Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2020

Too early

In my over 10 years of being a Eurovision wiki editor we have never allowed a future contest to have an article before the next one has taken place.

Please see the following:

• Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Eurovision_Song_Contest_2019.
• Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2015_May_29#Future_Eurovision_Song_Contests

Why would this year be any different? Grk1011 (talk) 18:43, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Is that true? The 2019 article was created months before the 2018 contest took place, and earlier than this time last year. LexPro4 (talk) 18:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

I think it's fair to include firm details which I've largely trimmed the article to, but per WP:Speculation, we cannot include things like "If x country ends up joining the EBU this year then they could theoretically join the contest". That is not encyclopedic even if there is a source for it. Grk1011 (talk) 20:07, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Understandable, and I completely agree. LexPro4 (talk) 20:08, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

However, with regards to the list of countries competing in 2019, the list does not make any claim that any of the countries will participate in 2020 and explicitly states that they have made no announcement. This list was used in the lead up to both the 2018 and 2019 contests in their articles, so I would argue that this is different. LexPro4 (talk) 21:05, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Exactly that. —Dimsar01 ^Talk ⌚→ 21:10, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I suggest taking a step back. What does the presence of the list do for the reader? If it's give them an idea of who could participate based on who has in the past, then it clearly goes against the policies about speculation in WP:FUTURE articles. Grk1011 (talk) 21:22, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Firstly, stop acting like you're the boss here as you're not; no one is. Secondly, if you cannot understand the point by yourself, I'll help you: It shows the reader which countries participated (or will participate at the moment) in 2019 so they can see quickly which ones haven't make an announcement regarding their participation or their non-participation in the contest. As I said, you can't imply something in WP. This is the line, read it carefully: "The following countries will participate in 2019, but there have been no reports regarding their participation in 2020". Where do you see a mention that the following contries will return? I suggest you take a step back and let this authoritarian behavior aside. I also note that you came here out of the blue and tried to indirectly delete the whole article without even checking its sources (and I'm not talking about the Active Members section as this was clearly against WP:CRYSTALBALL).—Dimsar01 ^Talk ⌚→ 21:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I came here when I stumbled upon the page while doing categorization work for the project, as I do periodically. It seems like every year the same exact discussion is back and editors expect a different result. I'm sorry, but it's really taxing and frustrating. To have to rehash things that were already settled 5+ years ago through large discussions with editors outside of our project.

If there is no assumption that they will return, what is the point of the section at all? Can't a reader just look at the 2019 page to see which countries participated? If you include something in the article that leads to someone making a logical assumption, that's exactly an implication. Grk1011 (talk) 22:03, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Denmark

This DR article [1] confirms that DMGP 2020 will take place, it says nothing about Eurovision. I think we should wait, even though its likely that Denmark will participate. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 14:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ahmedo Semsurî: If that is true that mean Finland and Sweden also haven’t confirmed their participation then but I believe we should add them unless source say that they have not confirmed their participation Sammyham84 (talk) 21:58, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

@Sammyham84: It becomes OR if we start interpreting the statements, and with Eurovision 2019 we did wait with confirming some countries' participation despite their national final being confirmed. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 09:16, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ahmedo Semsurî: should Sweden and Finland be removed then because it is the same case as Denmark Sammyham84 (talk) 15:09, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

@Sammyham84: I will check the sources and personally I believe they should be removed if it's the same case. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

@Sammyham84 and Ahmedo Semsurî: All of these national selections are used for the Eurovision Song Contest. Otherwise, they're not a national selection. So, everything's reverted unless announced that these countries will not participate. —Dimsar01 ^Talk ⌚→ 10:43, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@Sammyham84: Fair enough but I have a feeling other users will remove them after this page becomes more current (when ESC 2019 is done) --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 11:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

It is completely the other way around. Unless a country has stated they will compete, they cannot be included. They don't need to prove to us that they won't compete.

