Talk:Cocktail

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The contents of Rimming sugar was merged into Cocktail. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. For the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

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old fashion

Do you know if the original reciepe of the Old Fashion? Is it with soda? Seltzer was introduced nationally in 1883 so probably not considering the old fashion predates this. But what do I know, i'm not even valuable enough to contribute without being reverted.

The Old-Fashioned was a name which arose in the second half of the 19th century when the variety of cocktails began to expand and it became useful to distinguish the most traditional presentation of a cocktail (spirit, a small amount of sugar or simple syrup, and a dash of bitters, perhaps garnished with a twist of citrus peel) from its newer relations, many of which incorporated additional ingredients. The addition of seltzer may have come about through bartenders making this classically small (~2 ounce) drink in too large a glass, and wishing to "lengthen" it so as not to appear to be cheating the customer on quantity.MetaGrrrl (talk) 07:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

cocktail - old fashion: the true origin of the cocktail and old fashion, explains in great detail about these drinks, including ingredients. If I remember correctly, it's Laird's apple brandy, curacao, maraschino liqueur, brown sugar, water, angostura bitters. You are correct in calling it an old fashion and not old fashioned, fashion was the name of the horse the Laird family rode in the 1850s when the drink was created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7704:2D30:B8ED:78CB:2A4D:D4FF (talk) 15:39, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I call shenanigans. - Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:57, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You obviously didn't read the book. He's right. This entire page needs to be edited.199.80.74.66 (talk) 13:50, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So be bold and go ahead and do it. And then I will correct you. But I'm pretty sure David Wondrich knows his stuff. Definitive resources on this topic include Imbibe! and The Old Fashioned. Or just look at what Wondrich posts on The Daily Beast. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 18:54, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The same wondrich that suggested that the cocktail comes from sticking ginger in the asses if horses? Seriously.... Really?

You are him! He doesnt know shit and is the laughing stock among the industry. How old are you now wondrich? 70? Youll be dead soon and who will protect your fake references then? Ill be here long long after your gone and ill be out of law school by then too. I assure you if i dont do anything else in life I will male sure all your false information is removed.

Etymology 2

What about the the pony etymology: on horse auctions, mixed-blood horses were marked by binding their tail upward just as a cock tail (so-called cocktailed ponies). The notion of mixing things together was then taken from horses to drinks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.88.114 (talk) 23:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This makes the most sense, considering it is one of the earliest and indeed, many drinks were named after horses during this time frame (horse's neck, stinger, old-fashioned, and the cocktail itself (half breed racing horse). To be fair though, this was a mystery over a hundred years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.73.10.230 (talk) 11:32, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is absolutely correct and has been confirmed by cocktail historians. The word cocktail appears well over a 1000 times in literature before 1806 or even 1798. Why does the first printing matter anyway? and why would you write something in the position to be corrected in the future, like "first". Why not say "as early as". Makes more sense. The word cocktail 100% derives from the term for the half breed racing horse. this should be added and accredited properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7704:2D30:8884:6771:587:3535 (talk) 03:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The reference to high-spirited horses seems the most likely of all the possible origin stories and is, as of this year, the one considered most likely by David Wondrich, the preeminent historian of all matters relating to such beverages. Here's the quote: ″And I actually know where ′cocktail′ came from, pretty solidly. It’s in the book. Ginger was used in the horse trade to make a horse stick its tail up. They'd put it in its ass. If you had an old horse you were trying to sell, you would put some ginger up its butt, and it would cock its tail up and be frisky. That was known as “cock-tail.” It comes from that. It became this morning thing. Something to cock your tail up, like an eye-opener. I’m almost positive that’s where it’s from.″ ^[1] That origin story fits very well with contemporaneous use of "ginger" as a slang term. MetaGrrrl (talk) 03:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Robert Simonson (April 6, 2015). "David Wondrich Has Finally Figured Out the Real Origin of the Word Cocktail". Grubstreet. Retrieved December 27, 2015. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

Did you read what you said? Please read cocktail old fashion: the true origin of the cocktail and old fashion. The cocktail was derived from cocktail horses that were recently imported after the repeal of the 1783 import act which banned the importation of cocktail horses. Now knowing this, what's more possible, ginger in the ass, or a repeal of an act that banned former presidents and notable figures from importing their beautiful racing cocktails. So can we please remove any David Wondrich reference given his wildly inaccurate information thats being taken as truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7704:2D30:B8ED:78CB:2A4D:D4FF (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Which is more likely?

