Talk:Twelve-step program

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Anonymity

It is repeated in the article that only first names are used, and this leaves the impressions that it is a violation of some rule (or tradition) if someone uses their full name in a meeting. Based on my experience, this is not the case. The tradition states that we must maintain anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films. In the "P47 - Understanding Anonymity" pamphlet, in the Question and Answer section, it is suggested to "Use last names within the Fellowship, especially for election of group officers and other service jobs." Several people at the meetings which I attend use their full names, as do I. It allows us to more specifically identify one another for group purposes, and there are times when group knowledge of full names makes it possible to contact someone when they are needed for help. This is up to the individual and is not considered a violation of the eleventh or twelfth traditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.226.164 (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@24.228.226.164: this is a fair point, the best approach would be to find something meeting WP:RS to use as a source for this. - Scarpy (talk) 22:46, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"In twelve-step fellowships, "spiritual awakening" is believed to most frequently develop slowly over a period of time."

There are DOZENS of twelve step fellowship, each with their own literature and unique language describing the highly diverse and subjective "spiritual awakenings" experienced by their millions of members. There is no way to characterize the manner, or pace by which these "spiritual experiences" arrive. Even in the AA Big Book (just 1 12-step fellowship), the main text description of a "sudden, white light" experience is at odds with the "gradual" experience described in Appendix 2. The statement takes one description from Appendix 2, and generalizes it to a broadly held belief, which seems dubious at best.Bryan Hopping ^T 00:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hopping In twelve-step fellowships, "spiritual awakening" is believed to most frequently develop slowly over a period of time. I suppose we could say something like "most frequently, but not always." to clarify. I'm struggling to see what you're objecting too. - Scarpy (talk) 16:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Scarpy How do we know what millions of people in 12-step programs believe or don't believe? The only source listed for this statement is a book written in 1939, so the one source is over 80 years old. In general, this article has an RS problem. The "Big Book" was a book written about 100 individual people living in the 1930s. The BigBook is not a reliable source to describe the situation in 2020, i.e. millions of people involved in dozens of different 12-step programs. It may be a reliable description of where 12-step programs *started* (just AA), but not necessarily what they are today (something much broader). Bryan Hopping ^T 21:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

basic definition

This intro suggests that a "12-step program" is a sequence of specific actions as recommended in the 12-steps. The common meaning of "12-step program" is much broader. 12-step programs all include certain elements: 1. They all hold meetings of individuals seeking help (no experts) 2. At these "meeting", individuals are encouraged to share openly about their difficulties with compulsive behaviors (addiction), 3. Individuals are encouraged to "get involved" in meetings in other ways, "doing service" or other outreach, 5. These meetings often use "literature" that is common to all meetings of that fellowship to further their understanding and practice of recovery from compulsive behaviors, often this literature references "the 12-steps", but some of it does not, 6. The organization structure connected individual meetings to each other is decentralized and loose. These are the common elements essential to all "12-step programs" : the fellowships, the meetings, the steps themselves, the literature, the service (helping to organize & outreach). This article implies throughout that a "12-step program" is a narrowly defined process delineated by actual text of the 12-steps. It erroneously suggests no distinction between a "12-step program" and "the 12-steps." The more common understanding is that AA, NA, GA, etc are all "12-step programs", which are characterized by non-expert, "addicted" members who meet in groups to share/discuss/encourage each other's recovery. The meetings are the central feature, and they are connected to one another through a decentralized organizational structure. Bryan Hopping ^T 01:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You would need a citations stating 1, 2, 3 (I think you skipped 4), 5 and 6.

To your other point It erroneously suggests no distinction between a "12-step program" and "the 12-steps." I'm struggling to see where you're getting this. What you have listed in 1,2,3,5 and 6 are guiding principles and courses of action as stated in the lede A twelve-step program is a set of guiding principles outlining a course of action for recovery from addiction, compulsion, or other behavioral problems. - Scarpy (talk) 16:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]