Talk:Cockney/Archive 1

Bow Bells definition

who first came up with the bow bells definition? with what authority? how valid is it, if for most people cockney = the east of London in general? I wasn't born in East London, but I grew up there from the age of 3, and though I don't live there now (not through choice), I am still, and always will be, through and through, a cockney. Most people who live in the east end weren't born there, and won't stay there, but they are still Londoners. I 'll always feel like I'm a Londoner, because everything that East London is, shaped me into who I am. Where you are born is irrelevant. Where you grow up shapes your personality, views, tolerance, expectations, etc. Someone who is born in Bow and then grows up in Scotland is not a cockney. A true cockney is someone who grows up in inner-city or East London, regardless of where they were born.

It's not Bow, it's St Mary-le-Bow Cheapside. Lion King 16:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

British Classism

The distinctions of class of import to too many Brits was never better expressed than when an Oxford twit of my acquaintance, in noting the several bags of women's clothing kept for sale by a Cockney roommate of mine, snobbishly says "He is such a perfect example of what he is."

Dubious list

There are a lot of very dubious Cockneys in this list. Angela Lansbury, George Carey, Dudley Moore, Maggie Smith, Terence Stamp, Windsor Davis?. Windsor Davies is Welsh FFS! Ok looking at his biography it says he was born in Canning Town. I think we need to be clearer about what's going on here. I can only assume that those listed above were added because they were supposedly born within the sound of Bow Bells. But are we talking about that as a criteria for listing or what? Within what radius of Bow Bells does is count? Dudley Moore was born in Dagenham, a bit far to hear Bow Bells methinks. Mintguy (T)

This BBC page ("Cockneys & Cabbies") says that the East End is "bordered to the west by the City of London, to the south by the river Thames, to the east by the A102 motorway and the river Lea and to the north by Victoria Park and Hackney road. It includes Spitalfields, Whitechapel, Wapping, Bethnal ... Green, Limehouse, Stepney, Mile End, the Isle of Dogs, Poplar and ... Bow", and that "nowadays, people from all of the East End claim the title [of 'Cockney']". Perhaps we could use this as our definition, although I doubt that there is any definition that will please everybody. --Heron 12:58, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

P.S. I would say that the Bow Bells definition is quaint but obsolete, given that London has changed a lot since the bells were installed (1392 or earlier [1]). At that time the City of London was a distinct settlement, but now it's just part of a huge conurbation. --Heron 13:03, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Right, the River Lea and the A102 sound like as reasonable a place to put the "border" as anywhere else. That means that Canning Town and Plaistow are out though. Perhaps we need to define that certain people are Cockneys by this definition and that certain other people, are well-known for having a cockney accent even if they arn't technically Cockneys. The inimitable Arthur Mullard was born in Islington, and surely we must find room for him. Mintguy (T)

How about a subdivided list, with criteria such as "core area", "East End area", "wider area" and "Jamie Oliver area". ;-) Or would this be too much hassle to maintain? --Heron 13:41, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well. As I see it there are two things to deal with. I think listing who was/or wasn't born in the "Cockney geographcal area" (whatever that is) is less important for this page than listing those who have a Cockney accent. After all we have pages for the East End of London, which is perhaps better suited to listing listing non-Cockney speaking Cockneys etc. if we need to. Mintguy (T)

True. We need two sections: (1) Cockney culture (neighbourhoods, pearly kings and stuff like that) and (2) Cockney dialect. Some people belong in one or the other, some in both. --Heron 14:30, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ideal suggestion. Mintguy (T)

I amended several Wikipedia biographies of Canning Towners, and people born in Plaistow, Stratford, Forest Gate etc to note that they were born in ESSEX (i.e east of the River Lea), as these areas have only been Greater London since 1965, but they were all almost instantly reverted by another user back to 'born in London'! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.194.86.1 (talk • contribs) .

Homerton hospital

I think this is within reach of the Bow Bells. Rich Farmbrough 17:45, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anonymous comment

Removed this from the article:

geory carey, vera lynn and dizzee rascal are not cockeneys as the areas thay are from are not within the sound of bow bells. Michael caine who is from walworth south london is however as it is. get it right.

