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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Modernponderer (talk | contribs) at 14:10, 7 July 2018 (→Template:Television ratings graph: reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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July 6

Template:Print version

Non-functional template, not maintained in years. One mainspace transclusion. eh bien mon prince (talk) 11:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Welcomeg2

I do not see what distinguishes this welcome template from the many others. Seems redundant to me.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  01:07, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Senior Living

Template to serve a non-existing subject. The Banner talk 11:33, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 00:36, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Television ratings graph

Per Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 June 22#Template:Happy! ratings, the consensus there and across the Television WikiProject is to no longer to use this template in articles, as multiple deletion nominations for these templates continue. -- AlexTW 08:21, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Frietjes: Pinging as the nominator of the above discussion. -- AlexTW 08:22, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So should the statistics be removed from the articles too? Christian75 (talk) 12:40, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia isn't here for "very nice". -- AlexTW 15:12, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@AlexTheWhovian: So should we remove all mention of viewers from the articles? Christian75 (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How does that relate to Wikipedia not being here for "very nice"? -- AlexTW 03:20, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because the ratings for every episode is nice to have too. Christian75 (talk) 19:21, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they are. But they provide encyclopedic value, and they're not just there to be nice. -- AlexTW 02:30, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Even when the ratings are steady with little change? How does a graph display popularity? There are so many more factors involved than how many people watch it. -- AlexTW 15:12, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can't speak for others with great certainty, but i believe a reader will find steady and fluctuating ratings equally interesting. In the case of the general public, the Nielsen ratings determine the popularity of a show per MOS:TVRECEPTION and i think this graph is the best way to display it. Much better and more comprehensible than a ratings table or a column in the episode table. However, i agree with Brojam that there should be some guidelines regarding its use. -- Radiphus 15:34, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it just shows initial ratings numbers, that's it. No share/rating, no DVR ratings, nothing like that. That's what we have episode ratings templates for. There's no need for multiple ways to display the data, and we should go with the one that provides more information. -- AlexTW 15:39, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, because you have pages with the ratings in the episodes table, ratings table and then a graph, that's frankly a bit too much. People can see the ratings on the episodes table and then scroll down if they want a bit more detail with DVR data. Graphs do little to improve on what's already on a page as people can see if the numbers have gone up or down compared to previous weeks. Esuka323 (talk) 16:52, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep: I think having a graph for each episode's live viewership on a series page is of value, because it shows the reader the trends in viewership better than any other format. It's clear, the seasons are colour-coded, and there are episode numbers. I think it works perfectly on a page like Empire, as it clearly shows an increase in viewers for the entire first season followed by a rapid decline. However, including it above a ratings table for a show that has 8 episodes is just redundant and dumb. I think that a viewership graph should only be created if the show has more than one season or actually has a trend that can be seen. If a series stayed at 10 million viewers an episode for 50 episodes, then I don't see a point in a viewership graph. But what do we define as a trend? Also, how would a graph fit and/or be readable in a series with 300+ episodes? Should one just not be added if there are too many episodes to fit? I think there are some questions that need to be addressed. If we're including the viewership graph template, which I think we should in some form, honestly the only thing that should be removed from the template is the ratings chart below the graph. Listing every episode's viewership on one chart is definitely excessive. These numbers are easily accessible on a season's ratings table and easier to follow there than a massive chart full of numbers. Keep the graph, remove the table! Heartfox (talk) 04:35, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: If this template was removed, would readers not construct their own using the Episode Table's Viewer column? 86.152.18.132 (talk) 09:49, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Most pages have an episodes table with live ratings and a ratings table with live and dvr ratings. It would be simple enough to see how a show is trending without a graph triplicating information already on the page. Esuka323 (talk) 13:29, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 00:36, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep: The number of delete !votes in here is extremely concerning for the future of Wikipedia in general. This is exactly the type of visual template that readers would be most interested in. Most of the commenters in question are of the opinion that said readers should be forced to actually read as opposed to giving them a much more convenient source of information, which is so ludicrous it barely even deserves a response. Modernponderer (talk) 07:04, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend you remain a bit more civil in your posts. Wikipedia is not here for interesting, it is here for encyclopedic. So, yes, the site is here for information to read. Do you suggest we delete the prose content? -- AlexTW 07:07, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is here for the readers, and for absolutely no other reason. And no, I would be against deleting the prose as well, if only for maximum accessibility. By the way, "most interested in" means "I am looking for this information", not "I like this information". Modernponderer (talk) 07:21, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No. Wikipedia is here to build an encyclopedia, we are not here for the readers, no matter what you personally believe. Quote: A major pillar of Wikipedia is that it is both an encyclopedia and a community of editors who build it, and The expression "here to build an encyclopedia" is a long-standing rule [...] It has been written at various times into the Five Pillars of Wikipedia. We are also not here to duplicate information unnecessarily, so if you're not against deleting the prose, then we are therefore duplicating information unnecessarily. -- AlexTW 07:29, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Unless you are arguing for deleting all charts, diagrams, and other visual aids from Wikipedia, your argument makes absolutely zero sense. And by the way, that link does not contradict me: we are building an encyclopedia, yes – but for the readers, not ourselves! Modernponderer (talk) 07:33, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Other stuff exists" is not a valid reason. Simply because one article includes graphs, doesn't mean they all should. Hence, that argument makes zero sense. See the examples given in that link, and you'll see this is a textbook example. And even if nobody accessed or ever read Wikipedia at all, we would still be here to build an encyclopedia. Alongside that, can you reason the duplication of the information? -- AlexTW 07:49, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHER is the worst essay (NOT policy or guideline, so it has zero actual validity) on Wikipedia. It has "allowed" clever editors to override global consensus on long-settled issues simply by claiming that the other, already discussed pages don't matter here. WP:CONLEVEL IS actual policy!
