Talk:Shebakia

disputed

we cannot show disputed information as if they were facts. the article shows that it originated in Morocco, saying that it's from the Ottoman culture only confuse readers. some say it came with the moors https://patisseriegato.ma/5-must-know-things-about-chebakia/?lang=en, other relate it with ancient Roman honey cookies https://afrogistmedia.com/chebakia-recipe-tasty-moroccan-sesame-cookies

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.55.242.255 (talk) 03:28, 6 June 2022 (UTC) 

Hello, the information is not disputed it is correctly sourced and the links that you have provided are not reliable sources. Please refrain from removing correctly sourced information as it is disruptive editing.

Thanks, Kabz15 (talk) 14:49, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2025

Change "Chebekia is from the Ottoman deserts culture" since the source for that does not prove this and it is a claim with no evidence that causes misleading conclusions. Morocco was after all not part of the Ottoman empire, and the sentence makes it look like Chebekia originates from the Ottoman empire.

}} 2001:1C02:2107:2800:4A53:C446:9EDF:A0F7 (talk) 17:39, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: You disrupted the article enough, to the point where it had to be protected. I suggest you give it a rest. M.Bitton (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

Infobox "Place of origin" and Ottoman claim are misleading — proposal to correct with sources

This LLM-generated text has been collapsed and should be excluded from assessments of consensus. — Newslinger talk 20:08, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Should the infobox "Place of origin" field be changed from "Ottoman Empire" to "Morocco / Maghreb", and should the sentence "Chebakia is from the Ottoman desserts culture" be removed from the lead? The sole cited source (Oktay & Sadıkoğlu 2018) calls Chebakia "a Moroccan sesame cookie" in the same paragraph, contradicting its own closing remark which Wikipedia selectively quotes. Morocco was never part of the Ottoman Empire. See full discussion and source analysis below.

I am opening this discussion to raise a sourced, good-faith concern about two specific issues in this article that are misleading as currently written, and to propose concrete corrections.

Issue 1: Infobox "Place of origin: Ottoman Empire"

The infobox currently lists the Place of origin as the Ottoman Empire. This is problematic for a straightforward geographical reason: Morocco was never part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire's westernmost reach stopped at modern-day Algeria and Libya — Morocco maintained full independence under the Saadian and later Alaouite dynasties throughout the Ottoman period. Attributing the origin of a pastry iconic to Moroccan cuisine to the Ottoman Empire is therefore geographically and historically inaccurate as a "place of origin" label.

The article's own History section acknowledges the origin is complex, noting similarities to Eastern pastries and referencing a Moroccan folk origin story. The article also categorizes Shebakia under Moroccan cuisine, Algerian cuisine, and Arab cuisine — none of which is the Ottoman Empire. The infobox should reflect this complexity rather than making a blunt attribution that contradicts the article's own text and categories.

Proposed change: Replace "Ottoman Empire" in the infobox with Morocco / Maghreb, which is consistent with the article's categorization, the overwhelming cultural association of this pastry, and the sources listed below.

Issue 2: The sentence "Chebakia is from the Ottoman desserts culture"

The article states in the lead: "Chebakia is from the Ottoman desserts culture." The cited source for this claim is: Oktay, S. and Sadıkoglu, S., 2018, Journal of Ethnic Foods, p.6. However:

• This single line of text — presented as a standalone declarative fact — goes far beyond what the cited source can support for a pastry with multi-century roots in Morocco.
• The article's own History section presents a more nuanced picture: the origin is "likely Ottoman, due to its similarity to Eastern pastries," but also includes a well-known Moroccan folk origin story and references Andalusian influence (via the Moorish communities expelled from Spain). This context makes "Chebakia is from the Ottoman desserts culture" an oversimplification that misleads readers into thinking the pastry was imported from Ottoman territory into Morocco, which is not supported.
• Morocco was not an Ottoman territory. Framing the pastry's culture as "Ottoman" erases centuries of Moroccan culinary development and regional adaptation, which is well-documented.

