Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Archive 4

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WikiTree

Dear colleagues,
I was consulting the list to find out the status of WikiTree as a source for genealogical information, but it is currently not included in the list. Before I start a discussion about it on the noticeboard, does anyone have experience in using it in an article, or of its suitability for biographies of old-time performers (i.e., not WP:BLP)? Thank you very much in advance.
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 15:10, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
PS: On taking a closer look, it appears to be an aggregator of FamilySearch and Findmypast, which are deemed generally unreliable; so, this suggests WikiTree would most likely share that status too.
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 15:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Pdebee, I think you're absolutely right. In addition to FamilySearch (RSP entry) and Findmypast (RSP entry), WikiTree looks similar to Ancestry.com (RSP entry) and Geni.com (RSP entry), all of which are considered generally unreliable due to lack of editorial oversight. — Newslinger talk 04:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Question on list creation

Hello everyone, I would like if someone who is familiar with the creation of this list could tell me whether it would make sense to create a similar but separate list for sources in Serbo-Croatian language, that are often and in large numbers used under the Balkan scope? Perhaps, at some point, this could be extended to the whole of Eastern Europe and the languages in use there, however, in both versions the geographically scope should be probably defined, beside lang, in line with ARBMAC / ARBEE. Thanks.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 17:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@Santasa99:, what methodology were you thinking of using for building the list? If you're just planning on writing it using your own opinions, there isn't much stopping you from just starting your own list, with the caveat being that its authority will be only as strong as your own personal arguments. If you're planning on building the list based on the consensuses of archived discussions, then WP:NPPSG may be a good place to log the assessments if the consensuses aren't strong enough to list here. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course not, it would defeat the purpose to build something on your own - I was thinking, using the same methodology as with creation of existing Perennial sources list, although I have to admit I was pretty assured that simply following ongoing and registering previous discussions and results in individual RSN's would be only appropriate way - I mean, isn't the Perennial sources list created by simply registering results of the most recent RSN discussion outcomes ?--౪ Santa ౪^99° 18:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

In that case, I'd suggest that we use WP:NPPSG for this (I'm effectively already doing that, although other than a few Albanian sources there's been little discussion about the Balkans on RSN since I've started). The difference between that list and RSP (other than the sorting) is that NPPSG has a lower bar for inclusion than RSP. RSP documents discussions that are truly perennial, or that at least have been thoroughly discussed in an RfC, whereas NPPSG documents any reliability discussion that includes a general reliability assessment. The name NPPSG is honestly a bit of a misnomer at this point but I've been lazy about renaming it. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Some WikiProjects have assembled source lists that are focused on specific topic or geographical areas. See WP:RSP § Topic-specific pages for a list. If you would like to create a list, I recommend doing so under a relevant WikiProject so that it gets seen by more editors who would find it helpful. The methodology to use for this list would be up to you. Some of these topic-specific lists include more discussions from talk pages covered under the related WikiProject in addition to discussions from the reliable sources noticeboard. However, I'm not sure which WikiProject to place this under, since WikiProject Eastern Europe is inactive.

Rosguill's recommendation to use WP:NPPSG is a good idea, since it has sections for geographical areas and would be used by new page patrollers in addition to editors interested in the topic area. Regardless of whether you choose to create a separate list, adding entries to WP:NPPSG would ensure that they get seen and are made use of by more editors. ​— Newslinger talk 04:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

PinkNews as a reliable source

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#PinkNews. It's a reassessment matter. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Given the way the discussion has evolved, do you think it would be a good idea to convert it into a formal RfC? Armadillopteryx^talk 02:57, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Reliability of the ADL?

Should this be considered the same as Hope Not Hate? CantingCrew (talk) 15:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)CantingCrew

There is currently an active RfC on the Anti-Defamation League at WP:RSN § RfC: Anti-Defamation League (ADL). Feel free to ask questions and express your opinions there. — Newslinger talk 19:53, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

The origin of Memes and citing Knowyourmeme

I don't know how any more accurate evidence can be found on topics this obscure, or are we simply to wait until a publication decides to talk about it ( and often get it wrong ). Especially because contextually there isn't a better site. This has led to inaccuracies on other pages. There is a good context for referencing such sites.CantingCrew (talk) 15:27, 15 July 2020 (UTC)CantingCrew

​Know Your Meme (RSP entry) is currently classified as generally unreliable because its entries are user-generated. Even when it is the best source available, it does not have enough editorial control to meet the verifiability policy's requirement of "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". There are many sources on the Internet that readers appreciate, yet do not meet Wikipedia's standards of inclusion, and Know Your Meme is one of them. If you find evidence of editorial control at Know Your Meme that other editors have missed, feel free to start a new discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard. — Newslinger talk 19:58, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Global Times