Really, deletion discussions like this one should be prohibited altogether. If you want to discuss what types of visual aids should be allowed on Wikipedia, go to the policy page for that and open an RfC. Modernponderer (talk) 08:32, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion on the essay is noted, but it still remains quoted extremely often, and thus is valid. If you disagree with the essay, take it to their talk page. As for consensus, there is no consensus to use this template, so that applies just as much. Anyways, it seems you have nothing more to supply to this discussion, other than demands and complaints, correct? You've not stated anything further on why this should be kept. What should be prohibited are !votes like "STRONG keep" or "STRONG delete" - do you think it has more weight to the closing editor or something? It does not. -- AlexTW 08:56, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I'm sure you know quite well, starting a talk page discussion like that for an essay is futile – unlike policies or guidelines, essays are generally not deleted even if they do not receive the support of the community, by their very nature.
Put simply, my support for this template comes from the fact that it provides an objective method of comparing ratings across a show that is tedious to perform from the original tables, and cannot be done in article prose at all (because a less-detailed summary is more subjective). Modernponderer (talk) 09:40, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now, you could have just said that, instead of all the fluff. However, the template does not take into account any other form of ratings (share/rating, DVR ratings, etc), nor is there any requirement for such an objective method, especially when the data is already listed in other tables outside of the episode table in a much more detailed format. -- AlexTW 09:45, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Episode table is to blame for that. The only column for ratings there has a default heading of "Viewers (millions)", and the adjacent Template:Episode list reflects this in its instructions as well. In my view, the encyclopedia would be better served if you directed your attention there instead of trying to delete this.
(Though DVR ratings are generally counted in overall ratings, at least from the sources I've seen for various shows.) Modernponderer (talk) 09:57, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, personally, I'm not a fan of the viewers on the episode table either, as that too displays only one set of viewer information. So, we have the viewers in the episode table, the viewers in the graph, and the viewers in {{Television episode ratings}} that includes the shares and DVR ratings; the latter is the only one we really need to list viewers, as there's way too much duplication going on. However, that's a discussion for somewhere else that would require an extremely solid consensus, as it would require a mass change to almost every transclusion of {{Episode table}} (6,400+) (and {{Episode list}} (10,400+)), rather than the fewer transclusions of this template (~220). Luckily for me, I'm able to do that thing where I can focus on multiple things at once; i.e. that and this. -- AlexTW 10:05, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was not even aware of the other template. There is definitely an argument to be made that either one or the other tabular form should be used – probably that specific one as it has so much more info. But none of this is an argument for deleting the only visual template! Modernponderer (talk) 10:40, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now you do, and it's used in pretty much every US television article. Furthermore, we also have {{Television season ratings}} to duplicate viewers a fourth time! And yes, it does have more information, which is why it should be used over this one, if we're trying to avoid duplication. A visual template is nice, sure, but it's not necessary to understand the series or to list information. If a visual graph is actually required to display trends, EasyTimeline is still available, which is what this template/module actually uses. -- AlexTW 12:28, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hold on, so you're suggesting that editors recreate the template (no doubt poorly) in each individual article where it is "needed"? Do you not realize this goes against the entire purpose of having templates in the first place? Modernponderer (talk) 13:26, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Did you know that the graphs were originally displayed with EasyTimeline? I guess not. It was either that or SVG files. You've learnt something new today. The template was simply created to have some easy-of-access in which to display the graphs. However, as per other editor's agreements here: 1) it's gotten out of control with no guidelines, and hence the template needs to be deleted, and 2) they should only be recreated/implemented if there's WP:CONSENSUS to use them. For example, Game of Thrones is known for its constant breaking of its own viewer records every(/most) premiere and finale, so a graph using the original format might be beneficial to backup this claim, if other editors agreed. However, a typical fall show, not so much, very little consensus would be gained for such a series. Make sense? -- AlexTW 13:33, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How has this specific template "gotten out of control" exactly? You haven't provided any evidence of this. And the consensus should be for using the template, not for the template itself existing – that should be a given, for the reasons I've already explained. Modernponderer (talk) 13:48, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Read the past posts in this discussions and you'll see. It's generally been agreed, both in this discussion and past ones that you may not have seen, that visual displays for viewers are not necessary, especially not for 1) generic shows with little trend in the viewers, 2) for single-season series, and 3) especially when so many have been created in the template namespace then deliberately never implemented, and thus exist just for editor satisfaction and not reader use. The exact same content can be displayed without the template if consensus determines that it's necessary. The general agreement, however, is that it's not necessary, and thus the template is not necessary. -- AlexTW 13:53, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion was just relisted, so you're clearly wrong – there is no consensus here at the moment. As for past discussions, I don't know of any. The ones you "cited" are for a different issue and not directly relevant.
You're still basing your entire argument on your ideological stance that these visuals aren't "needed", despite what quite a few people in this discussion have told you. But you haven't presented any proof that this specific template is problematic.
(In fact you have done the opposite, with your statement about it having only ~220 transclusions. That number sounds like this template is being used appropriately, and only in those articles where it is "needed", however you define that word here. No action necessary.) Modernponderer (talk) 14:09, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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