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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 06:09, 17 January 2020 (Archiving 2 discussion(s) from Talk:Media coverage of Bernie Sanders) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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RfC: Content by "Paste magazine"

Should the following content by "Paste magazine" be included? If so, which version: Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:24, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Version A:

  • Shane Ryan from Paste Magazine reported that 48 hours after Sanders' declaration to run, the Post published four negative articles about him, two of which were by the same author, Jennifer Rubin. Rubin had criticized Sanders as a dated, unpopular candidate, predicting that his launch would be a resounding failure; the next day Sanders reached record fundraising numbers. Rubin continued to disparage the senator's success in what Ryan called, "a great big point-missing whiff, and a lame attempt at self-justification after being made to look like a fool a day earlier."[1]

Version B:

  • Paste Magazine criticized The Washington Post for publishing four negative opinion editorials about Sanders, including two by conservative columnist Jennifer Rubin.[2]

Survey

  • Should not be included. If it's included, then B is the better version. - This should preferably not be included, because it's (1) by a non-RS, (2) incredibly petty (who cares that WaPo published four negative op-eds about Sanders over the course of two days?), (3) this is not a RS so it's unclear whether WaPo also happened to run positive or neutral pieces about him during this period, and (4) because it's a BLP violation: Rubin does NOT describe Sanders as a dated, unpopular politician whose campaign launch will be a resounding failure.[3][4] If it's to be included, then B is better than A, because it's short, to the point and free of the BLP violation. Version A claims that this is a "report" by Paste magazine but Paste magazine is not a RS; it should be attributed as an opinion. Version A is also incredibly long, obscures that the author is criticizing WaPo for publishing op-eds ("articles" may make readers think these are news reports by WaPo), and includes some in-the-weeds tangential criticism by the author of one of Rubin's op-eds. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:32, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
What makes Paste a non-RS? Cause it has been sited by CNN and the Chicago Tribune, while having won an award by the latter. Seems like a reliable source to me. You ask why negative posts by a mainstream publication is important in an article about media coverage? Why are spiders important in the Arachnophobia. The answer is pretty clear. Certainly when the article isn't focused on the fact it happened but the speed and number of articles with relation the fact it happened before. This article is about media coverage. Stop trying to downplay all media coverage.--WillC 14:22, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
Wrestlinglover, It seems that Paste is highly factual as well according to https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/paste-magazine/. I am not a fan of some sources, but I try to be neutral in my assessment. The data seems to show that it's a factual source. As for it being biased, I'm pretty sure there's a Wikipedia guideline that allows them if they are attributed. Correct me if I'm wrong on that last bit. MikkelJSmith (talk) 14:45, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
Sources can be biased and still be reliable too according to RS.--WillC 14:52, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
MediaBias/FactCheck is not a RS: "There is consensus that Media Bias/Fact Check is generally unreliable."[5] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:54, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
Snooganssnoogans, I didn't know that. MikkelJSmith (talk) 14:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
This doesn't demonstrate that Paste is unfit for Wikipedia.Rafe87 (talk) 17:21, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
You've completely misused the RS rule. Are you saying that Paste magazine is not a reliable source for the things that Shane Ryan says? RS is and never has been a blanket. If Shane Ryan prints in Paste that he thinks something, then Paste is RS for that. The only RS argument there would be whether Paste is known for making up fake people and posting articles under their name. Even still, Paste is completely RS for the fact that Paste printed it. The rest of your points fail by the same token. Whether or not Rubin said that, Ryan said she did. Well, there's also point 2, and it's completely irrelevant. Seriously, "who cares" has to be the weakest objection to inclusion of content on WP I've ever seen. - Keith D. Tyler 18:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


