Talk:Media coverage of Bernie Sanders/Archive 5
 | This is an archive of past discussions about Media coverage of Bernie Sanders. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Naked 1RR is out, enforced BRD is back in
A while back I lightened the restrictions on this page from enforced BRD to just 1RR. This, due to consensus among admins that, as a general rule, we start with the basic restriction, and only if they prove inadequate add either the enforced BRD or the Consensus required enhancements. Anyway, I am getting the sense that 1RR is not really working out here, so I'm reintroducing enforced BRD. Now, in the case of violations —as for your various Arbitration enforcement requests— I recommend submitting these at AE, not at the more chaotic, threaded AN/I. El_C 00:09, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
1RR Reminder
Connor Behan, please revert your most recent edit, as it violates the 1RR restriction on this page. --WMSR (talk) 17:54, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- WMSR, can you explain why this statement of fact is not sufficiently corroborated by a Rolling Stone columnist when the same source is used for several other parts of the article? If you have an issue with all of them, that is the purpose of the AfD.
- SashiRolls, can you suggest a wording for the AM Joy segment that avoids whatever problems you were hinting at earlier today? The fact that you can pull this on MSNBC and not be fired hasn't generated the 1,000 articles I might've hoped for. But it clearly generated a notable backlash that fits in nicely with the paragraph that already covers the Warren-Sanders dispute. Connor Behan (talk) 18:08, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- I can't. That source (and also Common Dreams) really shouldn't be anywhere in the article. I will say that the facts presented are WP:UNDUE, as the purpose of this article is not to list and dissect every time Sanders received negative coverage. Including content from op-eds, even if attributed, is problematic, because they are more likely to point out negative coverage as opposed to neutral or positive coverage. --WMSR (talk) 18:53, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
If you "can't [sic]" explain why my source is not sufficient, then it should go back. Grammar aside,I am clearly not trying to add every piece of negative coverage. But I am trying to add this one because (1) Sanders took the rare step of demanding an apology regarding it, (2) it's sourced to an author already used in this article, (3) it fits the topic of a paragraph we already have and (4) any reasonable person can see that it's blatantly dishonest... the kind of stuff you find on RT. Your claim that we shouldn't use WP:BIASED sources is not the usual standard. For many contentious topics, the most reliable sources are also biased. We satisfy neutrality by using a wide range of them that represent all non-WP:FRINGE points of view. Connor Behan (talk) 00:16, 30 January 2020 (UTC)I can't
was in response to your question (can you explain why this statement of fact is not sufficiently corroborated by a Rolling Stone columnist when the same source is used for several other parts of the article?
). As I stated in my answer, the reason I can't justify its inclusion there is because I can't justify it anywhere in this article. It is true that WP:BIASED states,Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject
, but this is only true when multiple points of view are expressed in an article. That is not the case here. You said yourself thatWe satisfy neutrality by using a wide range of them that represent all non-WP:FRINGE points of view
, yet every partisan source cited in this article is advocating the same POV. --WMSR (talk) 00:56, 30 January 2020 (UTC)- I agree that the point of view defending the media is barely represented here outside the academic sources. Sources that could help change this are a Washington Post article which calls Bernie's critique bogus and a Guardian article which asks if it's Trumpian. Are there other sources along these lines that have been pushed out? The disputes that appear most active right now focus on a Clinton Super PAC which has little to do with the topic of media bias or lack thereof. Connor Behan (talk) 03:10, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- Connor Behan, I admire your desire to compromise, but the answer to the issue of putting too much weight on opinion from one side is not to add more opinion from the other side. That would create an argument to moderation, which we should absolutely avoid. We should be relying on facts, not opinions, in this article. --WMSR (talk) 03:17, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about opinions. I'm talking about facts that are most heavily discussed in opinionated sources. And in this case, WP:NPOV and WP:DUE do require us to balance one side with the other. Tired proseline like "X said Sanders was right, Y said Sanders was wrong" would not help the article but there are a lot of things that would.
- Joy Reid interviewing a guest who claimed she could "read" Sanders" is a fact.
- Sanders being asked about wealth inequality at least five times in 2016 and then ignoring or forgetting about this is a fact.
- Sanders referring to a political journalist as a "gossip columnist" early in his career is a fact.
- Sanders still using Amazon platforms despite his criticism of Bezos and his holdings is a fact.
- There's also some statement about him pranking CBS and AP which I had trouble parsing. If the AfD results in "keep" again, I think this is the best direction for this article to take. From the history I've seen, there have been relatively few attempts to improve the neutrality of this article through additions rather than deletions. Connor Behan (talk) 17:09, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- All of your points are true, but very little of that has to do with media coverage of Sanders. The article isn't about Sanders's responses to questions posed by members of the media, nor is it about his views of the media, nor is it about his criticisms of Amazon. Turning the article into a WP:COATRACK won't really help either. If the Reid incident wasn't notable enough to be covered anywhere besides opinionated sources, I would argue that it's not notable enough to be covered here either. --WMSR (talk) 17:14, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- You say, "The article isn't about Sanders's responses to questions posed by members of the media, nor is it about his views of the media..." So you are saying that the article should not cover his responces? Why is that? Gandydancer (talk) 23:03, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- All of your points are true, but very little of that has to do with media coverage of Sanders. The article isn't about Sanders's responses to questions posed by members of the media, nor is it about his views of the media, nor is it about his criticisms of Amazon. Turning the article into a WP:COATRACK won't really help either. If the Reid incident wasn't notable enough to be covered anywhere besides opinionated sources, I would argue that it's not notable enough to be covered here either. --WMSR (talk) 17:14, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about opinions. I'm talking about facts that are most heavily discussed in opinionated sources. And in this case, WP:NPOV and WP:DUE do require us to balance one side with the other. Tired proseline like "X said Sanders was right, Y said Sanders was wrong" would not help the article but there are a lot of things that would.
- Connor Behan, I admire your desire to compromise, but the answer to the issue of putting too much weight on opinion from one side is not to add more opinion from the other side. That would create an argument to moderation, which we should absolutely avoid. We should be relying on facts, not opinions, in this article. --WMSR (talk) 03:17, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that the point of view defending the media is barely represented here outside the academic sources. Sources that could help change this are a Washington Post article which calls Bernie's critique bogus and a Guardian article which asks if it's Trumpian. Are there other sources along these lines that have been pushed out? The disputes that appear most active right now focus on a Clinton Super PAC which has little to do with the topic of media bias or lack thereof. Connor Behan (talk) 03:10, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I can't. That source (and also Common Dreams) really shouldn't be anywhere in the article. I will say that the facts presented are WP:UNDUE, as the purpose of this article is not to list and dissect every time Sanders received negative coverage. Including content from op-eds, even if attributed, is problematic, because they are more likely to point out negative coverage as opposed to neutral or positive coverage. --WMSR (talk) 18:53, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Because this article should not be a WP:COATRACK. It is, at least nominally, about how the media covers Sanders. Nothing more. A sentence about his responses may be appropriate if his response to specific media coverage was notable, but that should not be the focus of the article. The example above does not satisfy that criterion. --WMSR (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
- That's an essay and not a very good one at that. There is no good reason to not include Sanders' replies to what has been written about him if it has a RS. Gandydancer (talk) 03:35, 31 January 2020 (UTC)