I'm hoping someone might check it for accuracy. --Heron 19:25, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Michael Caine was born in Rotherhithe (so south London). I don't think south London counts as cockney - so I'm going to remove Del Boy from the list as well as his character was set in Peckham. Secretlondon 12:22, 6 September

2005 (UTC)

Of course Rotherhithe counts! Just check it's proximity to Cheapside. Lion King

I am becoming SICK TO DEATH of this EAST END COCKNEY NONSENSE! For a start, Cheapside is East CENTRAL 2 - not EAST- THERE ARE COCKNEYS SOUTH OF THE RIVER TOO!!!Lion King 20:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

SOUTH London? So wherebouts in South London do south london cockneys come from..?

Southwark, Rotherhithe, Elephant & Castle, Bermondsey, Surrey Docks etc. Lion King

Well, I was born in rotherhithe (i now live in camden), and i'm definitely NOT a cockney. I dont walk around usin all that rhyming slang nonsense, and i pronounce my words properly.

Being a Cockney has nothing to do with the way one speaks, it's about where one is born and Rotherhithe is well within the sound of the hour bell of St Mary-le-Bow. Best wishes, Lion King 14:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)P.S. I was born in Guy's Hospital, I don't live there. Lion King

South London

Where is "South" London? There is "south" "EAST" London, and "south" "WEST" London, please tell me where SOUTH London is and what is it's Postcode. Lion King 15:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Um...South London— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.137.233 (talk)

Um...South London 1? South London 5? or South London 32? There is only South East and South West London. Lion King 02:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

?Eh? You're referring to the postcodes not geography or culture. Jooler 07:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC) - The South London postcode used to exist as the article says " NE and S - There are no London postal districts labelled "NE" or "S". These were in the initial division but were later removed as they were considered unnecessary. NE became part of the E sector in 1866 and S was divided between the SE and SW sectors in 1868. These two codes have since been applied to Newcastle Upon Tyne and Sheffield respectively" Jooler 07:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

That's quite correct. "South" London (as a designated area) ceased to exist 138yrs ago. There is only South east and South west London. Lion King 13:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish. The geography and culture of the different parts of London and the use of the terms "North" and "South London" etc.. has nothing to do with the postcode system. The postcodes are not aligned with the boundaries of the London boroughs and SW1, SW3, SW5, SW6, SW7 and SW10 are all north of the River. The postcodes were created for the convenience of the post office only. [User:Jooler|Jooler]] 23:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish? North and South? gor blimey guv, you don't arf know the old lingo eh? Lion King 19:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what this comment is supposed to mean. Jooler 11:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Really? I would have thought it was perfectly obvious.

Right Lion King, so you know there is only South East and South West, and that "South London" technically speaking no longer exists, and yet you ask us where it is and what its post code is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.178.44 (talk)

Oi gevald! Lion King 18:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

And an Oi gevald to you too, son. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.223.218 (talk)

Alaichem sholom. Lion King 01:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeh, duh. Why are wannabe cockneys like you always so annoying? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.116.85 (talk)

I have always believed that nobody from south of the river is a Cockney. Nicander 11:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes this is a very common misconception. If you look at a map of London, you'll see that Southwark is much closer to Cheapside than Mile End or Stepney. Also Bermondsey and Rotherhithe are almost opposite Wapping, just on different sides of the river.

In places like Wanstead where the bells cannot possisibly be heard, they are of course all Cockneys Because (yes you've got it) IT'S GOT AN EAST LONDON POSTCODE, just like Walford E20! Not all Cockneys come from East London. Be lucky, Lion King 20:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

eeek

"soft 'R'; replacement of 'R' with 'W' as in 'Mewwy Cwistmas'"

Sorry this is pure Mockney as per 1940s films (or Jonathan Ross and others who can't pronounce their Rs). Ever heard Bob Hoskins or Michael Caine say 'Mewwy Cwistmas'? I think not. Jooler 21:46, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually this is in a lot of fictional cockney from Charles Dickens right up to EastEnders - but its use is not just fictional, it is a common (but optional) feature of cockney English.DavidFarmbrough 1:50 (BST) 6 September 2005

I think some R's are replaced with W's, but not in the way that Merry Christmas becomes Mewwy Cwistmas. Its just the way Londoners pronounce certain words. For instance - 'sort' becomes 'sawt', 'door' becomes 'daw', 'short' becomes 'shawt' etc.

