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Talk:Twelve-step program

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Scarpy (talk | contribs) at 22:14, 2 September 2020 (slight reorganizing as conversations were related.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.



Anonymity

It is repeated in the article that only first names are used, and this leaves the impressions that it is a violation of some rule (or tradition) if someone uses their full name in a meeting. Based on my experience, this is not the case. The tradition states that we must maintain anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films. In the "P47 - Understanding Anonymity" pamphlet, in the Question and Answer section, it is suggested to "Use last names within the Fellowship, especially for election of group officers and other service jobs." Several people at the meetings which I attend use their full names, as do I. It allows us to more specifically identify one another for group purposes, and there are times when group knowledge of full names makes it possible to contact someone when they are needed for help. This is up to the individual and is not considered a violation of the eleventh or twelfth traditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.226.164 (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@24.228.226.164: this is a fair point, the best approach would be to find something meeting WP:RS to use as a source for this. - Scarpy (talk) 22:46, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Marked Dubious in August 2020

"In twelve-step fellowships, "spiritual awakening" is believed to most frequently develop slowly over a period of time."

There are DOZENS of twelve step fellowship, each with their own literature and unique language describing the highly diverse and subjective "spiritual awakenings" experienced by their millions of members. There is no way to characterize the manner, or pace by which these "spiritual experiences" arrive. Even in the AA Big Book (just 1 12-step fellowship), the main text description of a "sudden, white light" experience is at odds with the "gradual" experience described in Appendix 2. The statement takes one description from Appendix 2, and generalizes it to a broadly held belief, which seems dubious at best.Bryan Hopping T 00:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hopping In twelve-step fellowships, "spiritual awakening" is believed to most frequently develop slowly over a period of time. I suppose we could say something like "most frequently, but not always." to clarify. I'm struggling to see what you're objecting too. - Scarpy (talk) 16:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Scarpy How do we know what millions of people in 12-step programs believe or don't believe? The only source listed for this statement is a book written in 1939, so the one source is over 80 years old. In general, this article has an RS problem. The "Big Book" was a book written about 100 individual people living in the 1930s. The BigBook is not a reliable source to describe the situation in 2020, i.e. millions of people involved in dozens of different 12-step programs. It may be a reliable description of where 12-step programs *started* (just AA), but not necessarily what they are today (something much broader). Bryan Hopping T 21:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There’s not A claim being made about what millions of people in twelve-step programs believe. You’re shifting the goal posts here. What is citied is the view of AA from which all other twelve-steps are derived. this is of course a primary source but is used appropriately here (I believe that part of it appeared originally in the second edition).
If you want to find new RS for describing how often a spiritual experience is experienced quickly vs. slowly in 2020, be my guest. It strikes me as a bikeshed. - Scarpy (talk) 21:50, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Taking your points into consideration. Id suggest a statement more like the following: "In the first edition of the the book Alcoholics Anonymous, the spiritual experience is described as sudden and dramatic, however in the 2nd edition appendix the experience is described as more often educational, developing over a period of time." Bryan Hopping T 22:48, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this is what AA says. The terms "spiritual experience" and "spiritual awakening" are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms... Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous... In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming "God-consciousness" followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook... Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the "educational variety" because they develop slowly over a period of time. [1]
And this is what the article says The illness of the spiritual dimension, or "spiritual malady," is considered in all twelve-step groups to be self-centeredness. The process of working the steps is intended to replace self-centeredness with a growing moral consciousness and a willingness for self-sacrifice and unselfish constructive action. In twelve-step groups, this is known as a spiritual awakening. This should neither be confused with abreaction, which produces dramatic, but ephemeral, changes, nor with a religious experience. In twelve-step fellowships, "spiritual awakening" is believed to most frequently develop slowly over a period of time.
Re-reading and checking the citations on this paragraph now, I believe it could use more sourcing to draw brighter lines between a religious experience vs. spiritual awakening, and the clarify the difference between a spiritual awakening and abreaction. The point made in the Marmor 1980 is a good one The emotional release therapies all operate on the concept of abreaction originally advanced by Freud. Early in his career Freud was convinced that if people could recall the early traumatic incidents that had made them sick and discharge painful emotions connected with these traumata, they would get better ipso facto. As time when on, however, Freud found that emotional release in and of itself resulted in only temporary improvement. He then abandoned it as the major goal of therapy and turned to the more painstaking, time-consuming, and difficult process of trying to work through the patients defenses and resistances. [2]
We could leave readers with the mistaken impression that there is a high probability when people go to AA (or a similar twelve-step group) they will have an abrupt "spiritual experience" one day and all of their problems will quickly evaporate. When in reality it will probably be a lot about taking an inventory and doing a lot of work and that will take time. In the context of depression/neurosis Bill made a similar point writing to Ollie. it may be that someday we shall devise some common denominator of psychiatry — of course, throwing away their much abused terminology — common denominators which neurotics could use on each other. The idea would be to extend the moral inventory of AA to a deeper level, making it an inventory of psychic damages, reliving in conversation episodes, etc. I suppose someday a Neurotics Anonymous will be formed and will actually do all this. Neurotics_Anonymous#History
... so in terms of the expectations that AA sets about the process of AA, the probability is higher that it will occur gradually. It reminds me a bit of Bill W.'s experiences with LSD.
Unlike inhabitants of more traditional cultures, citizens of the United States tend to suspect not the sudden, but the gradual. And so those who experience sudden conversion usually regard their change as somehow more genuine. Thus it was that in spite of the A.A. Big Book's measured words about “educational variety spiritual experiences,” Bill W. was himself drawn to seek ways of making more available the “sudden and spectacular upheavals” that although not necessary, seemed very, very useful. [3]
Makes me think of some of the more recent work with psilocybin and smoking cessation.[4] But that's another topic...
So, reading again, I do see room for improvement here. But the important point that is that the expectation set is that a spiritual awakening will take work and time, but there are exceptions. We could provisionally say something like...
The illness of the spiritual dimension, or "spiritual malady," is considered in all twelve-step groups to be self-centeredness. The process of working the steps is intended to replace self-centeredness with a growing moral consciousness and a willingness for self-sacrifice and unselfish constructive action. In twelve-step groups, this is known as a spiritual awakening. This should not be confused with abreaction, which produces dramatic, but temporary, changes. As a rule, in twelve-step fellowships, "spiritual awakening" is occurs slowly over a period of time, although there are exceptions where members experience it suddenly. - Scarpy (talk) 18:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

