evrik ^(talk) 15:33, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps AfD was the wrong forum, but yes, that's essentially what I'm proposing. But, not everything, not even half as you suggest below. The vast majority of this is trivia and needs to be dropped. This has been tagged for improvements of various kinds for years, so I don't have much optimism that anybody's going to come forth and find better sources. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:41, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Admittedly, about half of what's here should be cut out. However, the remaining information is notable. I would suggest that someone take the time to thoroughly edit this work. I'm sure that we can find sources to substantiate most of what's here. Redirect this to Scouting in New Jersey. If someone want to take the time to bring it up to snuff, we can remove the redirect. --evrik ^(talk) 15:33, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and procedural close I think the proposer came to the wrong place. All the the discussion were about improvements needed in the article, not about valid reasons for deletion of the article. The topic would clearly meet GNG. BTW, I think "promotional" is too strong of a term......"self descriptive" would be a better one. I may try a few tweaks. North8000 (talk) 19:15, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I made some tweaksNorth8000 (talk) 19:27, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am always amused when someone spends more time trying to get an article deleted than contributing to improve the work. --evrik ^(talk) 02:26, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please list the independent sources which support this meeting GNG. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are now five:

Slocum, John W. (1963-04-25). "JERSEY ACQUIRES BOY SCOUTS' CAMP|Buys 300 Acres at Alpine for Public Park Under Green Acres Plan Tract West of 9W". New York Times.

Kalleser, Steven W. Jacek P. Siry; Pete Bettinger; Krista Merry; Donald L. Grebner; Kevin Boston; Chris Cieszewski (eds.). Camp No-Be-Bo-Sco. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)

Gormly, Kellie B. (2021-10-26). "The 1980 Slasher Movie 'Friday the 13th' Was Filmed at This Boy Scout Camp in New Jersey". Smithsonian Mag.

Zusman, Albert B. (Summer 1999). Boy Scout Camps along the Delaware River (PDF). Spanning the Gap. Vol. 21. Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area.

Kean, Thomas H. (1985). Remarks of Governor Thomas H. Kean, Hudson-Hamilton Council of Boy Scouts of America, Meadowlands, Friday, May 3, 1985.

--evrik ^(talk) 13:22, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of these are WP:SIGCOV of the subject

Slocum is coverage of a real estate sale 60 years ago by a predecessor entity, which doesn't say anything about the council beyond the terms of the land sale.
Kalleser is extensive coverage of the history of NoBeBoSco, but only makes passing mentions of the North Bergen Council as related to the camp.
Gormly covers the slasher movie made at NoBeBoSco, but again, just a passing mention of Northern New Jersey Council as the owner of the camp.
Zusman talks about Boy Scout camps in general, with a short section about NoBeBoSco as part of the list. I don't see anything that even mentions the council.
Kean is a political speech by the state governor. I can't find the full text, but from the abstract linked to on Google Books, it doesn't sound very significant to me. If you have a source for the full text, I'd be happy to look at it in more detail.

WP:GNG requires that coverage for organizations Contain significant coverage addressing the subject of the article directly and in depth. These sources fall well short of that.

-- RoySmith (talk) 16:19, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You know that those things you mentioned above refer to the camps, etc. which are all parts of the council? --evrik ^(talk) 20:06, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I do know that. I also know that notability is not inherited. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:21, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTINHERITED? Which passages apply here? --evrik ^(talk) 20:25, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of these sources are talking about the council. They are (mostly) talking about camps that the council owns. But, the key point is that there is no significant coverage of the council. WP:SIGCOV requires that the sources addresses the topic directly and in detail. How do any of these sources address the Northern New Jersey Council directly and in detail? -- RoySmith (talk) 20:38, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The camps are the primary focus of the council. You can't separate one from the other. --evrik ^(talk) 21:07, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik I respectfully disagree. It could be possible to have an article about Camp No-Be-Bo-Sco (if it meets the notability requirements) with or without having an article about the council. GoingBatty (talk) 03:15, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GoingBatty: As you may remember, both Camp NoBeBoSco and Camp No-Be-Bos-Co have existed in the past, and were merged with this article. Yes, a camp article could exist without an article on the council. However, I am not advocating on articles about the camps. If you look below, there are at least four articles about the council, and then there are those tha cover the camp. --evrik ^(talk) 03:28, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Found three sources that describes the council:

Heyboer, Kelly (2021-11-29). "2 N.J. Boy Scout councils selling camps to pay for sexual abuse settlements". NJ.com.
"Forest Green, Dollar Green". The Montclair Times. Montclair, New Jersey. 2001-05-24. p. A8.
Gregory, Howard (November 27, 1998). "4 Boy Scout Councils Will Consolidate". The Record. Hackensack, New Jersey. p. 111.

--evrik ^(talk) 21:07, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and re-name List of camps of the Northern New Jersey Council. As acknowledged, the information about the camps is well documented. Djflem (talk) 06:35, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone that follows these things, someone decided to take a whack at declaring that one of the sources is not valid: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_this_self-published_book_a_RS? --evrik ^(talk) 03:28, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:15, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Evrik's comment about a source's reliability; I think that discussion has no bearing on deletion discussion outcomes, as being self-published has always disqualified a source from being able to help satisfy GNG. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:45, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

IMO clearly meets GNG. There is one argument against that which is really unfounded. Which is saying to coverage about things which are a part of the council is not coverage of the council. By definition, the council consists of all of it's parts. Saying to exclude coverage of the things that it consists of is not correct. North8000 (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, please reassess after changes to the article after AFD nomination.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:40, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.