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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2a00:a040:19f:93ee:187c:f513:aab3:48da (talk) at 11:36, 17 September 2021 (→Update on Israeli Casusalties: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Ideas for further work

Background section is really long and to detailed. I think some of it could be cut out, like "In January 2018, it was reported that 97% of the territory's tap water was undrinkable" or summarized in some way. Most of the stuff from the timeline should be moved to List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2018, except for the demonstrations on Fridays because they were significantly larger than other weekdays. More information is needed on the flotilla demonstrations which appear to have been held once per week on Mondays. A lot of information about Ahmed Abu Ratima and the original organization of the protests are missing. Like, how did he start it? Also the article needs an External links section, imo. Then the references has to be checked because I have moved paragraphs around so it is possible they have been confused. ImTheIP (talk) 23:03, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Citation for " United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission" in the preamble before the contents: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=24226&LangID=E or the report that it refers to. ArthurDent006.5 (talk) 08:39, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pointless "Ration" column

What's the rationale for / added value of this useless "Ratio" column in the "Casualties" section? No other Wikipedia article contains anything like it. It's not even in the source. -- 95.90.221.236 (talk) 19:43, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 16:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

2018–19 Gaza border protests → Great March of Return – Per commonname. I didn’t propose this previously, as it wasn’t clear if the official name would stick. As we move into 2020, it’s now clear that the “Great March of Return” title is by far the most common name in use by WP:RS. It also hits all five requirements of WP:TITLE: Recognizability is clear (the name is widely known); Naturalness (i.e. commonname, plus it is the official name); Precision (there is no other similar); Conciseness (much shorter); Consistency (per Category:Protest marches). Onceinawhile (talk) 00:27, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to this suggestion. It is not only the most common term, but also the official word used by its organizers, as noted above.Nishidani (talk) 10:09, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, this would be a POV title giving preference to one side's narrative over the other. Just like 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict is not titled Operation Protective Edge. A mention in the lead and redirect - sure, but not as title of the article. “WarKosign” 17:53, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You mean it is POV pushing to call any movement by the name those who participate in it act under? That is your premise, contrary to usage.Salt March was Gandhi's term not that of the occupying power who considered it a form of insurrection,Boston Tea Party was not considered thus by the British authorities but by those who conducted it, idem for The World Is Bardo,Great Peace March for Global Nuclear Disarmament,Bataan Death March (the victims' description, never used by the Japanese organizing it).Nishidani (talk) 20:52, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, I mean that using a less-popular name with clear political implications given by one side of the conflict over a neutral and more popular name given by the media is POV pushing. Googling "gaza border protests" yielded over 6 million results for me, while "great march of return" yielded less than half a million. “WarKosign” 21:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Did you use inverted commas to fix the exact phrase? I get 164,000 for "gaza border protests" vs 438,000 for "great march of return", so approximately 2.5x more popular. And that’s not even adjusting for the hundreds of other smaller “gaza border protests” that have taken place since the blockade began. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I used quotation marks to search for exact phrases. Now I'm getting results similar to what you're reporting. I'll retry on the same computer as before later today, I wonder if the computer matters or I messed something up.
It seems that many of the sources that do use "Great March of Return" use the name in quotation marks. It makes it far less objectionable. “WarKosign” 14:58, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose the proposed move. The proposed title is non-NPOV and is the common name by one side of the conflict only. It would be equally non-NPOV for an editor, for example, to propose the article be moved to "2018-19 Gaza border terror". The current title is the most neutral. Furthermore, the proposed name change would imply that Wikipedia has a particular position on the so-called Palestinian right of return which remains a controversial issue. Île flottante (talk) 16:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, POV name.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:25, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I too am neutral on outcomes as long as the result here is mirrored in our general I/P namings. Consistency must be the norm. As Onceinawhile notes, there are many Israeli official terms] given to events in which two parties are in conflict. Editors involved in these discussions must show cogency in their logic. One cannot accept the Israeli IDF operation names and protest against the official Palestinian name, as has Île flottante in opposing the official Palestinian name here while supporting the official (and to many, offensive) official Israeli euphemisms in Operation Autumn Clouds, Operation Days of Penitence,Operation Hot Winter,Operation Pillar of Defense and Operation Rainbow. Nishidani (talk) 19:25, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What's the point in the ratio column?

Nishidani your revert restored the ratio column. Would you care to explain what is it good for? The first row says there are 183 fatalities in Gaza and 0 in Israel, then it goes on to say that the ratio is 183:0. It's not even WP:CALC, it's just repetition of the data readily visible a tiny bit to the left. How is it not redundant? “WarKosign” 21:28, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I join the question.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:33, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I assume that Nishidani agreed, since they self-reverted. “WarKosign” 16:51, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Extended Confirmed-Protected edit request on 30 December 2019

Casualties and Losses listed in info box appear inaccurate. On the right side, presumably representing 'Israel,' it lists '5 civilians.' The listed citations 8 and 9 refer to injuries that occurred on a Tuesday, and Saturday Evening, respectively. Neither citation gives any clear linkage to the weekly Great March of Return protests which the this Wiki page itself informs us happen on Fridays. These two citations, and the '5 civilians' that go with it thus seem to have no direct link to the Great March of Return and are more related to the greater Gaza-Israel conflict. This section should report "0 civilians." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorniva (talk • contribs) 12:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done The article pertains to a variety of activities which occur at the same time as the so-called march of return. These activities include Palestinian acts of terror such as the firing of weapons targeting innocent Israeli civilians across the border. The innocent Israeli civilians and soldiers having been injured as a result of these acts of terror, editors have correctly included these victims in the list. Île flottante (talk) 01:29, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Extended Confirmed-Protected edit request on 01 January 2020

Casualties and Losses listed in info box appear inaccurate.