basic definition

This intro suggests that a "12-step program" is a sequence of specific actions as recommended in the 12-steps. The common meaning of "12-step program" is much broader. 12-step programs all include certain elements: 1. They all hold meetings of individuals seeking help (no experts) 2. At these "meeting", individuals are encouraged to share openly about their difficulties with compulsive behaviors (addiction), 3. Individuals are encouraged to "get involved" in meetings in other ways, "doing service" or other outreach, 5. These meetings often use "literature" that is common to all meetings of that fellowship to further their understanding and practice of recovery from compulsive behaviors, often this literature references "the 12-steps", but some of it does not, 6. The organization structure connected individual meetings to each other is decentralized and loose. These are the common elements essential to all "12-step programs" : the fellowships, the meetings, the steps themselves, the literature, the service (helping to organize & outreach). This article implies throughout that a "12-step program" is a narrowly defined process delineated by actual text of the 12-steps. It erroneously suggests no distinction between a "12-step program" and "the 12-steps." The more common understanding is that AA, NA, GA, etc are all "12-step programs", which are characterized by non-expert, "addicted" members who meet in groups to share/discuss/encourage each other's recovery. The meetings are the central feature, and they are connected to one another through a decentralized organizational structure. Bryan Hopping T 01:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You would need a citations stating 1, 2, 3 (I think you skipped 4), 5 and 6.
To your other point It erroneously suggests no distinction between a "12-step program" and "the 12-steps." I'm struggling to see where you're getting this. What you have listed in 1,2,3,5 and 6 are guiding principles and courses of action as stated in the lede A twelve-step program is a set of guiding principles outlining a course of action for recovery from addiction, compulsion, or other behavioral problems. - Scarpy (talk) 16:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Scarpy I appreciate your points. Of course I agree everything needs to be sourced properly. My point is that our intro sentence should state most simply what 12-step programs are. I'm suggesting the opening statements should be something more like:
"12 step-program are mutual aid groups organized with the goal of helping members recover from mental and behavioral health problems. Developed in the 1930s, the first 12-step program, called Alcoholics Anonymous, aided its membership to overcome alcohol use disorder (alcoholism). Since that time, over 100(?) other 12-step programs have been developed to address problems as varied as drug addiction, compulsive gambling and depression. All 12 step programs utilize a version of "The 12 Steps" to describe the core pathway to remission from active illness. The APA summarizes the 12-steps thus:" (etc)
Bryan Hopping T 22:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Twelve-step-programs are mutual aid organizations for the purpose of recovery from addiction, compulsion, or other behavioral problems. Developed in the 1930s, the first twelve-step program, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), aided its membership to overcome alcoholism. Since that time dozens of other organizations have been derived from AA's approach to address problems as varied as drug addiction, compulsive gambling and overeating. All twelve-step programs utilize a version of AA's suggested twelve-steps as a program of recovery the American Psychological Association (APA) summarizes them as follows."
Some points here (1) we decided years ago to use "twelve-step" rather than "12-step" and it would be a lot of work to change. (2) AA was not developed to treat alcohol use disorder -- that didn't exist in 1939, and AA still doesn't exist to treat alcohol use disorder. (3) Let's stick to the numbers for notable group (a bar that's already probably too low), outside of AA, NA, Al-Anon and OA, the numbers for other twelve-step groups are vanishingly small. - Scarpy (talk) 17:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

rejoinder

I made these updates today, with some slight modifications and removed the dubious tags. - Scarpy (talk) 22:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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