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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 01:19, 5 February 2017 (Archiving 1 discussion(s) from Talk:Dnipropetrovsk) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2016

This page contains links to promote a website https://www.virtualtourist.com/ 201.191.198.186 (talk) 00:14, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

No it does not. It contains citations, some of which are to that site.-- Toddy1 (talk) 04:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Why is the article name still Dnipropetrovsk???

The city has been offcically renamed, and the changes have already taken effect: http://zakon2.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/1375-19 (Ukrainian). I see the discussion on this page below, but I can't find any conclusions on the discussion. --Maximaximum (talk) 08:12, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

The discussion and the conclusions are exactly five sections above this one.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:15, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Here is an English language article on non Ukrainian website that uses new name Dnipro http://www.esctoday.com/136663/eurovision-2017-kyiv-set-host-contest — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.197.19.78 (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Usage of Dnipro

Dear all,

Dnipro has been already mentioned in few news articles:

  1. http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/348766.html
  3. http://uatoday.tv/society/19-ukrainian-soldiers-injured-at-the-front-transported-to-dnipro-hospitals-671920.html

One can argue that it's Ukrainian media. However, I don't think that foreign media track changes of Ukrainian cities' names. 170.178.162.125 (talk) 07:13, 15 June 2016 (UTC)A

Dnepropetrovsk International Airport knows better :)-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
And notice that Dnepropetrovsk International Airport has flights to "Kiev". There is no rush to change names. Wikipedia is not a current events blog. It is an encyclopedia that tracks human knowledge and allows users to find information about names and places that they might encounter in other reading. If their other reading is talking about Dnipropetrovsk, or even Dnepropetrovsk, then Wikipedia must make it easy for them to find that information. --Taivo (talk) 01:45, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
That's not the case, as it should be renamed separately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tudy sudy (talk • contribs) 09:13, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Also here is an English language article on non Ukrainian website that uses the new name Dnipro

  1. http://www.esctoday.com/136663/eurovision-2017-kyiv-set-host-contest

Usage of new name takes off so it is now appropriate to change the name of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.197.104.119 (talk) 09:55, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Usage may be "taking off", but it's still not common yet. There is no point to rushing into changing just because you've got ants in your pants. --Taivo (talk) 01:40, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Old or new name?

Guys here pointed out to the spelling as 'Dnipropetrovsk' rahter than 'Dnipro'. Why then article about renamed AFTER Dnipro, city, Horishny Plavny, are with new name, but Dnipro - with old one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horishni_Plavni I'm not even mentioned error in existing name of article - it always was DnEpropetrivsk, as pointed Toddy1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.127.46.4 (talk) 08:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

'Dnipro' usage examples

I'd like to start the list of 'Dnipro' name usage examples and invite other users to add to the list. Tried to gather sources not from Ukraine, as someone wished (though plenty of web-cites in .ua domen [eg. IT companies with international connections] have influence on other www segments). I know, you can add more reliable sources. -- Ата (talk) 14:17, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Eurovision topic:

Time and date web-sites:

Economic news:

Ordinary usage by people:

-- Ата (talk) 14:17, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I looked at one of those websites - it got its content by copying from other websites, and then putting the words "read the full article on...".-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:59, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
This is by no means a compendium of current English usage. As Toddy points out, in many (most) cases you have listed, this is just cut and paste usage from a single source. You have to do more than just do a Google search and listing links. You have to actually read and evaluate each source. By requiring unique sources, your list of Eurovision articles is reduced to one as well as your list of economic articles. Indeed, in both of these cases even, the underlying source for the usage isn't actually an English source, but a Ukrainian one that the English source simply copies. --Taivo (talk) 07:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
May I suggest that if people are just copying text without changing the city name then they are ok with it? --Ата (talk) 08:08, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Some more:


The official Eurovision website uses Dnipro now too [1], and Interfax uses it as well [2] --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 18:18, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 17 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move yet. Perhaps let usage evolve and revisit the issue after a year? — JFG talk 06:28, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


– The city's name was changed, here's the proof [3]. So what else to discuss here? It's not an opinion war, it's a fact, the city has a new name. Orange-kun (talk) 13:59, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