Proposed change: Remove or rephrase this sentence to something like: "The origin of chebakia has been linked by some scholars to similarities with Eastern pastries from former Ottoman regions; however, the pastry has been an integral part of Moroccan culinary tradition for centuries, particularly during Ramadan." This is accurate, nuanced, and consistent with the sources.

Supporting sources

The following sources document Chebakia as a Moroccan pastry and support the proposed corrections:

1. Sheen, Barbara (2011). Foods of Morocco. Farmington Hills, MI: Greenhaven Publishing LLC. p. 44. ISBN 978-0-7377-5865-8. — Already cited in this article (refs 7 & 8). Treats Chebakia as a traditional Moroccan pastry without qualification.
2. Benkabbou, Nargisse (2018). Casablanca: My Moroccan Food. Octopus. ISBN 9781784725105. — Already cited in this article (ref. 11). A respected Moroccan food author who includes Chebakia firmly within Moroccan cuisine.
3. Lonely Planet's Ultimate Eats (2018). ISBN 978-1-78701-977-5. — Already cited in this article (ref. 9). Lists Chebakia in a Moroccan culinary context.
4. Patisserie Gato (patisseriegato.ma): "5 Must-Know Things About Moroccan Chebakia" — Describes Chebakia as "a Moroccan tradition" that evolved through Andalusian (Moorish) and other cultural influences over centuries. Explicitly notes the diversity of names across Moroccan regions, demonstrating deep-rooted local tradition.
5. The article's own Arabic-language sources (refs 12, 13, 14) — These sources describe the pastry's origins as a blend of Eastern/Andalusian influences that evolved into a distinctly Moroccan tradition; they do not characterize it as an Ottoman product.
6. Benayoun, Mike (1 Jul 2016). "Griouech". 196 flavors — Already cited in this article (ref. 2). Documents the pastry in the context of Moroccan and Algerian cuisine.

Summary of proposed edits

Location	Current text	Proposed text	Rationale
Infobox → Place of origin	Ottoman Empire	Morocco / Maghreb	Morocco was never part of the Ottoman Empire; the pastry is culturally and culinarily rooted in Morocco/Maghreb, as confirmed by multiple cited sources and the article's own categories.
Lead paragraph	"Chebakia is from the Ottoman desserts culture."	Remove or rephrase to note scholarly debate about Eastern similarities while acknowledging its centuries-long Moroccan identity.	The current sentence is an unsupported oversimplification that contradicts the nuanced History section. The sole cited source (Oktay & Sadıkoglu, 2018) does not justify this as a standalone declarative fact.

I welcome discussion. I am not proposing to remove the historical context about similarities to Eastern pastries — that belongs in the History section and is appropriately sourced. I am proposing that the infobox and the lead reflect the well-documented reality that this is a Moroccan/Maghrebi pastry, not an Ottoman one. Bohosquare1 (talk) 06:41, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

Follow-up: The cited source (Oktay & Sadıkoğlu, 2018) directly contradicts how Wikipedia uses it — and calls Chebakia "a Moroccan sesame cookie"

Since posting the above, I have located and read the full text of the cited paper: Oktay S, Sadıkoğlu S. "The gastronomic cultures' impact on the African cuisine." Journal of Ethnic Foods xx (2018) 1–7. DOI: 10.1016/j.jef.2018.02.005. Available at: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321825188

The findings are decisive and significantly strengthen the case for correction.

== Finding 1: The paper explicitly calls Chebakia "a Moroccan sesame cookie" ==

In the very same section of the paper (the Morocco subsection, p.6) that Wikipedia cites for the "Ottoman desserts culture" claim, the authors write verbatim:

"Another famous and traditional type of dessert is Chebakia dessert which is a Moroccan sesame cookie shaped into a flower, fried, and then coated with honey."

This is the paper's own primary characterization of Chebakia — as a Moroccan product. Several sentences later, as a brief closing remark, the authors add:

"The dessert varieties chebakia and m'hanncha are from Ottoman desserts culture."