Is the now closed discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 294#Global Times specific enough for us to change what we say for the Global Times? It appears to be the only discussion we’ve had on the Global Times specifically since 2014 (the 2019 discussion was a combined discussion of six sources and it was noted that among them GT was the least reliable) and consensus is clear but participation was light.Horse Eye Jack (talk) 23:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I probably wouldn't as yet - generally speaking, I don't think there should be a rush to list things here unless consensus is clearly overwhelming. There's a vexed and ongoing argument about just how independent various state-owned media are and where they therefore go on the reliability scale - David Gerard (talk) 09:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

The Global Times is already listed here. They also aren’t one of the edge cases we’re concerned about with state-owned media, these guys are worse than RT. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I think more participation would be helpful here, probably in the form of an RfC. — Newslinger talk 02:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Can add CGTN and SCMP to the discussion as well. NoNews! 06:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

CGTN yes but not SCMP... SCMP is editorially independent of the Chinese government and located in HK. CGTN and Global Times are similarly unreliable state mouthpieces. SCMP is generally reliable. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Is there a list of reliable HK sources out there somewhere? Because it's came up in AfDs a few times and I assume not every news outlet there would be reliable. I'd love to start a list if there isn't one already. Adamant1 (talk) 10:22, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Wording for a listing

Newslinger, the AfterEllen discussion recently closed: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 302#AfterEllen. Any ideas for what wording to use for its listing on this page? The consensus is generally reliable, with a strong emphasis on context. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:31, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Flyer22 Frozen, I think we need one more discussion of AfterEllen before the site meets the inclusion criteria. There are several discussions of AfterElton.com (now TheBacklot.com), described in Wikipedia as "the companion site of AfterEllen.com (AfterEllen)", but I am not sure if it is appropriate to group AfterEllen and AfterElton together. I noticed that the new page patrol source guide currently lists AfterEllen in WP:NPPSG § No consensus with the description "a July 2020 RSN discussion did not come to a consensus, with a majority arguing that it was generally reliable and usable as attributable opinion". I can see how a formal closure would be useful for this discussion, and it is unfortunate that the discussion was not turned into an RfC because the subject is quite controversial. — Newslinger talk 02:43, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Newslinger, as always, no need to ping me since I watch this page and I check back for replies regardless.

There are listings on this page that are supported by only one discussion, and I don't see what else could be stated about AfterEllen at this point in time. The WP:NPPSG listing is contradictory since the sentence clearly states "with a majority arguing that it was generally reliable and usable as attributable opinion." So that should be tweaked away from "no consensus." And I'll do that now. I could request a formal close of the discussion since closes have been carried out after a thread has been archived, but I think I'll likely leave it be. And I agree that AfterEllen should be judged on its own merits. AfterElton/TheBacklot is defunct. As for AfterEllen's listing here at WP:RSP, I'm not pressed to have it listed. I questioned the matter because discussion on it recently closed. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:59, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I'll leave that listing at WP:NPPSG as is for now. But that listing is currently contradictory. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 03:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Since RfCs are widely publicized through the feedback request system, an RfC can serve as a substitute for two discussions. However, there are simply too many sources discussed on the noticeboard for this list to include those that only have one non-RfC discussion. The inclusion criteria were initially formed in Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Archive 2 § Criteria for inclusion, and I unsuccessfully proposed that they be tightened in Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Archive 3 § Adding notability to the inclusion criteria. If you think the criteria can be improved in some way, please share your suggestions. I'll try to remember your preference to not be pinged—sorry about that. — Newslinger talk 03:12, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Newslinger: Just an FYI. AfterElton.com > TheBacklot.com = zero. The website was dissolved in 2015. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 00:12, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Flyer, I have put in a formal request for closure after a request from Pyxis. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

How to search Wikipedia use of sources...?

Is there a search method to find instances of a source used across Wikipedia? Is it possible, say, to search Wikipedia’s use of a certain site or book or article across articles? X0bN14Rb (talk) 00:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi X0bN14Rb, you can use the insource: parameter in the search box to find articles that include links to a certain website. There is also Special:LinkSearch, although it includes search results from all namespaces (including discussion pages) and requires separate searches for HTTP and HTTPS links. The {{RSourceSummary}} and {{Domain uses}} templates might be helpful. Book citations are more difficult to locate, but a good starting point would be to search for the book's title (in quotes) or the book's ISBN. — Newslinger talk 01:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! This worked wonders; very helpful! X0bN14Rb (talk) 15:32, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

