Talk:Twelve-step program

The 12 steps is half a program

@Harizotoh9: Re: your edit on August 24th, where you removed "while also attending a support group which collectively follows principles called The Twelve Traditions." with the comment "Closer to sources". The common theme that all 12 step programs have, is that members attend meetings where the the twenty-four basic principles of the program are read at every meeting. If you look at the link above, you will notice that the book from 1953 is now in the 77th printing and was written by Bill W, who appears in the first sentence of this article, this is a hard source to beat. Since those two documents are the definition of what the wide variety of programs have in common, it needs to be mentioned in the lead. The 12 steps by themselves (as the article's lead currently reads) is only half of a program. The the other half of the program requires regular attendance at 12 step meetings, meetings which follow the twelve traditions. If you look at Alcoholics Anonymous this is in the first paragraph, if you look at Narcotics Anonymous this is in the second paragraph of "Narcotics Anonymous program", if you look at Overeaters Anonymous this is in the second paragraph. I think there's some confusion here between what the program is called and what the actual program consists of. While I'm not attached to any particular wording, I am attached to describing a complete program. Please fix your edit. Dougmcdonell (talk) 17:12, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Dougmcdonell:The topic we are discussing here is what does the phrase "12 Step Program" mean? I think we need to just find some sources and cite them, we could dialogue forever..... I have begun researching this and adding it in.

I would agree that most people think of and write about a 12 Step Program as- both working the steps and going to meetings.

With that said, one source, the AA Big Book says, "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery," with no reference to meetings or the traditions. Sethie (talk) 18:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Did some work, I think your point is well taken, we just need to find some sources which describe exactly what is a "Twelve Step Program." Sethie (talk) 19:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Sethie:You might be in unfamiliar territory here, you have used a medical article as a reference for spirituality. Further on the topic of reliable references being very difficult, a group does not exercise authority over how individuals work their own program. In terms of how the group functions, there is no authority outside of a group, as the groups are instructed to follow their own group conscience, this is covered by traditions 2, 4 and 9. So while an organization such as aa.org frequently provide support to group members by providing literature, meeting locators etc., they are not in a position of authority and do not govern how the program works in AA groups. No fellowship is in a position to define other twelve step programs in any detail.

A simple description that does apply to all programs is found at List_of_twelve-step_groups#Programs_patterned_after_Alcoholics_Anonymous Fellowships in this section follow reasonably close variations of the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, it has read that way since 2008. A good description of this is found here[1], "It lays out the principles by which AA members recover and by which the fellowship functions." The information is all in the article already, just not in the lead, maybe it sounds too simple to be a complete program. It may be difficult to comprehend a worldwide movement guided by twenty-four basic principles, with no leaders and no detailed instructions, that's the way it is. If you think you have a reliable reference that goes beyond describing the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, then you will be outside the definition of a Twelve step program. Dougmcdonell (talk) 01:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't disagree with what you are saying about what a "12 Step Program" is.

I am saying- let's find reliable sources that back what you are saying. That sentence you quote is unsourced in the article.... it being there since 2008 doesn't give it any weight at all.

I will say that I am not enjoying such statements as "You may be in unfamiliar territory here" and "It may be difficult to comprehend a worldwide movement guided by twenty-four basic principles." No I am not unfamiliar, and no it is not hard to comprehend.

I took what you wrote, and began finding sources to back it. I like and agree with what you are saying, and as time permits, will find more ways to source it.Sethie (talk) 02:52, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Are there not 36 principles? 12 steps which allow us to know ourselves 12 traditions that guide us through how to live productively and in peace in society 12 Concepts of service which keeps us in touch on a daily basis with the higher power of our understanding.

Meetings are a "tool of the program." I agree they are important but still are just considered a tool. Messenger of Recovery (talk) 18:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for the reminder, service is part of the program. I mentioned the meetings and traditions as GIANT glaring omissions but you're right, there is more missing here. Dougmcdonell (talk) 19:27, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

We have an entire article on the Twelve Traditions. The problem with the Concepts is that they vary quiet a bit from fellowship to fellowship, so including them in a general form here would be misleading. The Steps very a bit too, but this is mostly covered in the article on the List of Twelve Step alternate wordings. - Scarpy (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi Scarpy, when I compare 12 tradition wording between AA and NA I get - replace AA with NA, replace alcoholic with addict, and replace drinking with using. Are those three changes what you're referring to when you say "they vary quiet a bit" or are you thinking of something else?

The list of Programs_patterned_after_Alcoholics_Anonymous is by definition "reasonably close variations of the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" and I'm unaware of any change in wording by the groups on that list that alters the meaning such that it is "misleading". If you have an example of that, I'd be interested. I'm assuming that you're against mentioning anything other than the 12 steps in the lead, I see that approach as a complete failure even to outline a program. The lack of a program description is an issue on wiki because of groups that use some the twelve steps but not the 12 traditions like Gamblers Anonymous and Celebrate Recovery, neither one is using the "12 step program". Dougmcdonell (talk) 07:38, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

To clarify - the points I'm responding to are (1) there is a "GIANT glaring omission" of the Twelve Traditions, which is not true because they have their own article; (2) that the Concepts are an omission, they're not included in the article on Twelve Step programs because they there is more variation between the Concepts used by the organizations that use them than the Steps or the Traditions. - Scarpy (talk) 15:11, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Sources

Found a couple of great resources for sources for this and other related articles [[2]] and [[3]]. Sethie (talk) 16:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I particulary enjoyed the silkworth reference with the "OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE OF SEAMEN"

I notice that neither the 12 traditions nor the weekly meetings are included in "the program" Dougmcdonell (talk) 02:49, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Anonymity

It is repeated in the article that only first names are used, and this leaves the impressions that it is a violation of some rule (or tradition) if someone uses their full name in a meeting. Based on my experience, this is not the case. The tradition states that we must maintain anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films. In the "P47 - Understanding Anonymity" pamphlet, in the Question and Answer section, it is suggested to "Use last names within the Fellowship, especially for election of group officers and other service jobs." Several people at the meetings which I attend use their full names, as do I. It allows us to more specifically identify one another for group purposes, and there are times when group knowledge of full names makes it possible to contact someone when they are needed for help. This is up to the individual and is not considered a violation of the eleventh or twelfth traditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.226.164 (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)