Wikipedia talk:Image use policy/Archive 3

Okay, I wrote this on the wrong page (Village Pump). I'm learning quickly, finding new pages. There are lots of contributors here and on the Village Pump with very diverse opinions on photograph copyright but I don't see any person signing as the owner of Wikipedia --- for a reason. There has to be a very firm policy already set down by whoever owns this web site that protects them. No one would ever invest their money into something where they risk thousands of lawsuits, nor would their insurance company allow it without them following the letter of the law. If the owners of Wikipedia do not have a built-in protection against copyright violation, they would be open to thousands of lawsuits and subject to the risk of very costly litigation to defend it. Obviously, that kind of risk would not make investing in Wikipedia worthwhile and nobody would do so without insurance in sue-happy America. And, I doubt the owners would leave such an important decision in the hands of you or me or whoever happens to come along to use this site. The diversity of opinions reflected here is proof of how dangerous that would be. (note some opinions are quite strong even though they are not signed as a lawyer). The owner of Wikipedia has to have a protective policy in place already, otherwise they would spend 24 hours per day checking the legality of each photograph or they would not allow photographs at all. By the fact that they allow them, tells me they have programmed a protective system of requirements before a user can post a photograph. I am not a lawyer, and I seriously doubt you will ever see any lawyer take the enormous risk of volunteering their opinion here. Where do I find the legal facts instead of this collection of very diverse opinions? User:JoanB

"Where do I find the legal facts" - you go to a lawyer, and pay them money. Or you take a course in law at your nearest university or college.

I would take the approach that it is for the owner of wikipedia to worry about his legal risk, and for you to worry about your legal risk. Martin

Of course I would protect myself before I post any photograph. That's just common sense. I hardly think this website requires I pay a lawyer to give me an opinion before I use it. And, no lawyer would. That makes common sense. But I'm asking because you have this "Policy" page filled with people giving opinions that in all honesty I think might be rather confusing for new users like me. And, I just found on Booker T. Washington that a user, not the owner of Wikipedia, deleted someone's photograph. From what I can gather, it seems that this is totally incoherent and in fact a waste of time to even discuss it because, as I said, the owner would have a built-in protection system against abuse, honest mistakes and other situations. I will try to insert a photograph to see how the requirements work. User:JoanB

Did you took the photo yourself of is the photo at least 80 years old ? Ericd 16:40 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

I don't understand why you ask? I just checked your page and you don't claim to be the owner of Wikipedia (And yes there must be an owner who pays the bills and is responsible for this web site) and you don't claim to be Wikipedia's lawyer. That is why I am questioning all this discussion about copyright by people who don't own this site and aren't the owners legal counsel. Is the Juliette Binoche picture a picture of you? If you are Ms. Binoche do you own the picture or is it the property of the company who took it? And, even someone who is not a lawyer like me knows that the age of the photograph has zero to do with copyright. It is the years from the date of death of the owner. As Martin said: I would take the approach that it is for the owner of wikipedia to worry about his legal risk, and for you to worry about your legal risk. But my whole reason for questioning is which users opinion should I use? Your 80 year idea? or Red Dice? or risk having my picture deleted by someome else who thinks different? I happen to agree with Red Dice. The owner protects themselves, I worry about me and you worry about yourself and no one else. Does this make sense? User:JoanB

"And, even someone who is not a lawyer like me knows that the age of the photograph has zero to do with copyright." Do you believe that J.S. Bach Grand-Son's Grand-Son's Grand-Son has earned anything on "The Art of Fugue".You're simply wrong, see http://www.superstock.com/about/copyright.aspx. Well 75 years is more accurate than 80.

Ericd 17:08 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

it's 75 years after the death of the copyright owner. The safest bet is to only use photographs you take yourself. Joan, there is no owner of Wikipedia's content -- that is exactly what the GFDL is about -- Tarquin 17:20 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

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<< There are lots of contributors here and on the Village Pump with very diverse opinions on photograph copyright but I don't see any person signing as the owner of Wikipedia --- for a reason. >>

The owner of Wikipedia is Jimbo Wales, and he typically limits his commentary to Wikipedia's mailing list.