An entry for Ad Fontes Media

Ad Fontes Media has been discussed enough to warrant an entry, see 1 2 3 4(and many other incidental mentions). Can we workshop an entry here? I think the general concensus is that it is generally unreliable, but I would like to discuss what the specific text should be used in the entry. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and done it anyway. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Hemiauchenia, I'm not sure I agree with your summary. While the majority of editors have argued that it is unreliable, some have argued that it may sometimes be usable with attribution. The current summary writes that latter camp out of the equation _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Rosguill: I assume this is in reference to the 3rd discussion? One of the users who suggested it was use as attributable (Brian K Horton in his only non-Daily Mail related comment) was banned for sockpuppetry and so therefore I assign his opinion no due weight. Only one other editor in the 3rd discussion expressed the opinion that it usable with attribution. I thought the concensus of most other participants in all of the discussions combined weighed against the handful of editors who considered it usable with attribution. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:58, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Hemiauchenia, in the third discussion, PaleoNeonate also suggested that it was usable with attribution and Valjean said it was full-on reliable, with Guy adding that he considers it to be useful but not directly citeable. Two editors called it unreliable outright. In the fourth discussion, feminist argued that it was usable if cited by other more reliable sources, and Guy repeated his position, with an additional editor echoing Guy. I think we're leaning towards unreliable, but I would not call that a consensus. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:04, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Guy said: "No. Ad Fontes is not a RS. It's a useful guide when assessing sources but is not in and of itself reliable". As far as I understand, RSP is about whether a source can be used in article space not about whether it is a good guide for discussions about other sources, Guy also stated in another discussion that "I would not cite it on the encyclopaedia". Feminist's comment was "Usable if quoted in a third-party source. So, hypothetically, if the New York Times cites the Ad Fontes Chart's "skews right" rating of One America News in a news article about OANN, we can use the NYT article as a source to support a statement which reads 'The source is rated "skews right" by Ad Fontes Media'", it means that Ad Fontes Media should only be mentioned if a reliable third party gives the rating significance, which is not the same as suggesting that Ad Fontes ratings can be directly cited with attribution. Valjean's comment did not mention attribution at all. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Valjean's comment didn't mention attribution, but I think that "usable with attribution" is an appropriate middle ground to mention. There's clearly little support for general reliability, but editors that argued for that position still pull the overall consensus away from a blanket statement of unreliability, provided that the arguments aren't obviously ludicrous. Similarly, feminist's argument is too nuanced and too much of a minority for it to make sense to quote it verbatim, but nonetheless suggests that a blanket statement of unreliability is not appropriate. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

In the Wonkette discussion, sche suggested that "No. To say, in the article body, that "Ad Fontes Media considers Wonkette left-wing" would probably be alright if other sources covered (and hence attached weight to) Ad Fontes' view of Wonkette. To cite them as a source for a claim in wikivoice that "Wonkette is far left" is not, for reasons Aquillon lays out (namely that it involves OR [mis?]interpreting their image, and it's also unclear that they are reliable)." This argument is very similar to feminist's. I would be okay with the addition of "some editors consider Ad Fontes ratings usable with attribution if reliable third party sources have covered the specific rating" or a similar wording. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Some thoughts

I'm having second thoughts about the entire perennial source process, and the way we are judging the "whole" despite its many "parts", such as (a) multiple broadcast stations that comprise a television network, (b) numerous individual programs that comprise a channel, and (c) various topics that comprise individual sections of an online or print publication. We are depriving ourselves access to a rich pool of resources by using a flawed rating system. POV creep is a serious issue, and I am concerned that it poses a threat to encyclopedic diversity and NPOV which is one of the 3 most important core content policies of WP. We are already dangerously close to our results being the product of Groupthink rather than reaching results from a more nuanced approach that involves critical thinking based on unbiased expert analysis and experience. It's one thing to write an article without experience, etc. but it's something entirely different if the result of such critical decisions negatively effect a RS because it was based on misinformation or misunderstanding, or the hedging of guidelines, the lack of experience and/or unawareness - give or take, whatever fits best. What I'm seeing here is that our results are a culmination of SYNTH (combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion) + biased POV. We're taking criticism at face value from various sources that may have a financial COI or political bias against Fox, and we're adding it all together to conclude that an entire network or channel is "unreliable". To that, add our own POV creep and favoritism or dislike for Fox's conservative programming. We held an RfC to reach a consensus in an effort to rate the entire source's reliability, despite the many parts that comprise the whole, and by doing so, we dismissed WP:RS which states: Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process. We are actually seeding bias by such a judgment call, and prejudicing an editor's choice of sources using this flawed rating system when we should be evaluating specific material published in a source that we want to include in a given article based on CONTEXT. We can't deny that liberals will dismiss a conservative source or vice versa, intentional or otherwise, and based on first impressions, it appears to be playing out here. Perhaps it's time to prepare a survey for wider community input at VPP because of the policies involved, rather than limit it to a single noticeboard. I'm certainly open to be convinced otherwise. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC) ^{Re: the underlined wikilink was added 19:10, July 28, 2020 after I created the essay to help editors understand my use of POV creep. Atsme _Talk 📧 01:06, 29 July 2020 (UTC)}