As this article pertains to a variety of activities which occur at the same time as the Great March of Return it should have the following edit:

Add the 391 injuries from scooter accidents reported between January and September of 2019 ( https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Electric-scooter-injuries-soared-on-Israels-roads-in-2019-608113 ). It should also include the 58 Israelis injured in defensive responses in the 2nd week of November 2019 ( https://www.jweekly.com/2019/11/14/34-palestinians-killed-58-israelis-injured-in-rocket-attacks-this-week/ ), 3 injured in defensive responses in the first week of May 2019 ( https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/2-seriously-injured-1-moderately-in-rocket-attack-on-ashkelon-factory/ ), 7 injured in defensive responses in the final week of March 2019 ( https://www.gaza48.com/2019/03/25/7-israelis-injured-in-rocket-attack-on-house-north-of-tel-avivin-response-to-the-bombing-of-sites-of-resistance-in-gaza/ ), 6 injured in defensive responses in the last week of May 2019 ( https://ajn.timesofisrael.com/israelis-injured-in-rocket-attack-from-gaza/ ). Importantly it should include the fact that 349 Israelis were killed in traffic accidents in 2019 ( https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/273848 )

The column for what presumably represents Israel in the info box should read: 470 injured, 349 or 350 killed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorniva (talk • contribs) 13:41, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done This is clearly a joke, albeit not a funny one. Road traffic accidents have nothing to do with the conflict. Île flottante (talk) 15:00, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do an easy infobox edit for me please

Hi, I do't have 500 edits yet and don't really know how to work with infoboxes, but the casualties section at the bottom of the infobox seems to be improperly/lazily formatted as it doesn't specify which side suffered which casualties, SOMEONE PLEASE FIX Gromte (talk) 12:26, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gromte: To this effect, I did find it weird that casualties of 'two sides' are stated without specification of the 'sides' to the civil conflict. I have re-added the belligerents, or 'sides', to the civil conflict that were removed in this edit by Nishidani. Although this isn't a war, it is a civil conflict between Gazans and Israeli government. comrade waddie96 (talk) 12:14, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lede change

I just excised a paragraph from the lede that was added by Enthusiast01 in 2019. [1] The violent/non-violent nature of the protests are already elaborated on in the third paragraph. No need to dupliate it. ImTheIP (talk) 15:23, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead too long

The lead exceeds the recommended length for article leads by two paragraphs. Nishidani, you criticized my attempt to cut down the lead as removing "duly researched" content. That content should also be in the body of the article, so I am not by any stretch "removing" it from the article. I am removing it from the "lead" because the lead must serve as a concise summary of what is already in the article body. If it isn't, that's another sign that the lead isn't properly written. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:46, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You also made what the sources say were largely peaceful protests in to something else by first emphasizing violence and then downplaying the non-violent marches to many other protestors where the sources say the vast majority. This game of making drastic POV changes to the leads of articles without apparently even reviewing the articles or sources is getting old. nableezy - 17:49, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What occurred was stricken with violence, "mostly peaceful" is not what the body of sources say. See NYT. They might describe a single day or instance as "mostly peaceful" but most of the attention is paid to the violence that took place. Removing or re-writing the portions that gloss over that is not a "game" or "drastic POV." Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:02, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tell me again how you arent editing with a POV slant that disregards the sources. Just havent had a good fiction book to read in a while. nableezy - 18:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(a)When one removes large amounts of properly sourced material from any section of an article, one should not excise, and leave it to others to restore here or there. One should roll up one's sleeves and relocate the material oneself. Excision is fraught with possibilities of POV suppression of disliked facts.
(b) As to 'stricken with violence', whose violence are you referring to. The lead can be simplified by giving the data for the first week, and then the final summing up of how many people were shot dead by soldiers sniping at a comfortable distance behind a wirefence and an embankment. Those details are available here,Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018; most were victims of a reckless open-fire policy B'tselem 17 January 2019

In 2018 (during the Great March, Nishidani) As a result of this open-fire policy, 190 demonstrators have been killed – 65% of all Palestinians killed by Israeli forces this year. These include a woman and 34 minors, three of whom were 11-years-old and one 4-year-old.Most of them were unarmed and posed no danger to anyone.

Always rely on the good ol' New York Times to think shooting fish in a barrel is negligible compared to the frantic swimming of the violent targets. B'tselem's summary data for 2018 can substitute for the excess material, if we include also the data for those wounded/crippled by the same relentless sniping, the figure runs into thousands by year's end.Nishidani (talk) 18:20, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Quite.Wikieditor, might I suggest you broaden your reading material you will not get a very good overview of things if you only read the Gray Lady, particularly in the IP area.Selfstudier (talk) 18:18, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 May 2021

Hello,

The final line in the intro to this article presents a claim without a citation:

After searching for the citation, I found this UNHCR report: https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/A.HRC_.40.CPR_.2.pdf

I could not find reference in the report to the claim of 489 injuries with 2 legal uses of forces. Nonetheless, on pages 104-107, it is mentioned that of the 183 total fatalities, the overwhelming majority were civilians, and while 29 fatalities had former or current military affiliation, there is no evidence that these individuals were attending in any military capacity or in any contradiction to the stated aims of the protests as peaceful (please see point 410 on p. 107 for this latter claim).

The report is an official UNHCR report, so I see no reason for this not to be updated accordingly.

Thank you Spellchecker1776 (talk) 01:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: MOS:LEADCITE - verified in the section "Investigations". Elli (talk | contribs) 04:52, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Update on Israeli Casusalties

There is one more IDF soldier killed, see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Barel_Hadaria_Shmueli 2A00:A040:19F:93EE:187C:F513:AAB3:48DA (talk) 11:36, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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