The Wikipedia article has ignored the first, explicit characterization ("a Moroccan sesame cookie") and elevated the brief closing remark into a standalone declarative statement in the lead. This is a clear violation of WP:NPOV and WP:SYNTHESIS — the source is being selectively quoted to support a conclusion the source itself does not consistently make.

== Finding 2: The paper is not a specialist source on Chebakia's history ==

The paper's title is "The Gastronomic Cultures' Impact on the African Cuisine." It surveys four African countries (Zimbabwe, Nigeria, South Africa, and Morocco) in approximately seven pages total. The Morocco section is a few paragraphs long and covers the entire Moroccan culinary tradition. This is not a specialist historical or culinary anthropology study of Chebakia — it is a broad tourism and hospitality management overview.

Both authors (Serdar Oktay and Saide Sadıkoğlu) are affiliated with the School of Tourism & Hotel Management, Near East University, Nicosia, Cyprus. Neither author has published specialist research on Moroccan food history. Under WP:RS, a passing remark in a broad tourism management paper is not a sufficient basis for a definitive "Place of origin" claim in an infobox, especially when it conflicts with multiple other cited sources.

== Finding 3: The paper was published "Article in Press" — not fully peer-reviewed at time of citation ==

The PDF available on ResearchGate carries the header ARTICLE IN PRESS, with page numbers listed as "Journal of Ethnic Foods xx (2018) 1–7" — the "xx" indicating volume/issue numbers were not yet assigned. This raises a concern about whether the paper had completed full peer review at the time the citation was added to this article.

== Finding 4: The broader framing of the paper undermines the infobox claim ==

Earlier in the same Morocco section, the paper states:

"Throughout history, the Moroccans have been under the rule of the Romans, the Spanish, the Ottomans, and the French, and they have transferred the culinary traditions and cultures of these civilizations to their own kitchens."

This framing — that Morocco absorbed external culinary influences into its own kitchen — directly contradicts using this paper to label Chebakia's place of origin as the Ottoman Empire. The paper's own logic is that these influences were adopted and transformed by Moroccan culture, not that Moroccan dishes originated in the Ottoman Empire.

== Summary ==

The sole citation used to support both the infobox field ("Place of origin: Ottoman Empire") and the lead sentence ("Chebakia is from the Ottoman desserts culture"):

1. Calls Chebakia a Moroccan sesame cookie in its primary description
2. Is a broad tourism management paper, not a specialist source on Moroccan food history
3. Was published "in press" and may not have completed full peer review
4. Frames Ottoman influence as something Morocco absorbed — not as a place of origin

This constitutes citation misuse under WP:CITE and selective quotation under WP:NPOV. I am formally requesting that editors review the source in full before the current wording is defended further. The source does not support the claim as presented.

I am also notifying the relevant noticeboards (WP:NPOVN and WP:RSN) of this discussion, as the issue has persisted without resolution across multiple good-faith edit attempts.

Bohosquare1 (talk) 07:16, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

Hi Bohosquare1, I have collapsed your comment here per WP:AITALK, as it was clearly generated by a large language model (i.e. an AI chatbot). Additionally, I have disabled your request for comment, as the RfC statement (the text between the {{rfc}} tag and your first signature) and is not "neutrally worded and brief", as required by WP:RFCBRIEF. You are free to rephrase your comment in your own words, and to start another request for comment that meets the procedural requirements. — Newslinger talk 20:08, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

Edit request: Correct infobox "Place of origin" and lead sentence per RSN consensus

This LLM-generated text has been collapsed and should be excluded from assessments of consensus. — Newslinger talk 20:07, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

An established editor is requested to make the following two specific changes, which are supported by the cited source itself and have been reviewed at WP:RSN.