You made 69 edits in the RfC. Above, you tried to rehash it. It now sounds like you didn’t like the result, and so you wish to toss it and start over elsewhere. O3000 (talk) 18:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "POV creep" and we are not in danger of creating a groupthink product. And can we please leave U.S. politics out of this? RSP has become one of the most useful content resources on Wikipedia, and for good reason: it succinctly reflects consensus from prior discussions. It's an index. This guide was never meant to be a substitute for discussion and evaluating sources in the context in which they are proposed to be used. - MrX 🖋 18:37, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not "conservative programming" Fox produces. They're among the most radical of the radical right and far to the right of what would be considered "conservative" in most contexts. GPinkerton (talk) 19:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

That's a good point GPinkerton. They used to be ordinary right-wing (and thus a RS with a right-wing bias), but since (at least) the Obama candidature, they started sliding more and more to the right and are now radical right-wing, not truly conservative. Now that they are supporting Trump and steering his agenda, they are just a misinformation source, regardless of the left/right matter, which is consistent with Trump, as he is not consistently left/right, but consistently pushes fake news, falsehoods, and conspiracy theories, and Fox News amplifies that. -- Valjean (talk) 20:42, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, in the close of the RfC it was stated:

There was a very large amount of what we considered to be bludgeoning from certain participants of this RFC. While there is no formal limit to the maximum number of times one may comment on a given discussion, replying with the same argument(s) to multiple participants holding an opposite viewpoint becomes extremely tedious (bordering on tendentious).

That "certain participants" in part, includes your conduct during the RfC, which you appear to not have realised or acknowledged. The Daily Mail and the Sun are the top 2 best selling newspapers in the UK, and yet both were deprecated, one wonders if the Wikipedia userbase was more British skewed whether there would have been more protest. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: I doubt that. People that build encyclopaedias and people that read The Sun or the Mail are non-overlapping sets. The Sun is also about one tenth the price of any other newspaper, which explains its continuing high rate of circulation. Neither paper is anything like as right-wing as Fox, though both are as unreliable/nefarious. GPinkerton (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I think you would be suprised. While has ameliorated under the current editor Geordie Greig, during the tenure of Paul Dacre the Daily Mail was very right wing, with constant antagonistic stories about migrants and a strong support for Brexit, including the infamous Enemies of the People (headline). There is also a non-negligible number of editors who indeed think that the Daily Mail is usable as a source, see Talk:Death_of_Keith_Blakelock#Please_stop_edit-warring_a_deprecated_source_into_the_article and the numerous complaints on User_talk:David_Gerard including by Cassianto (see User_talk:David_Gerard#Your_war_on_the_Daily_Mail, who has written 17 FAs. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: I'm not saying they're not very right-wing, I'm just saying Fox is more extreme. I know all about the Daily Mail and its awful tub-thumping but it would never support, say, the abolition of free universal healthcare, which I believe is considered a kind of communism in the neo-McCarthyite Fox newsroom. GPinkerton (talk) 00:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

May I offer an observation in passing, being British? The Sun and Daily Mail undoubtedly lie on occasion, deliberately, in exchange for circulation boosts. So does a lot of British journalism. Circulation is a powerful incentive when the consequence is trivial and far in the future. They also, and in the main, report factually when they're not making it up for scandalous effect. It's a matter of judgment whether a given report is truthful news or not. Flagging up disputed source is fair enough as a warning but it doesn't mean a report is false. You can be pretty certain it will be biased, which is another matter, but it may well be factual. Flagging sources as biased would cover far too high a proportion of citations on Wikipedia, the bar has to be higher than mere predictable repetitive bias which would necessarily include stalwart factual newspapers of record like the Guardian as well as the tabloid trash - and I say that as a Guardian subscriber. JohnHarris (talk) 09:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton, Fox News is definitely more, and more consistently, biased, but the debate lumped in Fox affiliates (which are not Fox News), most of which are entirely normal local journalism. But the Daily Mail had a significant problem under Dacre of simply making shit up, including fabricated quotes, and Fox generally doesn't do that. They merely give airtime to people who do. Guy (help!) 22:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, You failed to get the result you want. The close specifically calls out WP:BLUDGEONing, and you are obviously one of the worst offenders in that.

