Talk:Non-binary/Archive 8

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List of typical features that make someone identify as non-binary

As per title: can you add some examples of features that make people identify as non-binary?

In the article it reads that non-binary mixes features from both sexes, but it doesn't describe or provide examples of what those are.

Thank you Cmwoodie (talk) 04:54, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Just gonna jump in here to say that perhaps "experiences of non-binary identities" would likely be a better title; it may not have been your intention, but it needs to be made clear that the only thing that really makes someone non-binary is, uh, identifying as non-binary. There are some shared experiences, but these don't constitute the identity, and nor does a set preference for one's personal presentation, clothing or pronouns. (I'd also argue that "mixing features from both sexes" isn't even quite to the point - as someone who's non-binary myself, I'd say my identity mixes male features with agender ones. Not a smidgen of female in there, in my experience.)

And this may just be my exposure to it, but "typical features that make someone non-binary" sounds just way too familiar to the kind of "I'm properly transgender Unlike Yourself" separatist garbage I've seen a worrying uptick in throughout these past few years.

Of course, it would be valid to discuss that itself, but typical features is a section I feel would fall apart at the slightest touch, y'know? Apologies if this sounds like rambling garbage - I wanted to drop my two cents in. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:46, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@Cmwoodie:, I don't see anywhere in the article where it describes non-binary as a "mixing features from both sexes". Good thing, too, because that wouldn't be accurate. From a scientific viewpoint, no one knows why someone identifies as non-binary. As far as "features": as it's something internal, there isn't anything that "makes" you non-binary, other than your say-so. You might be thinking of gender expression, and imagining you could extrapolate from someone's expression and guess that they might be non-binary, but that would be just a guess. You can't use someone's expression as a "feature" to label them non-binary; it just doesn't work that way. Also agree with Ineffablebookkeeper's reply to you.

@Ineffablebookkeeper: Regardless whether you consider something completely subjective or not, that's not how we decide how to title an article; that comes from article title policy. Per WP:PRECISE, "experiences of..." is no more needed here as part of the title, than "experiences of womanhood" would be needed instead of the title "Woman". (It's not a perfect analogy, as "woman" predates any notions of gender identity as apart from sex, but I assume you can see my point.) If you want to propose a different title, then see WP:MOVE and follow the procedures listed at WP:RM#CM. Just be aware that this page has had numerous contested moves, the last of which resulted in a move, and imho is very unlikely to be renamed again any time soon. Mathglot (talk) 03:35, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Mathglot - I think you might have misread? My understanding was that "what makes someone non-binary" was being suggested as a section header for within the article, rather than the title itself, hence my suggestion. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 05:43, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Ineffablebookkeeper, Aha; I may well have. I was going by your: "..would likely be a better title" wording. If you meant, "section header", then you can forget what I said regarding article titles. As a section header, it isn't clear to me what it means, and I wouldn't know what I would expect to read in a section by that name. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 05:50, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more: "the only thing that really makes someone non-binary is, uh, identifying as non-binary". So: no typical features. :-) Laurier (talk) 12:42, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

This is impossible since there is no "objective" definition, experience, or basis for non-binary gender or people. It's people saying they are. There is no evidence to suggest what non-binary people "feel" within themselves is anything different from what people normally considered cisgendered "feel", and scientific research into how human brains function show that most examined brains exist between the two extremes of male and female, meaning non-binary brains are the majority. This article discusses a topic which has no other basis than people saying "I'm going to say I am." Which is their right, of course, but it is a topic without any definition or basis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.61.177.230 (talk) 07:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Stop deleting opinions which agree with your definition 100% but happen to disagree with your value system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.61.177.230 (talk) 10:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2020

The page erroneous states that I "claim" to have coined genderqueer. In fact, this didn't originate with me but was documented by Wiktionary and was pointed out to me (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/genderqueer "First known appearance in print was in 1995 in a newsletter by Riki Wilchins.[1]") I don't believe I have echoed this claim in print or publicly. Historian Transgender Susan Styker had told me that the term predates me, but I have never been able to locate that reference.

Please change "Riki Anne Wilchins is often associated with the word and claims to have coined it" to "According to Wikstionary, Riki Wilchins is credited with the first use of 'genderqueer' in print."

Otherwise I sound like Dr Evil's father, going around claiming to have invented the question mark "-}

Thank you. -- Riki Rikiwilchins (talk) 11:56, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Why did you write that you coined it in this article? ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 12:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

And also, [here]! Laurier (talk) 08:03, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Gender Census Survey graph - does it reflect the survey accurately? Are all respondents non-binary?

The article currently includes a graph stating that 77.5% of non-binary individuals prefer to be referred to by the singular they pronoun, but having look at the survey, I'm not entirely sure if this is a fully accurate description of what the survey said. It is true that the survey is primarily aimed at quote "people whose genders are not adequately described, expressed or encompassed by the restrictive gender binary" but it also takes careful consideration to not refer to all of its respondents as non-binary.

This survey also included respondents who do not self-describe as non-binary. Respondents also included binary trans people, gender nonconforming people (an umbrella term which can include cisgendered people who may be feminine men and masculine women), people who are currently questioning their gender and do not know how they identify, etc. In fact, a third of respondents did not self-describe as non-binary.

Is it appropriate then for the graph and article to suggest that all of the respondents were non-binary? 77.5% of respondents did indicate that they/them is their preferred pronoun, but is it accurate to state that 77.5% of non-binary people indicated that when one in three respondents did not describe themselves as non-binary?

I'm asking this on the talk page because I don't know the answer to these questions and I'm interested in what other editors think. Does the raw data of the survey make it possible to find out what percent of self-described non-binary people prefer they/them? If not, should the entire pronouns and titles sub-section be rewritten to instead cite secondary sources which mention that many non-binary individuals prefer to be referred to by they/them (rather than trying to find an exact number?)  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:05, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Looking closely at it, the article doesn't specifically say that exact percentage of nonbinary people use they/them (any survey has statistical error anyway). The general proportions that it states/implies does accord with what the source itself states, though: Is there a pronoun that every nonbinary person is happy with? – No. The closest we have to a standard is singular they, and it’s important for journalists and anyone else with a style guide to allow it. Steadily over the last few years about 1 in 5 are not into singular they, and 9% of us don’t like he, she or they pronouns. The source treats the data basically as the article does. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:52, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

The current wording of the article is appropriate, but the title and subcaption of the graph are, at least in my opinion, not currently accurate. It uses the same statistics as the survey, but titles and captions it as a graph showing the most popular pronouns among non-binary people, when the survey isn't necessarily of non-binary people. Personally, I think the best course of action would be to keep the text (and hopefully expand it with more sources about the usage of the singular they by non-binary people) but remove the graph on the right. Of course, we can still cite the survey (at least for now, it is user-generated content but it's currently the best we have).  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:36, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

The quote I gave treats the graph data as applying to nonbinary people as a group, including specific percentages, as does our picture caption. So if the source treats it that way, so can we. I think the graph is worth keeping. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:07, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Adding historical cultural recognition of non-binary genders under “History”

We could include a short summary of historical (and in some cases current) non-binary identities such as Hijra, ancient Egypt’s understanding of three genders, and the various Two-Spirit genders. Aryore (talk) 05:35, 8 February 2021 (UTC)