Background: The sole cited source for both the infobox "Place of origin: Ottoman Empire" and the lead sentence "Chebakia is from the Ottoman desserts culture" is: Oktay S, Sadıkoğlu S. "The gastronomic cultures' impact on the African cuisine." Journal of Ethnic Foods (2018). DOI: 10.1016/j.jef.2018.02.005. A review was requested at WP:RSN (filed 1 March 2026). Editor Boynamedsue responded with the following assessment: "the article does not state the origin of the Shebakia to be in the Ottoman Empire, but does explicitly state it to be part of the Ottoman dessert tradition. So the infobox should state 'Morocco' but the article can state it is part of the Ottoman dessert tradition, but perhaps with attribution to the authors."

Requested Change 1 — Infobox:

• Current: | origin = Ottoman Empire
• Proposed: | origin = Morocco / Maghreb
• Rationale: The same source (p.6) explicitly calls Chebakia "a Moroccan sesame cookie" in its primary description. The RSN reviewer confirmed the infobox should reflect Morocco. The article's own History section and categories also reflect Moroccan origin.

Requested Change 2 — Lead sentence:

• Current: "Chebakia is from the Ottoman desserts culture."
• Proposed: Remove this sentence from the lead, or rephrase to something like: "Chebakia has been linked by some researchers to the Ottoman dessert tradition, though it has been an integral part of Moroccan culinary culture for centuries."
• Rationale: Per the RSN reviewer's guidance, the article body may note the Ottoman dessert tradition with attribution to the authors. A standalone declarative claim in the lead violates WP:WEIGHT given the source itself calls the pastry "Moroccan."

Full discussion, source analysis, and supporting sources are at Talk:Shebakia#Infobox "Place of origin" and Ottoman claim are misleading — proposal to correct with sources.

Bohosquare1 (talk) Bohosquare1 (talk) 09:41, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

Not done: your request appears to have been generated by a large language model. Hi Bohosquare1, I have collapsed your edit request here per WP:AITALK, as it was clearly generated by a large language model (i.e. an AI chatbot). You are free to rephrase your inquiry in your own words. — Newslinger talk 20:07, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

Requesting correction to infobox place of origin per RSN discussion

I would like to request a change to the infobox field "Place of origin", which currently reads "Ottoman Empire". The sole source cited for this (Oktay and Sadikoğlu 2018, Journal of Ethnic Foods) explicitly describes Chebakia as "a Moroccan sesame cookie" in its primary description. An independent review of this source at WP:RSN by editor Boynamedsue concluded that "the infobox should state 'Morocco'". The article's own categories also list it under Moroccan cuisine. The proposed change is to update the infobox to read "Morocco" or "Morocco / Maghreb". WP:V WP:RS. Bohosquare1 (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: 1) The sole source claism is factually incorrect (what's in the infobox is supported by more than one source). 2) a lot was said at RSN (that I suggest you read). M.Bitton (talk) 22:58, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

Fair enough on point one, I did read the RSN discussion in full including your mention of the second source, which is why I'm following up here. I've now read the Akdi and Achboun paper (AAJSR, Vol. 1, Issue 2, 2023) directly. The "Ottoman" label for Chebakia in that paper appears in a summary table whose source note states it is based on the researcher's own fieldwork, with no historical citation attached to it. The body text of the same paper describes Chebakia as a Tetouanese sweet without any reference to Ottoman origin. The AAJSR journal launched in 2023 and is not indexed in Scopus or Web of Science, so its weight as a sourced origin claim seems limited. I've posted a more detailed note on this at the RSN thread. The core of the issue remains what Boynamedsue assessed after reading Oktay and Sadikoğlu: the source supports "Ottoman dessert tradition" in the article body, but not "place of origin: Ottoman Empire" in the infobox. Morocco was never Ottoman territory and that geographic fact hasn't been addressed in any of the declines so far. I'm not trying to remove the Ottoman tradition reference from the article, only to get the infobox field right. I'll give the RSN discussion a few more days and then re-open the edit request. WP:V WP:WEIGHT Bohosquare1 (talk) 23:51, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