In this case I am going to add Spain and Malta because they also confirmed their national selection Sammyham84 (talk) 15:50, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

But have they said they will compete in the Contest itself? That is really the only criterion for inclusion. Grk1011 (talk) 02:32, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

@Sammyham84 and Grk1011: In Eurovision, you don't do a national selection if you don't participate. Of course, there are exemptions like the San Remo Festival or when the national selection is a talent contest like Xfactor. But contests like Melodifestivalen, Dansk Melodi Grand Prix or UMK are specifically for Eurovision and won't happen otherwise like Lilla Melodifestivalen for JESC. —Dimsar01 ^Talk ⌚→ 09:17, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

It is misleading and becomes OR if we start interpreting articles that state nothing about Eurovision. Why the rush? Why can't we just wait for an official Eurovision confirmation? --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 09:31, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ahmedo Semsurî: As I said, a number of national finals like Melodifestivalen take place only for Eurovision and therefore any confirmation that they're going to happen means that the country will participate. Other talent shows like X Factor Malta do not as they're not connected with Eurovision (and that's why I also moved Malta down to the Other countries section). —Dimsar01 ^Talk ⌚→ 12:36, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

We have a higher level of scrutiny in an encyclopedia and we don't really have any need to be the first to report on speculation that a country may participate. Sure, having a national final scheduled normally means the winner will participate in the contest, but that is not always the case. I don't see the issue with waiting until there is a formal source that announces their participation. Likely a reliable source will take the national final announcement as proof and that's fine, as long as it's the source making that connection, not us. Grk1011 (talk) 14:38, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

While I agree that the article does not explicitly state that Denmark will participate in 2020, the DMGP has been used every time it was held to select the ESC representative., Every time Denmark did not participate in Eurovision, the DMGP was not held. It is thus most likely that DMGP means Eurovision participation for 2020. Nontheless, a confirmatory source should be added once available. Lordtobi (✉) 12:10, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Spain

There is no source to confirm Spain's participation. The article that is used in the article as a source only confirms that a further season of Operación Triunfo will be produced, but there is no mention of the talent show being used again as the platform to select the Spanish entry. Actually, the article mentions that the next season may premiere later than the two previous seasons (anytime between September 2019 and June 2020), so it may not be possible to create a link with the 2020 Eurovision Song Contest. ESC is not the main purpose of Operación Triunfo, in the last two years the selection for ESC was a side competition in the context of the series. Sar2de (talk) 17:11, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I totally agree with this. The source given for Spain is not adequate. Yoyo 360^{Wanna talk?} 11:42, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Now that the text says "The following countries have expressed their provisional interest in participating in the contest or confirmed that their expected national selection process will take place:" I think Spain can remain there. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 12:03, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like Spain have expressed their intend in participating in 2020, they only expresed their intend to hold some national music competition, which in its 14 years of existence has only been used four times to draw the ESC representative. Lordtobi (✉) 12:06, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I think we have a confirmation[2] --> TVE prepares its own Song Festival for Eurovision 2020 --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 12:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Just ignore this. Apparently a fools day joke. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 13:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2019

pleas add Utrecht with location Jaarbeurs to te tabel. source: https://nos.nl/artikel/2285364-songfestival-komt-naar-nederland-een-peperdure-megaklus.html Jgo2003 (talk) 20:29, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done. Lordtobi (✉) 07:05, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Meppel etc.

Please remove Meppel from the list and the map. The cited source is a satirical website with no truth. Meppel is a small town without any facilities to host the Contest. Also, you wrote that Meppel had not proposed a venue yet. If you would actually read sources, you would know that the source mentioned a proposed venue. But once again, it's a satirical website. Apart from citing serious sources, you should also actually read them.

Also, please add Zwolle to the map. That city is seriously interested and it's in the list, but you forgot it in the map.

The notion about frontrunners is very ambiguous and unnecessary. There are no frontrunners as every city has an equal chance. If you want to go by criteria such as venue, airport, hotels and willingness to host, you MUST include Maastricht as a frontrunner. They are very keen on hosting the Contest, and they are also the most clear about it in the media. All of the Netherlands knows that Maastricht is serious about it, whereas in the case of Amsterdam it was more of a sidenote by the mayor. Rotterdam was clearly (prematurely) interested in 2014, but this time they're not very vocal about it. But they did express interest. So that's how ambiguous this frontrunner thing is. If there's one frontrunner, it's Maastricht. But better just remove this sentence. Hhl95 06:35, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