  • A mix of the two. - I think this is a false choice to be honest. There are more choices than these two. I think it can be trimmed but that maybe Version B is a little too trimmed. The first thing we can do is add that they are opinion pieces. As for Paste, mediabiascheck rates them as highly factual. So, I do believe, that the fact that the opinion piece goes against what was actually happening makes it kind of noteworthy. So, after looking at the source, I think something like this could work : Shane Ryan from Paste Magazine reported that 48 hours after Sanders' campaign launch, the Post published four negative opinion pieces about him, two of which were by columnist Jennifer Rubin. Ryan argued these columns were a way of manufacturing consent. - MikkelJSmith (talk) 22:15, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
    Snooganssnoogans what do you think? MikkelJSmith (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
Absolutely not. (1) This is not "reporting". (2) The piece is a petty superficial analysis in an obscure outlet, which would not belong on any Wikipedia page and would be easily removed if not for the gatekeeping that is unique for this page. There is nothing notable about a major news outlet featuring op-eds against a candidate. If the content is to be included (which it should not be), version B gets to the point. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:00, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
Snooganssnoogans, woah, I'm sorry to say this, but you don't need to sound condescending. I was merely trying to help. I have no dog in this fight and I've even thanked you multiple times for your edits. I've also added some RS to the page (NYT, Politico, ABC News, CNN & Business Insider). In this case, I was just giving my opinion that's all, since I think the option I gave still follows WP:DUE and I attributed the claims for the source. MikkelJSmith (talk) 23:35, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Delete it - I have asserted that Paste is not a good source for a subject like this. It's a music magazine. I don't see other newspapers or news programs routinely citing Paste in their coverage of politics (WP:USEBYOTHERS). With all due respect to Shane Ryan, I simple don't find his attack of The Washington Post, and specifically Jennifer Rubin, to be substantive. This is not the type of material we should source for anything in a serious encyclopedia. - MrX 🖋 19:19, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
MrX, even though I changed my vote, I would be in favour of trimming it honestly -- especially since another editor on the noticeboard mentioned that Paste was an RS. I'm partial to what I wrote before by the way, since it fits better on the article. In case you missed it, this is what I mentioned : Shane Ryan from Paste Magazine reported that 48 hours after Sanders' campaign launch, the Post published four negative opinion pieces about him, two of which were by columnist Jennifer Rubin. Ryan argued these columns were a way of manufacturing consent. - MikkelJSmith (talk) 15:39, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
I propose that the above be named "Version C". (consider: "reported that within 48 hours of Sanders' campaign launch...")🌿 SashiRolls t · c 09:37, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
@MikkelJSmith2: Right now, the RSN RfC is trending no consensus. In my view, shortening the wording does not fix the issue that the source article is little more than a swipe at a respected newspaper by a devoted Sander's supporter. It's not very objective and I don't think it belongs in an encyclopedia.- MrX 🖋 13:35, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
WaPo might be respected on Wikipedia, but outside of it, many left-leaning people have been wary of it since its acquisition by the world's wealthiest person, and its countless negative stories against Sanders during crucial time windows. This last point is something that people are constantly overlooking. For instance – in statistics, they could theoretically reach 50/50 positive/negative or inclusive/exclusive coverage of him by covering him at 60% positive/inclusive at most times, and at 10% positive/inclusive on the days after debates and before important primaries. (And I don't think I need mention right-leaning people's respect for WaPo.) Selvydra (talk) 12:10, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Status quo option (keep) I'm changing my vote due to another editor showing me that Paste is actually an RS on the RS noticeboard. - MikkelJSmith (talk) 13:53, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Remove it - Followed the RSN thread here. This sort of subject has a lot of reliable sources writing about it. A music magazine doesn't carry enough weight with such a body of literature available. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:01, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Change to C. Consider shortening it from A (though B is a little too devoid of context) – the version (C) above by MikkelJSmith2 seems like a decent compromise. As incendiary as Rubin is against Sanders (and sometimes Warren), the Wikipedia account of it needn't be such. I would support B for this incident if it was then augmented with more examples of WaPo's or Rubin's coverage of Sanders. Selvydra (talk) 10:06, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Keep A. It is relevant to the article topic and there is nothing wrong with version A. - Keith D. Tyler 18:45, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Change to C, a significant improvement over A, or remove. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 09:37, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Support C as it is more encyclopaedic than A. Don't oppose leaving it out though. --BEANS X2 (talk) 11:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
  • C. Article needs to be a lot shorter to remain readable. I think C can be further shortened; i.e., is it questionable that the "four negative opinion pieces" is a fact? If not, remove the "according to" and move it closer to the claim of manufactured consent, the attributable opinion. I'm all for raising the bar for RS but I don't think this is the battle. There is the reliable, reported fact of WaPo's output and then there is Ryan's attributable opinion, both of which should be kept to a minimum unless itself the subject of secondary source commentary. czar 04:17, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: during the RfC the sentence in question was removed from the article leaving the reference stranded only in the lede. I have removed the reference in the lede which summarizes nothing in the body while we figure out what to do about it. [1]

References

  1. ^ Shane Ryan (February 21, 2019), "The Washington Post, Picking Up Where They Left Off in 2016, Runs Four Negative Bernie Sanders Stories in Two Days", Paste, archived from the original on October 21, 2019, retrieved December 1, 2019
🌿 SashiRolls t · c 11:20, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Altering lead

FYI I've change the lead to this:

Media coverage of Bernie Sanders has been largely unbiased according to multiple studies, however some alternative media have alleged that a bias against Sanders in the mainstream media does exist. Their allegations primarily concern Bernie Sanders' 2016 and 2020 presidential campaigns.