Re-opening this after further discussion at WP:RSN. Since the last decline, four peer-reviewed sources from Wiley, Taylor and Francis, and De Gruyter have been cited at RSN, all treating chebakia as Moroccan without qualification. The primary source (Oktay and Sadikoğlu 2018) was assessed by editor Boynamedsue as supporting "Ottoman dessert tradition" in the body text, not "place of origin: Ottoman Empire" in the infobox. The second source (Akdi and Achboun 2023) attributes the Ottoman label to unsourced fieldwork in a table, not a historical citation. None of the sources cited actually makes the geographic origin claim the infobox asserts. WP:WEIGHT Bohosquare1 (talk) 09:49, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

 Not done as there's an active RFC on the question. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 12:27, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

RfC: Infobox "Place of origin" for Shebakia

Should the infobox "Place of origin" field be changed from "Ottoman Empire" to "Morocco" or "Morocco/Maghreb"? Bohosquare1 (talk) 10:03, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

• Remove infobox, as a pretty useless one. I've never seen one for foods, but nothing in there shouldn't already be in the opening paragraph or two anyway. Infoboxes are good when there's a lot of key data to summarize, like area, population, etc, for places, but not here. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 12:31, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot)No change I'm not sure this article needs an infobox either, but that's not question. Are there reliable sources strong enough to change the origin? If so, they haven't been presented in the limited discussion before this RFC was opened. Nemov (talk) 14:00, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

  The sources you're asking about are documented at the RSN thread that preceded this RfC. Editor Boynamedsue assessed the primary source (Oktay and Sadikoğlu 2018, Journal of Ethnic Foods) and concluded it supports "Ottoman dessert tradition" in the article body but not "Place of origin: Ottoman Empire" in the infobox, because the paper calls Chebakia "a Moroccan sesame cookie" in its primary description. Three peer-reviewed counter-sources from major publishers have also been posted there: Barakat et al. (2020) in Wiley's Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism (DOI: 10.1155/2020/8849832), Grosglik and Levy (2025) in Taylor and Francis's Food and Foodways (DOI: 10.1080/07409710.2025.2440971), and Mansouri et al. (2025) in De Gruyter's Journal of Intelligent Systems (DOI: 10.1515/jisys-2024-0122). All three describe chebakia as Moroccan without qualification. The question on WP:WEIGHT is whether those, alongside the geographic fact that Morocco was never part of the Ottoman Empire, are enough to outweigh two sources that neither explicitly traces the food's origin to Ottoman territory, one of which an experienced editor already assessed as not supporting the infobox claim. Bohosquare1 (talk) 14:49, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

• (Summoned by bot) No change - need evidence for the change. the talk page history is mostly OP spamming this request, using LLMs and generally not doing anything to really suggest why this is a useful change. User:Bluethricecreamman (Talk·Contribs) 15:00, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

  Fair enough to flag the procedural history, but I'd push back a little on the framing. Presenting sources carefully and writing clearly doesn't make someone an LLM. I'm a person who cares about this being accurate and tried hard to do it properly. Some of the earlier posts were messy, I accept that, but the sourcing case that's been built up at RSN since then is real and I think it deserves engagement on the merits rather than a dismissal based on how it was presented.

  The actual question hasn't been addressed in any of the responses here: is "Place of origin: Ottoman Empire" supported by the sources? Editor Boynamedsue read the primary source (Oktay and Sadikoğlu 2018) and concluded it doesn't support that infobox claim, because the paper calls Chebakia "a Moroccan sesame cookie" in the same paragraph. The second source's Ottoman label comes from an unsourced fieldwork table in a 2023 non-indexed journal. Against those two, there are now three peer-reviewed papers from Wiley, Taylor and Francis, and De Gruyter, all treating chebakia as Moroccan. Morocco was never part of the Ottoman Empire. That's the substance of the dispute and it's documented at the RSN thread if you want to take a look. Bohosquare1 (talk) 15:40, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

  Please stop WP:BLUDGEONING. Nemov (talk) 16:11, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

  Fair point. I'll step back and let the RSN thread and the sources do the work. I just wanted to make sure the existing record was visible to anyone arriving via the bot. I won't add more until others have had a chance to weigh in. Bohosquare1 (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2026 (UTC)