<< There has to be a very firm policy already set down by whoever owns this web site that protects them. >>

Or, alternatively, the owner of Wikipedia has come to the conclusion that he has very little actual legal liability in re copyright violations by virtue of his passive role as the sponsor of Wikipedia. Of course, there are a billion other possibilities that are just as likely.

<< Obviously, that kind of risk would not make investing in Wikipedia worthwhile and nobody would do so without insurance in sue-happy America. >>

My limited interaction with Jimbo Wales leads me to believe that his motives in sponsoring Wikipedia are not financial in nature, and that he is not particularly concerned about legal liability by virtue of his passive role as Wikipedia's sponsor. Of course, I don't pretend to speak for Jimbo Wales, and I could be completely wrong about his motives and his concerns.

<< I am not a lawyer, and I seriously doubt you will ever see any lawyer take the enormous risk of volunteering their opinion here. >>

With an appropriate disclaimer, there is no particular risk that a lawyer takes by volunteering his or her opinion in this forum in re copyright issues, and some have actually done so. In the final analysis, however, such opinions are no better -- or worse -- than those presented by laypersons. Moreover, the *LEGAL* opinions of lawyers who have been retained for the express purpose of providing legal opinions and legal advice (as opposed to *PERSONAL* opinions) are only as good as their malpractice insurance policies.

On this note, it appears to me that Wikipedia has obtained competent legal advice, and that Wikipedia contributors should not be concerned about Wikipedia's legal liability in re copyright violations. Moreover, good faith contributors need not worry about legal liability in re copyright violations.

Contrary to assertions made above, a temporary restraining order issued in conjuction with a suit for copyright violation could *NOT* shut down Wikipedia "in a matter of days." Due process concerns mandate that those who allege copyright violations must send a "cease and desist letter" to an alleged offender and/or their Web site service provider before filing suit. Moreover, those who seek to file suit for copyright infringement must register their copyright in a timely manner (i.e., within three months of publication or *before* copyright infringement takes place).

<< Where do I find the legal facts instead of this collection of very diverse opinions? >>

Visit a law library and ask one of the librarians where you would find a legal practice guide for copyright law and/or a self-help book on the topic.

Please note that nothing posted by me here should be construed as a legal opinion or as constituting legal advice. -- NetEsq 17:25 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

My head is spinning! Fixed 75 years after death? What about all the extensions granted Disney Studios and numerous other companies? But, the question remains is this: why can User:Ericd (an example only) post a photo of Juliette Binoche or (I just looked at the latest on the image list) User:TakuyaMurata post a picture by only saying "copyright free" or someone else who posted an album cover and many more like that. I personally might question the copyright here despite the claims made but that doesn’t seem appropriate for me to decide. Yet, a picture of Booker T. Washington was deleted by someone who said: (deleting picture of questionable copyright). Who is deciding things here? Instead of Juliette Binoche, if I post a picture of W. E. B. Du Bois will it be deleted? Something doesn’t make sense here. Why go to all of the work to post and edit a picture if one lonely soul on Wikipedia can decide to delete it but not others. That is discrimination, isn’t it? I’m even more certain this discussion is without merit and that Red Dice is right. Copyright is the owner of Wikipedia’s business, my busness, and no one else? I don’t believe the owner of Wikipedia’s intent was to have us dictate what picture could be posted or what couldn’t. What do you think? User:JoanB (This site is addictive!)

75 years after death in many european countries more in the USA. Their are some case of tolerance about copyright. For example I can quote Wiston Churchill "To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day." without having to worry to much about copyright. Posting an album cover can be viewed as a quotation by some (I'm not sure I agree with them). Wikipedia deals with copyright issues is the same way it deals with wrong assertions in articles. Some false assertion can be corrected or cuted by someone and another not. A copyrighted photo can be spotted by someone and another not. That's not discrimination that anarchy.