But the fundamental problem here is the asymmetric polarisation of US media. We have a situation where one side accuses the other of "fake news" while sharing the shit out of literal fake news. Fox moved sharply to the right in 2015/16 as Breitbart started taking clicks, shares, and ad revenue from them. OANN has outflanked Fox on the more extreme right. And the core of the problem is uncritical defence of Trump. Guy (help!) 22:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Guy, you pinged me here, so I'll respond to your misinformation about me per your comment: "You failed to get the result you want". I actually did get the results I wanted except for one minor caveat, and if I was concerned about "not getting my way", as you put it, I would have challenged the close instead of awarding 3 Closer's Barnstars. There were at least 5 other editors dancing the bludgeoning dance, so you need to stop singling me out to denigrate me because that fits the textbook definition of WP:HOUNDING, not to mention your prejudice against me. I also find it interesting that other editors opened side discussions during the RfC, and nothing was said to them, but the minute I started one, the flood gates opened. I have already had a discussion with Rosguill, and also communicated with Newslinger, both of whom have always been very polite and accommodating. I also expressed my concerns to you back when you first started down this bumpy road of rating whole sources and entire networks and you were doing it long before the Fox RfC was initiated, so my concerns predate the Fox RfC. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@Atsme: - We can't deny that liberals will dismiss a conservative source or vice versa - so why is the Wall Street Journal still green then? Are there concerted efforts to remove it? Why not? starship.paint (talk) 06:52, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Starship - I'm not going to comment about the WSJ because former owners Sue Bancroft, and Ed Jones are close acquaintenances, which skirts COI. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

One could also mention The Times and staunchly conservative The Telegraph, and their Sunday-paper stablemates, and others besides rightly considered "reliable" ... GPinkerton (talk) 18:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I would rate The Times higher than the Telegraph though, the fact that they have repeatedly promoted climate change denial, censored their reporting to appease their advertiser HSBC as well as their re-printing of Chinese propaganda puts them on the same tier as The Independent imo. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I'd say the most reliable paper in the UK is the FT. The Times is pretty good, with a right bias; the Grauniad is pretty good, with a left bias. If the Times and the Grauniad agree, then it's probably true. The Torygraph has been on a downward slide for years (it was very Brexity, for example, to the extent of denying obvious facts). And guess which periodical I subscribe to... Guy (help!) 23:03, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, could you please add a note under your original comment indicating that you added a link to Wikipedia:POV creep in Special:Diff/970057690? I'm trying to resolve the issue raised at User talk:Newslinger § Revert. — Newslinger talk 01:06, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

SPLC

Discussion of the question Levivich is asking

Why is SPLC listed as green? I'm not seeing a discussion that was closed as "generally reliable" and many of them seem to suggest the opposite, e.g. [1]. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 20:25, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I believe that before seeking to change something, one should first understand why it is the way it is. So that's all I'm asking. Please, if you want to discuss whether it should be green, or how RSP works, or accuse other editors of "sour grapes", or anything other than "why is SPLC listed as green", please do that in the subsection below, and keep this one for the simple question: why is it listed green? Thanks, Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 23:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

The Southern Poverty Law Center is classified as "generally reliable" because that was its original designation on this list, and there has not yet been consensus to change it. While the discussion you linked, #16, is closer to "no consensus", past discussions hovered somewhere between "generally reliable" and "no consensus", most visibly in discussion #14. In a five-tier system, the SPLC would be a tier 2 source. Since discussion #16 hints at a downward trend in editors' opinions of the SPLC, I recommend starting an RfC on the reliability of the SPLC. Our reliability standards have increased since 2008, and this may affect the SPLC as well. — Newslinger talk 02:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Newslinger. Was 2008 when it was originally listed? Also thanks for linking to the five tier discussion, that's interesting. Has that been revisited since? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 02:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

No problem. 2008 is just the year that discussion #1 took place. The entry for the SPLC has not been discussed in depth, but there was an edit war in February 2019 which is the reason I listed the SPLC as one of the two "controversially classified sources" on the banner at the top of this talk page. While it is possible to change the status of entries through a discussion on this talk page, in practice, if there's any sort of controversy or disagreement about what the entry should say, the discussion is continued on the noticeboard for a fresh look at the source (e.g. Jewish Virtual Library and PinkNews). Feel free to start an RfC on the SPLC. I could also do it myself if you prefer, but I've been trying to encourage list-related participation from other editors. — Newslinger talk 02:56, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Also, if you meant to ask about whether the five-tier system has been revisited, it has not. The format of this list has been stable for a year and a half, and I would expect resistance to any major changes. — Newslinger talk 03:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks again. Yes, I was asking about the five-tier proposal. Is there an easy way to tell when an RSP entry was added? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 03:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Not yet, besides watchlisting this page and checking the page history. There is an editnotice that reminds editors to include a descriptive edit summary with each change to the list. I am working on a project that will make the information on this list more accessible, and will have more to announce in the near future. — Newslinger talk 03:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The explanation on SPLC matches what I recall being the last RFC and the general use of it, and particularly with the last major test case against it - the Confederate statue study it did a few years back (that was deemed an RS free of bias compared to their hate group cataloging). Unless we want to split it into two like being proposed for Fox News, I think green is correct and easiest to parse, with the explanation tersely getting the point on RSOPINION aspects across. --Masem (t) 13:36, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Discussion of anything else

