Talk:Java/Archive 2
Requested move 12 June 2018
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: there is clearly consensus not to move the pages as set out in the proposal, which still appears to entail switching the primary topics. There may be cause to discuss moving Java (disambiguation) to Java as suggested by the later edit to the request, but in that case it is clear that discussion will need to start over in order to reach any sort of consensus to move. Closing without prejudice against a subsequent request of that type. However, please note that in the current discussion there have already been some objections to moving the disambiguation page. Dekimasuよ! 12:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
– not WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in light of the popularity of the Java (programming language) Prisencolin (talk) 21:35, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
- Edit: The proposal will make Java (this current page title) as a DAB page.--Prisencolin (talk) 05:24, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
- Support - Java (programming language). has received way more pageviews than Java. "Java language" has also surpassed "island of Java" in Google Ngrams... in 1994. Google Trends tells a similar story.
<RetroCraft314 />00:38, 13 June 2018 (UTC) - Oppose what is proposed. But I can *weakly support* making Java the disambiguation page for compromise, that's far better than what's proposed. It will contain all the pages and serve them one-click away to reader. The island clearly has historical and natural vantage of claiming the base name. Note that Java programming language got the name from the island through Java →West Java→Java Coffee →Java (prog. lang). –Ammarpad (talk) 03:05, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
- Comment. I can tell you that Wikipedians just don't it this way. People's heads will explode before anything like this is allowed. You must specify where the lemma "Java" will point to at the end of the move. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 05:24, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - this has been debated so many times before, this must have been the cycle when this starts up again. Popularity of a subject from a particular demographic does not make a subject an obvious choice. The coffee, the island all have precedence; in that the programming language is for those who are focused upon it, is fine - they can have their attitude and views and hits and things - the island came first, and should if we believe the precedence of the weird and wonderful primacy edit wars of years ago, it should sustain the position. If however this proposal goes for the unwelcome decision of changing - then I go with ammarpad, and say this becomes a disambuiguation, under duress and annoyance that the previous many attempts to play this havent been sufficient to make this a redundant proposal. JarrahTree 05:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose At least with the current arrangement, some proportion of the searching public get the page they want when they arrive here. With a disambiguation page here, no one will. It would be rude and boorish to place the programming language above the country it is named after and put that here. I think the present arrangement is as good as we're going to get, with simple hat-notes doing all the work, simply and directly. --Nigelj (talk) 08:06, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose. How can the world's most populous (over 140 million) island not be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? It boggles the mind. Everything else is named after the island. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Island of 141 million, in a country of 261 million people, Java was also at the centre of the largest natural disaster in modern times. Yes every time a new piece of software comes out the google hit rate on java will increases a 100 fold because of advertising that doesnt raise the importance of the programming language to being the primary topic. The level of disruption the move would cause is significant and even afterwards the amount of on going maintenance just to keep Java disambiguated would be equally time consuming and disruptive. WP:COMMONSENSE Our goal is to improve Wikipedia so that it better informs readers this move would not do that Gnangarra 09:21, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 16 June 2018
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: clear consensus not to move the pages as proposed at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 21:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
– I opened this move request since the recent move request suggest that the current title should be about the programming language while, on the other hand, this move suggest that the current title should be disambiguation page. Although the editor that made the recent move request edited it later, he/she doesn't change the notice in the mainspace so maybe not many editor join in the discussion.
Arguments in favor of the proposed move
The programming language has more daily average pageviews than the island
Based on the pageview from July 2015–present the programming language has about 4,900 daily average pageviews while the island is 1,700.
Arguments against the proposed move (with counter arguments)
"Java" should be about the island with population more that 140 million people
Population cannot determine whether an article has a primary topic (the article is about programming language or island) or not at all (the article is disambiguation). For example Georgia (country) (with 3.7 million population) has more daily average pageview than Georgia (U.S. state) (10 million population).
The programming language is named after the island
Based on this logic then Mercury should be about the Roman god (which is not since the planet and the chemical element are named after the Roman god).