The article talks about dropping leading H's; what about adding them at the start of words when they shouldn't be there. Is that a recognised characteristic? -- Ralph Corderoy 01:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Dick van Dyke

To give him as an example of anything close to a cockney accent it laughable. "Schtep in thyme Maurie Poppins" - I don't think so. Mrsteviec 18:08, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

It's already mentioned in this article under "Famous Cockney performances". It was meant to be cockney and it is famous for beign bloody awful. Jooler 18:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah yes - he had slipped in there twice. Thanks. Mrsteviec 19:05, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Negative Conotations

I feel somebody should make a point about the negative associations that the term Cockney can have, especially in my experience in the north of England. It is used to refer negatively to anyone from the South East, why do you feel it necessary to delete this?

Because you have not explained it or tried to reach consensus, which is what WP is about. I've lived up north too, and never heard this usage, so it is definitely questionable. Even if not, it also should not be at the start of the piece, which should be the main meaning. A footnote would suffice. The North is quite a large area, whereabouts did you hear this usage? Tarquin Binary 13:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It mainly comes from people slagging off the stereotypes of southernerss that are portrayed in Eastenders I suppose, perhaps you are right in not having it at the start of the article. The term cockney is a negative word originating from meaning a pampered townsperson as in "cock egg", like a sheltered hens egg, "ney" being the old english plural for eggs I think. I'm from Sheffield and I have to say I frequently come across the term being used in a negative sense towards a southern person, although I'm no way myself trying endorse any regional prejudices I found the Northern Stereotype page regarding the North of England incredibly negative, outdated and typecast and I feel that other peoples opinions of "Cockneys" and other South Easterners should be voiced, negative or otherwise.

OK, it's more to do with you not explaining the edit, I guess. I've no problem, as a 'Cockney', with adding that usage, but I would put it as a footnote, maybe, and explain that it is definitely heard in Sheffield - maybe others can chime in, if they have heard it in their locale. I've never heard it in Liverpool, and I actually queried my friends from York over the weekend, who did not recognise the usage at all.

Re: the Northern stereotype page. Will go and look. I certainly would not endorse this sort of thing at all with respect to any region, so maybe that page should be refactored. Also, just personally, I don't think of the 'North' at all - at the minimum I'd break it into Northeast and Northwest - specific counties and cities better... Tarquin Binary 17:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I was one of those, although not the first, who reverted the 'derogatorily' comment, so let me explain why. I'm prepared to believe that some northerners use the word Cockney as a blanket term of abuse for southerners. However, just about every national and subnational group considers itself superior to its neighbours and enjoys mocking them, so this means that probably every ethnonym in the world is used as an insult by somebody, somewhere. That said, I wouldn't object if the northern usage were noted further down the article. It was really the undue prominence given to the comment by putting it right at the top that seemed unfair to me. --Heron 20:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

As a former southerner now living up north (see my profile), most people in the north have about as much knowledge of what a cockney is, as a Londoner would about Geordies. However, that does not mean to say they are right, as generally anyone with half a degree in common knowledge knows at least that Cockneys has something to do with London; and it tends to be really thick, bitter, belligerent idiots from inbred shitholes such as Barnsley and the like that seem to bark on about how anyone south of Coventry is a cockney, generally in the same sentence as how everyone down south is so miserable. Okay, change the record fellas. Wikipedia is a record of FACT not PREJUDICE/IGNORANCE. Apologies for shouting. -- superbfc (31 January 2006, 00:31 UTC)

That's funny. Down here in the East End, crass stereotyping (you don't run into it much, but still...) would be that Northerners are miserable whining gits and that we are all chirpy cheery Cockneys what can triumph through all adversity, innit? Not that I would endorse such pig-ignorant views, of course - I concur with your analysis (except a good friend of mine is from Barnsley, but then she moved away years ago...). Anyway, I think you're right, this entry should be delimited by common sense and it'd be nice if it stuck to the main meaning. Tarquin Binary 01:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all the comments and responses, I pleased people feel so passionate about the subject, it's been very insightful into regional stereotypes. I suppose it's human nature to asume that we're all better off where we are and that all outsiders are inferior ((?) although that sounds a bit harsh), I guess generalisation is human nature and broad sweeping prejudices just help people allienate each other further although londoners must understand, although Lonodn is the capital there is an incredible amount of London bias in all forms of British media (although this is obviously to be expected beign the centre of media), for example the ethnocentric NME, which patronises bands for sounding "like something from the home counties and not what we expect from the north" and in football new reports for example southern teams are much more likely to take priority in order over other teams, especially London clubs. Also to the majority of people outdside London all that east end west end issue is absolutely insiginificant

Old Fashioned Classification

This Bow Bells stuff is a very ancient way to define cockneys. Nowadays most people see a cockney as someone from London. -anon

Perhaps, but most Londoners do not see themselves as Cockney. Jooler 17:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright & Watcha!