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

@Levivich: The banner at the top of this talkpage states:

Fox News (RSP entry) and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) (RSP entry) are the most controversially classified sources in this list. The most recent Fox News RfC is from 2020, and there has never been an RfC for the SPLC. If you disagree with the classifications of these sources, please start an RfC (request for comment) on the reliable sources noticeboard to determine the current consensus instead of directly editing your preferred classification into the list. If you are unfamiliar with RfCs, please ask here, and other editors will be glad to assist.

Feel free to call a RfC if you think that is necessary (which I would support) I called a RfC on the ADL for a similar reason. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Hemiauchenia, thanks, I know that. I meant my question literally: why is it listed green? Especially if there's never been an RFC, how did it get on this page? At some point, someone added it and someone made it green, and I'm too lazy to go diff diving to find out who and when, and I care more about why, that is, what is the logic behind it being listed here and listed as green. So I'm asking: why is it green?

I guess a second question is: who decided to add a banner saying "If you disagree with the classifications of these sources, please start an RfC", as opposed to following our usual rule, which is onus for inclusion, not exclusion. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 20:32, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Obviously this stems from the discussion above about the coloring of Fox News. If "no consensus on reliability" = yellow (makes sense), then we need to apply that standard to all the entries here, not just Fox News. Which means everything is yellow until and unless there is an RFC that results in consensus on reliability, in which case it's green, or that results in consensus on unreliability, in which case it's red. Until one of those two outcomes, everything should be yellow. To color it green without an RFC strikes me as very misleading to editors, who will assume it's backed by an RFC. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 20:36, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

False equivalency. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 21:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

There are 16 linked discussions. That more than meets the inclusion criteria, consistent with every other entry on the list. There is no requirement for discussions to be formally closed. Also, I have personally participated in dozens of talk page discussions where SPLC was challenged for reliability and the consensus that it is generally reliable has always been upheld. - MrX 🖋 21:12, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

In those 16 discussions, there is no consensus for "generally reliable". For example, in this 2019 discussion I linked to, it seems half the editors thought it was generally unreliable. Can you link to discussions where SPLC was challenged for reliability and the consensus was that it is generally reliable? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 21:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you were counting sources instead of evaluating the strengths of the arguments and their basis in policy. No, I decline to provide you with a bespoke list of links to specific discussions amongst the thousands of pages that I've edited. - MrX 🖋 23:19, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

"I have personally participated in dozens of talk page discussions ..."

"Can you link ... ?"

"No, I decline to provide you with a bespoke list of links ..."

Thanks for that helpful exchange. It's always such a pleasure to work with you. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 23:46, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Levivich, SPLC is pretty much the most widely cited source (by RS that we in turn cite) on hate groups in America. When I see SPLC cited, it is always with attribution. Guy (help!) 22:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

This page is based on discussions, not just rfcs. You can argue the status quo interpretation of part discussions is incorrect, but a formal rfc isn't required for listing here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:21, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't explain why it's green. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 21:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Lev - ONUS is for inclusion and a rating. SPLC is a group of lawyers who are fighting for social justice (civil rights, racial equality) which makes them an advocacy - a good one, but an advocacy nonetheless. The Britannica states: "SPLC’s activities have long generated both widespread acclaim and ongoing political controversy. The organization has been accused of financial mismanagement, misleading fund-raising methods, and institutionalized racism. In addition it has been charged with exaggerating the threat of racism for purposes of fund-raising, of wrongfully applying the term hate group to legitimate organizations, and of promoting a left-wing “politically correct” agenda under the guise of civil rights. It requires caution, intext attribution, and context is highly important. It should not automatically be considered a generally RS. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Britannica says it has been accused. Nothing more. Accusations are often made baselessly, as in this case. GPinkerton (talk) 22:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Nope. See CNN, NYTimes, WaPo, Newsweek...and on and on. You won't find it if you don't look for it. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:24, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Are you suggesting you have to look out of a special Overton window? I see nothing whatever in those articles that suggests their reporting is unreliable, or has a "left-wing “politically correct” agenda" or is "guising" as a civil rights organization. GPinkerton (talk) 03:13, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I was trying to be helpful by providing links to several high quality RS, including EB, a long standing encyclopedia that is a reputable tertiary source with "real editorial staff, and high quality articles." Your argument is that we must prove a negative based on the logic that allegations/criticism mean nothing or they are baseless, and I might even agree if the claims were not originating from employees/whistleblowers inside SPLC which were followed by: "changes in its leadership and a company-wide review." Regardless, the homerun argument is WP:RSSELF which clearly states: Never use self-published sources as independent sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer. We actually don't need an RfC to figure out SPLC is a self-published source or that it's an advocacy. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