Ericd 19:29 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

How does one spot a copyright photograph on Wikipedia? I think the one of Juliette Binoche on your page is a copyright violation. Given that someone deleted Booker T. Washington should I delete yours? I see on the Juliette Binoche "Page History" this written by you:

• cur) (last) . . 01:36 Jan 26, 2003 . . Ericd (Removed photo - source unknown probably copyrighted)

I'n fact IMO any recent photograph of unknow source should be investigated or removed.

Ericd 20:11 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

I am afraid I don't understand how you delete one person's photograph because on a "probably copyrighted" reason, yet keep another? Please explain this so we newcomers know what to do? User:JoanB

In the US, it's 75 years after death for individual creators, and 75 years after creation for corporations. Project Gutenberg, who has to be ultra-paranoid about this kind of thing, uses 1923 as their standard cutoff date - anything before that is free (except for a few oddballs like Peter Pan), things after that are possibly copyright-free but have to be handled case-by-case, possibly involving tracking down the heirs of an author. Stan 19:42 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, Booker T. Washington died in 1915. Why was his photograph deleted? What about the Boston Red Sox logo. Its older than 1923, can I use it? JoanB

Do you know when the photographer died ? The photo came from the library of congress that makes clear restriction about Copyright restrictions. As the library of congress generally provide extensive copyright information, I (or someone else) may restore the photo after some investigation. As for now I have no time because I spend most of my time on Wikipedia to discuss about copyright issues. Ericd 20:01 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

But, Ericd, you haven't answered my question about your own actions. I think you should remove the Juliette Binoche photograph until this is cleared up. Also, how do you know Booker T. Washington's photograph was a Library of Congress photo? What if it was given to the Library by a family member under GFDL ? User:JoanB

From http://lcweb.loc.gov/rr/print/195_copr.html: "[...] Works copyrighted before 1923 are now in the public domain [...]". LOC does have to be careful, as indeed this page explains in excruciating detail, because they have a great many collections of material still under copyright (it's a library after all :-) ). BTW, doesn't matter when the photographer died, or even if he/she is still alive; the copyright extensions only extended the expiration date, they did not reach back further in time to take PD things back into copyright. So the Booker photo probably shouldn't have been deleted. Stan 20:15 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

Be careful in how you read the above. "Works copyrighted before 1923 are now in the public domain..." is a very specific statement. A photograph taken BEFORE 1923, that wasn't copyrighted until AFTER 1923, could still be under protection. -◈¡◈

Copyright exists from the moment of creation. Theoretically each sentence in a book could have a different copyright date, although authors are usually content to use the date of the last sentence. :-) A photograph would be instantaneously copyrighted at the moment the picture is developed. You can't pick an arbitrary later date, otherwise there would be no need for Disney to spend a great deal of money to get copyright terms extended - just claim that Steamboat Willie was really copyright 2003, earlier versions were just warmups. Stan 21:19 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the point of all this is, Joan. If you have reason to believe that the Binoche image is copyrighted, then you can remove it (you can't delete it since you're not a sysop, but you can take it out of any articles it is in). That is what everybody should do. I'm certain people are occasionally, often or always wrong -- that isn't the point. US laws apply to Wikipedia (because that's where Bomis and such is) and copyright holders must send a cease and desist order if Wikipedia is infringing. If that happens, the image can be deleted and we can all go about our lives. Our job is to avoid letting that happen by not uploading pictures we can't use, and bringing possible infringement to the attention of others so that the Wikipedia community can reach a consensus. US law is based of English common law, which means previous court ruling that establish precedent are relevant -- this leads to contradictory, vague and unpredictable situations. All we can do is be familiar with the appropriate legislation, follow it ourselves and, hopefully, reach a communal consensus on borderline cases. Tuf-Kat

http://lcweb.loc.gov is so slow that I can verify the copyright information. BTW I didn't ask to delede the photo I just asked to verify copyright information. Ericd 20:27 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

What does BTW mean? JoanB

By The Way....