Does anyone know where the Boundary lies for using the greeting "Alright" or "Watcha" ?? I tend to think that North/North East London generally use "Watcha" or "Watcha cock" and South West London stick with "Alright" (alwhite) IsarSteve 21:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• Pretty much all of West London (both North West and South West) use alright. I'v never heard anyone say watcha in my entire life.
  • well I´m sure Watcha was used in Tottenham & Edmonton... but that was in the last century!!! IsarSteve 20:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

WAS watcha ever actually used? Sounds like something you'd hear on only fools and horses...NWC

Of course. My Grandad (who is 96) still says "watcha" Lion King 17:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. But does anyone still use it? I'd assume its very outdated as you dont hear it these days. Well, among modern young people. NWC 18:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

By and large it tends to be older people that use it - your'e right, it's not something that younger people would use or really even know or hear, except maybe in old films or from my Grandad- it makes them laugh, but not in a nasty way :) Cheers, Lion King 18:58, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

What a shame it´s dying (died) out.. but that´s the way things are.. language moves on..I´m in my late 40´s and watcha was used in my youth by both young and old.. IsarSteve 20:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright (awite) sounds alot better though, in general. Watcha sounds mockney. NWC 21:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Strange though..if you look through Lion Kings talk page you´ll notice he also uses wotcha (nearly the same word) as well.. so it´s not only his 96 year old grandad.. IsarSteve 21:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes but Lion King IS mockney...NWC 21:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Oi, watch it mate, I was born a goal kick away from Cheapside, and if I was a mockney, I'd be pratting on about personal attacks. Instead I'll see you outside The Duke Of Albany tomorrow at 3pm eh? Wotcha! Lion King 21:59, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

´ere what a lot of BOFs we are..sitting at home on a Saturday nite! IsarSteve 22:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Listen son, i aint takin no sh*t from some mockney fella like yourself. P*ss off and rabbit about your old china's or the apples and pairs or whatever it is you mockneys do! NWC 22:11, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL Lion King 22:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Don´t get aht yer pram! IsarSteve 22:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

OK cockneys bruvvas (i dont consider myself a cockney, but apparantly i technically am...), all personal insults and fisticuffs outside south london pubs aside, does anyone actually use the term "me old china" anymore?NWC 22:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

probably only Lion Kings 96 year old grandad! lol "me old dutch" also died out IsarSteve 22:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

As it happens that one isn't part of grand pa pa's terminology - your'e thinking of Kathleen Harrison! Lion King 22:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I think its pretty cool that some of the rhyming slang terms still exists today, even if some died out. PS - B*llocks, i keep forgettin to sign me posts!!!NWC 22:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

seriously now.. it only needs people to use it (rhyming slang), in the way it was meant, to keep it alive. The trouble is, it was a working class thing... and I read somewhere, most people now think they are middle class, what you call Mockney IsarSteve 22:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Spot on ! use the old slang and mockneys haven't got a clue what your'e saying - bring it full circle.Lion King 23:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)P.S. got work to do now have fun. Be lucky, Lion King 23:02, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm lost...are you saying that most people consider themselves to be middle class..or that most non-cockneys/londoners think that cockneys are middle class? :\ NWC 22:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

sorry that wasn´t very clear.. I think Rhyming slang has lost its "core-users" ... and is therefore dying out. Most people(& londoners) these days consider themselves middle class therefore are by definition Mockneys. IsarSteve 23:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

But a mockney is a non-working class londoner who affects the accent of one. So doesnt that just make them cockneys who wish they werent...if that makes sense. NWC 23:10, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

you´ve cornered me now, and you´re right about the working class wishing they weren´t. I personally don´t have a problem in saying that I come from a working class background but many do.. this has also lead, in my opinion to less use of Rhyming slang. My mother used the slang Jam-jar very often, always meant when the vehicle concerned was expensive. People don´t use it anymore because it´s not "cool" or doesn´t fit in with their aspirations.. IsarSteve 23:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

See, i know exactly where your coming from on this. I too dont have a problem with saying im working class - in fact, im proud of it. I think another factor which has lead to the gradual phasing out of rhyming slang is the amount of foreign culture affecting modern young people, if you know what i mean. For example, i live in london, and other than terms like 'rabbit' meaning talk, and 'two bob bits' meaning the shits, rhyming slang isnt used at all. The London slang page has alot of good examples of foreign words which are used today by young people as slang. I'm rabbiting, i'll stop. :) NWC 23:24, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

rabbit on - see User Talk:NWC IsarSteve 23:36, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Possible copyvio

The "Cockney Culture" section may be a copyright violation. I posit this as the source of the material: <http://www.barryoneoff.co.uk/html/the_cockneys.html>. See the section titled "The old place is changing...".