RSSELF clearly does not apply to the SPLC. O3000 (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

If the source cited is a feature or story published in SPLC, then it certainly does apply. If SPLC is cited by a 3rd party RS source, then see the ArbCom principle for BLP inclusion: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Vivaldi#Quotation of material from an unreliable source states: 8) Quotation of material from an unreliable source by a source generally considered reliable does not render the information acceptable for inclusion in Wikipedia. It's a simple 1+1 equation for BLP - "Never use self-published sources as independent sources about living people..." + Quotation of material from an unreliable source..." = find a better source to cite. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Again, SPLC is not a self-published source. Self-published books and newsletters, personal pages on social networking sites, tweets, and posts on Internet forums are all examples of self-published media. - MrX 🖋 15:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Again...yes it is - see Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works which includes examples of SPS - Business, charitable, and personal websites.

1. Who is the author or creator of the work? A: Southern Poverty Law Center - it is their website
2. Who is the publisher of the work? A: Southern Poverty Law Center per Our Issues; their employees also write features. Their employees/executives conduct research & investigation, and they litigate. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Um the NYTimes would be "self-published" under that criteria. nableezy - 22:00, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Self-published sources can be reliable, and they can be used (but not for third-party claims about living people). See my comments above. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The author and publisher are not the same person. Self-published means a person who is both author and publisher. SPLC spent $36 million on salaries and benefits last year and has offices in four states. Yes they write some features. We don’t generally use them. We also don’t use NYTimes editorials. SPLC is no more self-published than the NYTimes. O3000 (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I would assume that the author of this page is someone under the supervision of the organization itself. It would be highly unusual for an organization to allow an independent source to author the "about" page on its official website. Likewise this is self-published. The key issue is whether the employees are told what to write. The writers need to be independent of the publisher, and not be in fear of getting fired for writing something the publisher doesn't want to read. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, obviously the NYTimes and SPLC both have supervisors and can both fire writers. This isn’t related to self-publishing. It could be discussed on WP:RSN as a reliability factor. O3000 (talk) 17:10, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

^^^^Exactly. There is no difference. - MrX 🖋 17:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

re: "The author and publisher are not the same person. Self-published means a person who is both author and publisher." But corporations are people too.

The supreme court said so. So we should be on the lookout for corporations that are both author and publisher. wbm1058 (talk) 21:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, but since SPLC is not a self-published source, that is not an issue. Guy (help!) 19:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Reply to ping - I have already presented a solid argument. Also see the comment above by wbm1058 because he gets it, too. The website, it's staff/employees/directors/executives/writers are not independent of the organization. An organization's website is self-published, and when it provides information about the organization, it is non-independent. The SPLC website publishes information about the organization's work, accomplishments, research, litigation, various publications, features and articles written by their employees about SPLC's work. They admit here that they published the field guide that cost the organization over $3 million - they are responsible for their authors/published work/research/conclusions/allegations, etc.: The Southern Poverty Law Center was wrong to include Maajid Nawaz and the Quilliam Foundation in our Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists. Since we published the Field Guide, we have taken the time to do more research and have consulted with human rights advocates we respect. They are an advocacy, and I stand by everything I've said. Please do not ping me again if the plan is to prolong the logical fallacy that SPLC is not a SPS. Happy editing! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

How horrible that experts in the law have fought for social justice by using the law. SPLC is cited by so many high-quality sources that the fact that we are even having this discussion boggles the mind. I'm guessing sour grapes is a factor. - MrX 🖋 23:25, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

The references to WP:ONUS are empty wikilawyering here. This is not a question of verifiability in an article; it's a projectspace page. It's been in the page as green for fully two years now. If you think it should change, you can argue that the interpretation of the various discussions of SPLC (or whatever) by the various people who added it, added to it, etc. for a couple years were wrong and make a case for how it should be represented. That's all well and good and could be a discussion here or an RfC or whatever. There is no "onus" on the person who added it years ago to explain why the status quo version is the way it is. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vox Media

Since Vox Media bought New_York_(magazine) (including Vulture) [2] I think the list should be updated now, to indicate that ownership, so that editors apply a suitable level of cautious skepticism to any political statements coming out NY Mag publication as they would from anything else coming from Vox Media.