I've changed the first sentence in accordance with MOS:BOLDTITLE and MOS:FIRST: The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what, or who, the subject is. The subject in this case is "Media coverage of Bernie Sanders."

What the coverage of Bernie Sanders is, is largely unbiased according to reliable, independent sources. If this article is really about Sanders Campaign's allegations, then the article should be moved to Bernie Blackout or whatever they're calling it. – Anne drew 03:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Please dont put that in Wikivoice, independent sources you mean the corporate media? It is what this article is about. Also what are these "multiple studies" that say the coverage is unbiased? We have only one study and another study by FAIR that says the media is biased.--SharabSalam (talk) 03:59, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
This is the heart of the problem behind this article: there is a constant push to turn this article back to what it originally was - a poorly written soapbox. We should absolutely be writing in what you call "Wikivoice" and we should absolutely use "corporate media" sources because what you consider to be "corporate media" are reliable sources in the eyes of most Wikipedians. Additionally, we have multiple studies cited in the article showing how Sanders' coverage was overly positive compared to other candidates. If you don't want to write in a "Wikivoice" and ignore reliable sources, you are free to do so on your blog or any other website, but please don't do it here. — Chevvin 12:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
We have multiple "non-corporate" studies, and they didn't find bias against Sanders. There was a Harvard study about his coverage in 2016 that didn't find any bias against him. For the 2020 campaign, we have studies by Northeastern University's School of Journalism, which showed Sanders having a more positive media sentiment than both of the other leading contenders, Biden and Harris.
I'm all for documenting the allegations of bias, but we can't just regurgitate COISOURCE talking points in the first sentence and call it a day. – Anne drew 22:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
That is not a neutral point of view lead. That is objectively stating right out that this article is lies and a marketing tool. It is not handling this article as a national discussion in media beyond just the Sanders campaign. To start an article with "is unbiased" is basically going against every source in the article that points out that media coverage is not equal among the candidates and that several sources have published multiple negative articles in small timeframes. Yall forget, that NPOV goes both ways.--WillC 07:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
The lead cannot actively take a stand on this issue. It cannot say it is biased nor can it say it is unbiased. That would be an automatic violation of NPOV.--WillC 07:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
It cannot say it is biased nor can it say it is unbiased. That would be an automatic violation of NPOV. That is a misunderstanding of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. We must weigh our sources according to their reliability, as not to present a false balance. Wikipedia recognizes that some sources are better than others.

While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity.
— WP:NPOV

The Trump Campaign often alleges that the mainstream media is biased against him. We cannot have an article called Media coverage of Donald Trump that starts with:

The Donald Trump campaign and alternative media have alleged that the mainstream media in the United States is biased against Donald Trump, primarily concerning both his 2016 and 2020 presidential campaigns.

Instead we must look for scholarly sources to see whether or not they support this claim. – Anne drew 16:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I believe the fundamental issue is that the first sentence of an article must simultaneously:

  1. Define the subject of the article (in this case "Media coverage of Bernie Sanders")
  2. Summarize the content of the article

Right now this article is article is written from the POV of the Sanders Campaign, with actual studies of bias against Sanders delegated to the "Response to criticisms" section. I now realize that this article used to be called "Media bias against Bernie Sanders", and it shows. – Anne drew 16:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Business Insider cites NYT analysis as proof that media is under-covering Sanders relative to Biden and Warren, and suggests Sanders' chances are being played down in the press:

Sanders gets less media attention that other top-tier candidates like former Vice President Joe Biden and Sen. Elizabeth Warren, according to an analysis from The New York Times. Though some of this is likely due to Biden's name frequently being referenced in relation to the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump, it could also reflect that the media is discounting and perhaps underestimating the Vermont senator.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-could-be-most-underestimated-2020-candidate-2019-12

In addition, Politico has published stuff on Sanders that has been widely lambasted as anti-semitic.

Wikipedia has yet to mention the article in this entry, apparently because editors here are approaching this subject from a pro-media perspective.Rafe87 (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@MrX:, This is where I found the reference. I've read it referred to by quite a few authors in addition to those cited here. Could you explain your reasons for deleting this content in a new section?
In May 2019, in an op-ed pubished in JTA, Andrew Silow-Carroll commented on the brief controversy regarding Politico's caricature of Bernie Sanders in "The Secret of Bernie's Millions".[1]
There were a couple articles in Haaretz, at least one in the JP, as well as mention from Halper in one of her three articles, not sure which... there's also Jacobin, TYT. After looking into the story, I'd found a lot of outlets covered this, that's why I added it.🌿 SashiRolls t · c 14:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Andrew Silow-Carroll (May 28, 2019). "Politico's 'cheap' shot at Bernie Sanders". Jewish Telegraphic Agency. The text of the original tweet touting the piece, since deleted, read "Bernie Sanders might still be cheap, but he's sure not poor.". A Jew, banknotes, that word "cheap" – how is that not anti-Semitic? That's what critics wanted to know. At first, I wouldn't take the bait...