En Anglais?

Why is it written "fɔːʔi ˈfæːzənʔ ˈfɹʌʃɪz ˈfluːˌəʊvə ˈfɔːnʔənˌiːf". No one can read that. Should be written "Fawty fahsan' frushes flew ova fawt'n eaf", or something like that.

Yes, I agree. I bet most people cannot understand the weird alphabet that is used for pronunciation on here.—Johnbull 16:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It's called International Phonetic Alphabet and is used all over Wikipedia. The pronunciation spelling you propose is not accurate enough since people with different accents would pronounce it differently, while the IPA transcription represents sounds themselves. --logixoul 20:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Inhabitants or Natives

I think it should say "natives" of London rather than "inhabitants". Since it can be argued that someone who was born in and grew up in London and then moved out is still a cockney - whereas somebody who was born and grew up outside of London and then moved into it can't.

Chas and Dave

I've removed

• Chas and Dave (Chas Hodges and Dave Peacock; Cockney pop rock band, born Edmonton and Ponders End)

Chas and Dave are Londoners but if they're from Edmonton and Ponders End then they can't be considered Cockneys. Much too far north. BTLizard 09:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Cockneys are white.

Why do people find it so hard to accept that cockneys are white english or white british born within the sound of bow bells. I gurantee if you ask any bengali or black resident in the East end they would say they themselves are not cockneys. Cockneys are white british.

No, theyre not. Many black residents of the East End consider themselves cockneys. Deeds-123

Hahahaha a cockney is a white working class inhabitant of any were in the boundries of the East End. Black haha most residents in the east end are either white or bangladeshi. Cockneys are English. simple as that.

Geographic & part critique

Hi, I moved the note on Chatham docks, that was under the section on the dialect to the section on 'area'; although I'd argue that later title is contested.

A number of points for consideration:

• You can either treat 'cockney' as a dialect, or people born in a specific area - not both (At least, not both at the same time ... someone doesn't suddenly produce a glottal stop, and decide they can no longer live in Kent). A dialect has an extent of common usuage, not a sudden dropping off at small geo boundaries, like the Lee, or Thames (indeed, people for a long way around the geo core, will often speak a mixture of received english and dialect).
• I had read that the vast majority of 'city residents' in the middle ages spoke a form of cockney dialect, it's likely to be the vernacular of Chaucer - although he could switch between a number of languages with fluency. So, that extent changes over time.
• If cockney is a dialect, then the 'white criteria', some are arguing for, is plainly ridiculous. Yes, as a group white working class people are more likely to use the cockney dialect, but equally a young black kid normally speaking patois amongst their peers will drop into cockney amongst a group predominantly speaking cockney dialect. Same goes for a lot of Asians brought up in East London. It's called use of appropriate register, and we all do it to aid communication and identity.
• rhyming slang, double-speak, or market talk is just that, it's associated with the markets, and is an adoption into the cockney dialect.
• similarly, the variety of foreign words adopted by cockney shows the effect of immigration, and shows that it is a vibrant dialect that continues to change and adapt to the modern world.
• cockney is gradually being replaced throughout London by 'estuary english'. This appears to fall somewhere between cockney and received pronunciation; and also shows the extraordinary influence of Australian soaps, being typified by the rising sentence. (The sentence rises at the end, in 'english' this indicates a question).

I think there's a lot of good stuff within the current article, but our confusion about the term, and to what it is applied, or whether that's a who, or a where, even a when .. is confusing to the reader.

I think, given time, I could come up with some references, but most linguists seem to like to concentrate on the 'great vowel shift', and less contested dialects!

I hope that helps Kbthompson 09:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Bow Bells Earshot

Formerly it included the City, Bethnal Green, Stepney, Shoreditch, Whitechapel, Finsbury, and Hackney -- Quite a bit missing here, worth adding? Deeds-123 14:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Audio sample?

Is there an audio sample for the (authentic) dialect?

Koala man 00:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)