Title choice for the island article
Retains the island's common name per WP:COMMONNAME and consistency with Hawaii (island), Newfoundland (island), Malta (island), and many others. Hddty. (talk) 08:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. Hawaii, Newfoundland, Malta are still WP:PRIMARYTOPICs, with the islands in question included within the political entity with the same name as the island. To gain a wider perspective, it would be sufficient to glance at List of islands by population. Every single one, far down the list, is a primary topic and Java is number one. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:24, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Actually whether "Java" has primary topic or not has nothing to do with List of islands by population. --Hddty. (talk) 10:00, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per Wikipedia:Systemic bias this the result of a focusing on a US/EU centric view. Additionally if you take out the period where Oracle & Google were in court the differences drop significantly, the spikes in Java page views are more significant than the programming language. Nothing in this argument addresses any reason(beyond enabling bias) to cause significant ongoing disruption that such a move will do. Gnangarra 09:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- The programming language has 4,900 average daily pageviews and the island 1,700 when counted after Oracle v. Google, even before that the programming language still has more pageview. I'm an Indonesian and I'm fine with this move since the term Java is ambiguous—the programming language has more daily average pageviews but there are 140 millions people that lives there so this article better be disambiguation and the primary topic here is not as obvious as between Birmingham, Alabama and Birmingham so this page better should be disambiguation. --Hddty. (talk) 15:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Where you're from is irrelevant to the discussion, the issue is two fold one is that it introduces a systemic bias to US/EU perspective, the second is the shear volume of disruption it will cause and the on going maintenance issues with putting the island at a disambiguation, the only good side of this proposal is that it doesnt introduce additional disruption to the programming language related articles all of this is covered in Wikipedia:Recentism. Gnangarra 03:24, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- The programming language has 4,900 average daily pageviews and the island 1,700 when counted after Oracle v. Google, even before that the programming language still has more pageview. I'm an Indonesian and I'm fine with this move since the term Java is ambiguous—the programming language has more daily average pageviews but there are 140 millions people that lives there so this article better be disambiguation and the primary topic here is not as obvious as between Birmingham, Alabama and Birmingham so this page better should be disambiguation. --Hddty. (talk) 15:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose, mostly because I see no need to move it. VibeScepter (talk) (contributions) 11:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose, sorry but I think the Java island is still very important, maybe it's because my regional geographic context, however, I think the above arguments are still not convincing to me. --Liang (WMTW) (talk) 12:42, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose as in previous move arguments, where I have stated very clearly the issues that bedevil any attempt to move. JarrahTree 13:00, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose, per WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:COMMONNAME. The island is the origin of other derivative names. Plus this most populated island IS important, especially for its native inhabitant like me (sorry this is personal). For a non programmer common computer/internet user, I do not familiar with, do not care, nor use the Java programming language. Plus I do not call coffee as Java, since my coffee is most likely came from Sumatra instead. This redundant attempt on moving/renaming proposal is actually a bias. The island is more tangible than a computer program. Supposed there is a global war, nuclear armageddon, global catastrophe or deadly pandemic that wiped up most of humanity; the internet crash and the computer technology are unusable or forgotten. Java island still will be here, while the Java programming might be lost or unknown. Gunkarta talk 15:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- I understand that the island should be the primary topic because of the number of its population in respect of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC but Java (programming language) has more pageview, even when the unusual high pageviews because Oracle America, Inc. v. Google, Inc. ignored. Make the programming language the primary topic would be worse so I think that better this page become a disambiguation, while still retains the island and the programming language in the lead like Georgia and New York. --Hddty. (talk) 16:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- No.., still did not convince me to move Java to Java (island). I think current arrangements on Java island as a main article is correct, no need to change. And on top of it we already provides linking/referring to Java (disambiguation) page for reader who wish to access other Java derivatives entity (programming, coffee, other places named after Java etc.). Pageviews counts might change in the future and not a solid arguments for this matter. Gunkarta talk 03:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- I understand that the island should be the primary topic because of the number of its population in respect of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC but Java (programming language) has more pageview, even when the unusual high pageviews because Oracle America, Inc. v. Google, Inc. ignored. Make the programming language the primary topic would be worse so I think that better this page become a disambiguation, while still retains the island and the programming language in the lead like Georgia and New York. --Hddty. (talk) 16:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. Please, get up from your couch, change from your pyjamas, and go outside into the real world. — AjaxSmack 15:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose, this is the classic case of Apple and Apple Inc.. Current popularity is not the only thing that's important. Apples and the island of Java have been notable for a long time, will remain notable for a very long time and are mostly equally notable around the world (with the exception of Indonesia). Apple Inc. and the Java programming langauge, meanwhile, have no guarantees of enduring notability and are not equally notable in many of the world's regions. Consider these things on top of the other arguments already presented. Prinsgezinde (talk) 18:08, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- "Apple" should about the fruit because every kids in the world most probably hear or know "Apple" is a fruit since it's the basic teaching of English language, readers that expected to see Apple Inc. should not be confused to see "Apple" in Wikipedia search suggestion; in the same case readers may have confusion in a split second. --Hddty. (talk) 00:38, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Java as a programming language is only known to few software geeks or in jargon of those who care to know and it's usage may diminish significantly in near future with proliferation of newer technologies while the island retains the enduring historical vantage of having the name before anything else. The hatnote in the article is sufficient. –Ammarpad (talk) 04:48, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Java will still be there long after memories of the 90s programming language have vanished. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:08, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per all the above. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:52, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose – the island was way more historical significance than the programming language. CookieMonster755✉ 01:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. Oh, come on. A move like this really would lend weight to the argument that Wikipedia is biased in favour of computer nerds. The island's long-term significance is far greater than any other meaning of the word. To most people the island is the primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.