The front runners are outlined by the source, not us. Meppel has been removed. Zwolle was already on the map, it seems. Lordtobi (✉) 07:05, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for Meppel and Zwolle. I didn't see Zwolle on the map when I wrote it. Maybe Meppel 'blocked' it as it is very close to Zwolle. I think the source is not reliable enough for any information other than which cities are interested. As a Dutch person, I read several mistakes there (such as the population of Rotterdam, which is over 600k instead of nearly 600k, and Arnhem could perfectly rely on Schiphol airport rather than Weeze). The frontrunner remark is just out of the blue and not supported by anything. The statement would make sense if Amsterdam and Rotterdam had a favourable position with the broadcaster, but so far nothing has been said about that. The simple notion of them being the largest cities (with everything that comes with that) can't be regarded as a solid ground. So even if you got a source making this statement, I would suggest to remove it. After all, it's not a professional source either. The authors are just Eurovision fans and no professional writers or journalists or whatsoever. If we give unsupported (as in arguments, not sources) statements like this a stage on Wikipedia, we are contributing to building a hype around certain cities, and I think we should stay away from that. Hhl95 03:10 21 May 2019 (UTC)

's-Hertogenbosch in North Brabant

The city of 's-Hertogenbosch is interested in hosting the 2020 contest with the Brabanthallen as its venue

Shiruba98 (talk) 15:54, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Please remember to source your edits when inserting them into articles. Adding unsourced information and then posting the source to the talk page is not the most efficient way to get information in. Regards, Lordtobi (✉) 16:58, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Armenian HoD

So the Armenian HoD have confirmed participation... on his instagram.

• Sad to realize that our journey has come to an end. Happy to have so many new friends, exciting emotions and an unforgettable experience. Our team and Srbuk worked tirelessly to bring this performance to life and we hope you enjoyed the 3 minutes of fire and passion on stage!🔥 I want to thank everyone for their support and positive words. Eurovision is as unpredictable as ever, but that’s one of the reasons we all love and watch this show. See you all next year![3]

So, the question is how do we tackle this? --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 20:05, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there's any problem in using Instagram as a source. It's coming directly from the HoD. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 20:08, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

We had a similar case with YT and someone removed the it (an interview with the Hungarian HoD[4]). --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Surely enough one major Eurovision blog (Wiwibloggs, Eurovoix, ESCXtra, Eurovisionworld, ...) will cover this in the coming hours/days, then it can be sourced easily. Lordtobi (✉) 20:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I've noticed that Eurovoix write confirmation articles (Austria and San Marino) using the same sources we have after we've added them. So, if we just add Armenia, I have a feeling that an english article will pop up soon. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I personally believe that we can put Instagram posts as a source but until a more reliable source comes out Sammyham84 (talk) 23:41, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I'll add the source for now, while it should be changed as soon as an article is out. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 01:16, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Enschede

Enschede is another city that is interested in hosting: https://www.tubantia.nl/enschede/vliegveld-twenthe-wil-het-songfestival-binnenhalen-we-moeten-groot-durven-denken~aba913b7/?fbclid=IwAR1veCmGNheh2lrkLWdwaW1gBK5i0NPITCsVSGp_kiyDy-f-Lxf0N19J2dk. The proposed venue is Hangar 11 at Twente Airport, with a capacity of 10.000. Hhl95 06:07, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I have added this, along with the note that the local government is not the one presenting this idea, but the director of the facility.—♦♦ AMBER^(ЯʘCK) 11:24, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Johan Cruijff Arena not available

The Johan Cruijff Arena will not be available for the ESC in 2020, either because of the football season still running or for preparations for UEFA Euro 2020. I will delete it, please don't re-add it. Bas1411 (talk) 17:44, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Bas1411, you provided no source. The sources used in the article say that these are the venues the cities try to win the bid with. Either venue can be taken for one week in either case. Lordtobi (✉) 18:02, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Sources needed!

People, can we please add sources to every venue, city, etc.? Because someone ‘trolled’ with Maastricht; I’ve added the correct numbers plus source. I’d like it very much if others would do the same. 「Robster1983」^{☞ Life's short, talk fast ☜} 19:25, 21 May 2019 (UTC)