We had a RM less than two months ago, nothing has changed since end of May, I do not see any point in opening a new one to be honest. Did you care to read it before posting here?--Ymblanter (talk) 14:04, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Unreal7 (talk) 15:03, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. There is no evidence that "Dnipro" has supplanted "Dnipropetrovsk" (or even "Dnepropetrovsk") as the common name in English for this city. Yes, the Ukrainian name is now Дніпро, but that doesn't matter in the English Wikipedia. Only the most common usage in English counts in the English Wikipedia. We are not bound by acts of the Rada here. --Taivo (talk) 15:07, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
    Could you please tell how many citations of RS (not the ones I listed above) would be enough? --Ата (talk) 08:10, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
  • How can you apply the rule of Common name to the recently renamed cities? This is senseless. So renaming is a fact now and I don't see any clear reason why to leave the old name.--Orange-kun (talk) 11:18, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Because this is not about what the cities are called within Ukraine, in Ukrainian. It's about what is most commonly used in the English language. You have to demonstrate that a majority of the reliable sources in English are now using "Dnipro" instead of "Dnipropetrovsk". A handful of mirrors of a single news report does not demonstrate "common English usage". You are itching to change things immediately. Wikipedia doesn't work that way. Read the history of discussion at Kiev and Odessa for an example of how common English usage works. --Taivo (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
It's still not about "respectable journals", but about common English usage. The first of your two articles doesn't even count because it is an article about the name change itself. The second one does, indeed, use "Dnipro" in a context outside the name change. But it's just one source. "Common" isn't one source. There is no rush to change this article name. Just look at the discussions at Kiev adn Odessa. Wikipedia is bound by English common usage, not the current political whims of the Rada. --Taivo (talk) 18:32, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
And not a single one of the "Support" comments actually addresses Wikipedia policy or uses Wikipedia policy to justify a move. The policy is very, very clear at WP:COMMONNAME. And that policy supports a go-slow approach to renaming articles based on the shift in common English usage, not the whims of the Rada. --Taivo (talk) 08:26, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
No, it has not "been wholly absorbed in English" (Ukrainian usage is utterly irrelevant.) You have no evidence of that. Even NickK's evidence is slim since the majority of his articles are in reference solely to Eurovision or were authored in Ukraine by Ukrainian news sources. --Taivo (talk) 18:06, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. This is not quite WP:SNOWCLOSE as there is already a significant news coverage, particular related to the city's Eurovision bid: Google News and many other matters not related to the name change, such as economy or politics. Per WP:NAMECHANGES we should give additional weight to these sources. Instead, the point of this discussion becomes pretty much WP:CRYSTALBALL: it seems to be clear that Dnipro will end up being used as a name in most English-language sources some time after the rename (this happened in all previous Ukrainian renames, including large cities such as Mariupol/Zhdanov and Luhansk/Voroshylovgrad), but we still do not rename as in theory it might happen that this name will end up not being used. The only question is what extra weight we are adding to these recent sources and how much time we should wait until we get a critical mass of them — NickK (talk) 14:38, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
You don't seem to understand the meaning of WP:CRYSTALBALL as it relates to this discussion. It is not relevant to those of us saying, "We don't know yet whether Dnipro will become the primary form in English or not" and your attempt to make it relevant is ridiculous. What we are saying is that there is not yet sufficient proof that it has taken root as the most common English form. Crystalball actually applies to the proponents of the move because they are hoping that it becomes the most common term. You cannot twist Crystalball to make it apply to the opponents of this change. --Taivo (talk) 18:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
And almost all of your "English" new sources have their origin in Ukraine--the Ukrainian list of Eurovision candidates and Kyiv Post articles. You're going to have to show American and British news stories and other sources that are demonstrating the new usage. There is no rush here. There is no deadline beyond which Dnipro turns into a pumpkin if Wikipedia hasn't acted. Kyiv is still at Kiev and Odesa is still at Odessa. I don't think either city has suffered any adverse effects for it. --Taivo (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The problem here is that American or British sources do not cover cities like this daily. Moreover, they don't even cover them weekly. Kyiv/Kiev and Odesa/Odessa cases are not relevant here as these cities were not officially renamed, only romanisation changed, thus they are more like a Nanjing/Nanking case. Here we have a name change and three main associated issues:
  • How can we measure common English usage here? The city gets significant and not Ukraine-originated coverage in English-language sources once in a few years when something important happens there. One such event happened last year (local team making it to the UEFA Europa League final), another one is happening now (Eurovision bid). There is little interest to this city beyond that: it gets occasional coverage on travel websites or in random (mostly Ukrainian) news, it often appears in databases but nothing more that would attract British or American attention: the city is not known to a casual British or American reader, like, say Moscow or Rome are.
  • How can we find the moment when this usage changes? In other words, from which date can we consider that English usage became Dnipro and not Dnipropetrovsk? I would be very interested in looking into this on similar examples of other large Ukrainian cities: for instance, when did common English usage switch from Zhdanov to Mariupol?
  • Deadline. People use Wikipedia to get an up-to-date information (which is our advantage over paper encyclopaedias). When Mount McKinley was renamed Denali, it took just an hour to change the name and people started getting up-to-date information immediately. In this case people keep seeing an outdated name because we assume that the new name will not be used that much. We already see that post-rename sources do use Dnipro, but this seems to be not enough. The current state basically puzzles the reader: it is not clear from the article what is the current name, in particular infobox mentions Dnipropetrovsk and Dnepropetrovsk without any mention of Dnipro, so do navboxes below. If we do not follow this rename, at least we should rewrite it similarly to, say, Pondicherry which has double name both in the infobox and in navboxes. Thus there is a deadline, a deadline of keeping Wikipedia as a source of up-to-date information — NickK (talk) 19:38, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
You are rather mistaken about the purpose of Wikipedia. It is not intended to be "up-to-date" in the sense of "right now". We are not intended to drive usage, but to reflect usage. We are not a style guide, but a reference. We are not prescriptive, but descriptive. There is no "deadline", that is your misperception of our function, otherwise we would be using "Kyiv" and "Odesa" since that's what Ukraine would like everyone to use in English. But English usage changes slowly sometimes, despite the desires of Ukrainian nationalists and people who lack patience. Yes, Wikipedia moves glacially on occasion. There is no fault in that. Perhaps with the end of Eurovision, it will be clear that English usage has unequivocally changed. I do not have a crystal ball in that regard. And I caution you against WP:OTHERSTUFF. We can both find hundreds of examples of other places in Wikipedia to support our argument. Dnipro/Dnipropetrovsk isn't Denali/McKinley. Dnipro isn't Kyiv/Kiev. It has its own history and its own future. --Taivo (talk) 20:09, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
We can argue about spelling isses like Kiev/Kyiv or Pondicherry/Puducherry, but at least in those cases we have an excellent supply of English-language sources: numerous international delegations from English-speaking countries visit Kiev/Kyiv or meet representatives of Kiev/Kyiv, and there are many English-language media covering events in Pondicherry/Puducherry, thus we can measure almost in real time how they call those cities. What is even more important, we have sources that know about the change but still ignore it. This city has no continuous coverage in English, we are supposed to give extra weight to recent sources, but what is the formula? I think we both agree that we observe a trend of switching from Dnipropetrovsk to Dnipro, but we fail to agree at which point of this trend we should change the name and how to detect this point.
In the meantime, why at least can't we use double names like Dnipropetrovsk (Dnipro) or Dnipro (Dnipropetrovsk) in the infobox and navboxes and clearly state in the article that there was a change but it is not common yet? This would at least clarify the situation to the readers — NickK (talk) 21:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
That's an excellent suggestion and I edited "Dnipro" into the infobox. It's already mentioned in the first sentence. I suspect that the coverage Dnipro gets during Euromaidan will make it quite clear how common English usage falls out--whether Dnipropetrovsk stubbornly hangs on or Dnipro supplants it. And there is no well-defined demarcation as to when we judge common English usage to have shifted. It's based on consensus among the editors. Right now, there is no consensus to change, so the status quo prevails. --Taivo (talk) 03:49, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Support - get with the times, it's 2016. (real reasons have already been stated here, it's the name, its used in engish). Also if we're talking about crystal ball predictions, it seems to be one to assume common use of 'Dnipropetrovsk' will continue despite it falling out of style already --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 18:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
It has not "fallen out of style already". That is simply your wishful thinking. And the date matters not to Wikipedia. Only common English usage, which no one has convincingly demonstrated as of yet. No one is hoping that the city's name doesn't change in English. But the change in English must have already happened before the article should be moved. That's what none of you get and why the only argument the proponents of the move have is WP:CRYSTALBALL. --Taivo (talk) 18:29, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
So let's look at what American and British sites are actually using right now. I've tried to get websites that are most likely to change quickly--tourist and travel sites with .com extensions:
No one is saying that the change isn't beginning, but it's only in the early stages and the most common usage is still "Dnipropetrovsk". --Taivo (talk) 18:42, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