🌿 SashiRolls t · c 14:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

SashiRolls I guess I would have to read the other articles to be convinced that this is noteworthy. The content itself is very thin. It doesn't explain why Silow-Carroll's opinions are important, or how it fits into the overall context of this article's subject. The whole thing was based on an awkward tweet. How is this encyclopedic? It seems more coatrackish and trivial. - MrX 🖋 15:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
I guess Halper refers to it obliquely in the 2nd line of the 2nd para of this article. Searching the article for "Zionist" also suggests this is not an isolated issue. I chose this article not because it was first, but because it seemed honest and well written (and also because he's a well-known journalist/editor-in-chief). In fact, you've slashed two editors in chief today (Jewish Week & The Nation). such bold, so cutting room floor. :) 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 15:48, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
@Anne drew Andrew and Drew: I completely agree the the lede as it is constitutes a flagrant NPOV violation. I restored your rewording of the lede and it has since been reverted again. @Rafe87: if by pro-media perspective you mean prioritizing reliable sources, then yes, editors should certainly approach their work with such a perspective. WMSR (talk) 17:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
There's no united "reliable source" view on this subject. Editors like you are cherrypicking the views they wish to promote as the only correct one.Rafe87 (talk) 17:44, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
There definitely isn't a consensus on "media not being biased according to reliable sources" as to change the entire lede to reflect it – especially not in such a straightforward, nuance-free fashion. Time and again, even sources concluding that media bias allegations are largely unfounded still make concessions that Sanders does suffer from it in some ways (see the 'Response to criticisms' section). If there's a consensus, I argue it is this: Sanders has benefited from positive coverage on average (especially from leftist media), but the low amount of coverage he's received has at the very least canceled out that benefit. On top of that, the negativity of it has spiked before important election days – e.g. the 16 negative WaPo articles in early March. So, as you can see, it's hard to draw simplistic conclusions on the topic, meaning it should be treated with nuance and care.
I should also add that the reason behind the name change discussion (that led to "bias against" -> "coverage of") was to address title NPOV concerns – not to move the goalposts for the article's contents. Several editors raised concerns that this change would act as validation for changing the tone of the article over time to, "Media coverage of him is fair & allegations of bias wrong, unless proven otherwise." This backdrop should be kept in mind when using the new title as grounds for major changes in the content or tone – particularly as the merits of the existence of a page on media bias against Sanders were already litigated in the lengthy AfD that did not result in article deletion. Selvydra (talk) 23:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

To be clear, the result was "no consensus", which means the article may be put back up at AfD in the future as the community did not definitively rule on the merits of this article's existence. Slywriter (talk) 01:10, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

The "unbiased" lead was a plain violation of "Prefer nonjudgmental language" section of NPOV. It was taking a stand on the issue that isn't supported by a clear majority nor supermajority of sources.--WillC 14:16, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia. Research studies are preferred as sources over political opinion pieces. – Anne drew 23:12, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
The version you've just inserted is a clear violation of WP:IMPARTIAL. Saying "X says P, even though Z says P is not the case" is WP taking a stance in favour of Z and against X, by implying P to be incorrect. The studies are already described at length in the following paragraph and there's no need to insert them into the very first sentence. — cmonghost 👻 (talk) 04:01, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
Those same studies say the coverage was positive but still say he received less coverage. I wouldn't call that strictly unbias. Regardless, it still takes a judgment on the situation which violates NPOV.--WillC 10:06, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
@Wrestlinglover: How does this version violate NPOV?? Sanders and alternative media say X while multiple studies say Y is an impartial description of the situation. It is "neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view", as prescribed by WP:IMPARTIAL.

The studies are already described at length in the following paragraph and there's no need to insert them into the very first sentence

I see. You just want your preferred POV to be the only thing mentioned in first sentence. – Anne drew 13:34, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
It is clearly in violation of no judgmental language. It is taking a stand in an issue when sources are conflicted and there is no clear majority. The only way a majority is seen is by having an impartial view on the subject and thus it would be making a judgment in language. The current lead as least isn't trying to make a judgment but is clearly stating the subject of the article. Saying it is clearly unbiased is not stating the subject but is trying to convince the reader of a position in the first sentence. That isn't NPOV.--WillC 05:02, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
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