Specifically I suggest (replace X with Y):
"There is no consensus on whether it is generally reliable for contentious statements." change to
"There is no consensus on whether it is generally reliable for contentious statements. Since 2019 New York Magazine is owned by Vox Media."

Thanks -- 109.79.187.52 (talk) 12:44, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 Done I added round robin see alsos between the entries. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:09, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

That'll do.
Maybe NYMag wont even by influenced by their new owners, but an abundance of caution is appreciated. -- 109.79.187.52 (talk) 15:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

"unreliable sources" vs. common sense

I moved this to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#"unreliable_sources"_vs._common_sense - discussion on whether a source should be used belongs there, not here - David Gerard (talk) 15:16, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Ha. This again. Failing to explain the context too. This is so obviously a reaction to certain people who are on a crusade to indiscriminately delete all references to the WP:DAILYMAIL (and to a lesser extent WP:THESUN). Instead of doing any of the hard work to provide replacement sources, or even making any effort to argue if the facts of the material is actually inaccurate, people are deleting sources and inserting "citation needed" tags.

Deprecated is not a synonym for "delete immediately". -- 109.79.187.52 (talk) 16:15, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Flagging references in Wikipedia articles about the source itself

I looked up WorldNetDaily. It's covered in "deprecated source" flags on all the citations to WorldNetDaily itself. This is clearly a mistaken use of the flag. If the flags are being placed by bots then the bots need fixing. If they're a consequence of the instructions in the Reliable Sources page then the instructions need clarification. 2A04:2140:2001:BC01:5D3F:902C:7A03:1CEF (talk) 09:19,https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources&action=edit&section=17 26 July 2020 (UTC) (sorry, not logged in, mea culpa: JohnHarris (talk) 09:20, 26 July 2020 (UTC))

Why do you believe citations to WND should not be tagged as deprecated in the WND article? - MrX 🖋 10:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I apologize for being so inexplicit, I had thought the reason was transparent. It is impossible to discuss the disputes and controversies relating to the abysmal nonsense the website spouts without providing instances of disputes, with primary examples to back up the underlying controversy. Those primary examples only exist on the site. The citations are therefore needed and there will be several of them. The content of the site is the subject of the article's text at that point. Flagging the website as dubious is a metastatement rather than a warning in this context, and doing so repetitively isn't helping anyone at all - it just makes the page ugly without conveying helpful information. As for it being a matter for the individual talk page (below), no - I raised the issue here because the issue is about the shotgun way the citation is being used, not the article. JohnHarris (talk) 11:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

It seems like a cosmetic issue, but you could simply remove the tags from the article, or discuss it with Newslinger and JzG on the article talk page if there is a dispute. - MrX 🖋 15:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• I feel like this has to be decided on a cite-by-cite basis. An unusable source can occasionally be cited for uncontroversial statements about itself per WP:ABOUTSELF, but there are a ton of limitations on that, and at a glance several of the cites in that article seem to violate its restrictions (being exceptional claims, making claims about third parties, making claims about events not directly related to the source, and so on; it is also used a lot, which you're not supposed to do.) It would be best to find secondary sources when possible in any case, so at best the depreciated tags would just be replaced with secondary-source-needed tags. --Aquillion (talk) 10:33, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that it's a cite-by-cite issue. I agree the cites are to contentious articles which elsewhere would be very sensibly cited as from a disputed source. My point is that in the article I raised, each of those cites is raised in order to discuss the contentious nature of the claims the site makes. As such, the citation is not itself trying to put over the contended information, it's discussing the fact that the source is disputable and giving a representative example to clarify the issue of the site's reliability. I cannot for the life of me see how flagging such a citation as "dubious source" is helpful as opposed to littering. The examples have to be shown and the context makes it clear that the content of the citation is disputed. I'd quite like to see the distinction between these two uses of citation generalized in the instructions on how to use the "disputed" flag. The specific article I brought onto this page to discuss the problem is neither here nor there, the problem itself is what I'm pointing at. JohnHarris (talk) 18:54, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

This is a matter for the WND talk page (where someone else has brought this up). FWIW I agree that either the source shouldn't be used or it should be used without that tag. The only real purpose of that tag is if it's being used in a questionable way, not for basic facts about itself if there's consensus to use it for that purpose. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:03, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

The question is if WND can be trusted for claims about itself. There are cases where it can't, e.g. authorship of articles - they've removed writers from the site previously and replaced attribution with "WND Staff". I don't think I'd trust WND for claims about itself.

Also, this discussion should clearly be on WP:RSN, not here - David Gerard (talk) 22:05, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

300 Entries

With the addition of National Geographic the perennial sources list now has 300 entries. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

— Newslinger talk 00:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)