Someone stuck a piece of ginger in a horses ass and somehow derived the word cocktail from it? or

It was the repeal of the 1783 import act that allowed the first generation of cocktail horses to be shipped to virginia in 1784 as illustrated in the aforementioned "cocktail - old fashion" book. I can't believe this is even being discussed. 199.80.74.66 (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a proper citation to that source? Even just the author's name would help. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What is the "cocktail - old fashion" book?? What is the author and the proper title? Link us to it, even. I'm pretty sure there is nothing in The Old Fashioned by Robert Simonson that disagrees with us. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 19:02, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

METAGIRL'S CITATION IS CORRECT. This has been thoroughly researched. I don't care what you heard when you were a bartender or what your grandpappy told you. -- Doctorx0079

It wont let me publish the link to that cocktail book. Type "cocktail old fashion herpin" is the author. Im sorry, but hes completely right. You should read the book and rewrite this entire page. Youre wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:c67a:b5d1:dd52:21ef:c6b4:3e5c (talk) 05:21, 28 September 2018

That's not a proper citation. Give me the title of the book and the author's name and I'll take a look. Otherwise this is just noise. Kendall-K1 (talk) 11:46, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

the title is "cocktail old fashion" author is herpin, it was a free download idk anymore — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:c6e1:bdc1:a87f:c0e0:e4d:cac (talk) 17:46, 29 September 2018

Definition of cocktail

The current definition in the article—"any beverage that contains three or more ingredients if at least two of them contain alcohol"—is highly problematic as it excludes many drinks widely understood to be cocktails, for example the Piña Colada to name one off the top of my head. I recommend this be changed to that from Oxford Dictionaries—"An alcoholic drink consisting of a spirit or several spirits mixed with other ingredients, such as fruit juice, lemonade, or cream"—or something similar.

It'd be good to add"bitters" into that list of other common ingredients to honor the earliest definitions—spirit, sugar, bitters—distinguishing 'cocktails' from other drink types (e.g. fizzes, smashes, etc.) in the days before the term expanded as an umbrella encompassing all mixed drinks with alcoholic ingredients.

This is hardly the only problem in this page, but it'd be a good start to fix it. (And perhaps here I am making a note to my future, less-busy self.) MetaGrrrl (talk) 03:10, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The article already mentions this as one possible etymology. How would you change this? SQGibbon (talk) 21:44, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't doubt the use of the word "cocktail" when referring to horse races (the OED makes this clear). That there is a connection between cocktailed horses and the drink seems entirely reasonable to me and that theory is already present in the article. Why you think "Laird's Applejack Cookbook" from 2002 is the only reliable source on the topic is a bit puzzling. What do you base that on? Plenty of other reliable sources have not reached the same conclusion.

We are not here to determine the truth. We are only here to report what reliable sources state. There is no consensus from experts on the etymology of the word with respect to drinks. If you believe your source is reliable (and I don't see why you do) and that its etymology is sufficiently different from the others then by all means go ahead and add it to the article.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Wondrich's theory is likely to be correct at all but he is a reliable source and that's why we include it.

And please, calm down. I did not ask my question looking for a fight. I personally don't care one whit what the outcome to this is. All I care about is making sure we follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines and that one person doesn't push their opinions all over Wikipedia. SQGibbon (talk) 20:57, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For those of you who are confused by the above discussion, as I was, there were more comments but they have been removed by their author. They are in the page history if you are curious. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Someone else made this change, and I have fixed it to be a complete sentence with a proper ref. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:30, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] Robert Simonson (April 6, 2015). "David Wondrich Has Finally Figured Out the Real Origin of the Word Cocktail". Grubstreet. Retrieved December 27, 2015. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

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