PS Huffington Post has used the new name. So this American news story is demonstrating the new usage. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

So what! And a site linked to by the story is webinerds.com/company/, which spells it "Dnipropetrovsk".-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:28, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
The above is NOT a personal attack as claimed. It is the URL of a company - I got the link to the company from the article referenced by Yulia Romero above, and wondered how the company spelled the city's name. For some reason, Wikipedia blocks posting the URL with http: in front of it.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:10, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Weather "data"

Comparison of old and new versions of the Weather box

Old version

Climate data for Dnipropetrovsk
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year
Record high °C 12.3 17.5 24.1 31.8 36.1 37.8 39.8 40.9 36.5 32.6 20.6 16.3 40.9
Mean daily maximum °C −1.0 0.0 6.0 15.2 22.1 25.6 28.0 27.4 21.5 13.8 5.2 0.2 13.7
Daily mean °C −3.7 −3.4 1.8 9.6 16.1 19.8 22.1 21.4 15.5 8.9 2.0 −2.3 9.0
Mean daily minimum °C −6.1 −6.3 −1.6 4.9 10.6 14.6 16.7 15.8 10.7 5.0 −0.5 −4.7 4.9
Record low °C −30.0 −27.8 −19.2 −8.2 −2.4 3.9 5.9 3.9 −3.0 −8.0 −17.9 −27.8 −30.0
Average precipitation mm 45 43 43 38 42 60 54 43 41 37 46 47 539
Record high °F 54.1 63.5 75.4 89.2 97.0 100.0 103.6 105.6 97.7 90.7 69.1 61.3 105.6
Mean daily maximum °F 30.2 32.0 42.8 59.4 71.8 78.1 82.4 81.3 70.7 56.8 41.4 32.4 56.7
Daily mean °F 25.3 25.9 35.2 49.3 61.0 67.6 71.8 70.5 59.9 48.0 35.6 27.9 48.2
Mean daily minimum °F 21.0 20.7 29.1 40.8 51.1 58.3 62.1 60.4 51.3 41.0 31.1 23.5 40.8
Record low °F −22.0 −18.0 −2.6 17.2 27.7 39.0 42.6 39.0 26.6 17.6 −0.2 −18.0 −22.0
Average precipitation inches 1.8 1.7 1.7 1.5 1.7 2.4 2.1 1.7 1.6 1.5 1.8 1.9 21.2
Average rainy days 9 8 10 13 13 13 12 9 10 10 12 11 130
Average snowy days 16 15 9 1 0.1 0 0 0 0 1 6 15 63
Average relative humidity (%) 88 85 79 67 62 66 65 62 70 77 87 88 75
Source: Pogoda.ru.net[1]

New version

Climate data for Dnipropetrovsk, 1981–2010 normals, extremes 1955–present
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year
Record high °C 12.3 17.5 24.1 31.8 36.1 37.8 39.8 40.9 36.5 32.6 20.6 16.3 40.9
Mean daily maximum °C −1.0 0.6 7.8 16.9 25.4 27.8 30.1 29.9 23.3 14.4 7.3 0.6 15.3
Daily mean °C −2.9 −2.5 3.4 11.4 19.2 21.9 23.7 23.4 17.5 10.0 4.4 −1.5 10.6
Mean daily minimum °C −4.9 −5.7 −1.0 5.8 13.1 15.9 17.4 16.9 11.8 4.7 1.6 −3.6 6.0
Record low °C −30.0 −27.8 −19.2 −8.2 −2.4 3.9 5.9 3.9 −3.0 −8.0 −17.9 −27.8 −30.0
Average precipitation mm 76 56 52 46 34 30 26 22 25 28 72 102 569
Record high °F 54.1 63.5 75.4 89.2 97.0 100.0 103.6 105.6 97.7 90.7 69.1 61.3 105.6
Mean daily maximum °F 30.2 33.1 46.0 62.4 77.7 82.0 86.2 85.8 73.9 57.9 45.1 33.1 59.5
Daily mean °F 26.8 27.5 38.1 52.5 66.6 71.4 74.7 74.1 63.5 50.0 39.9 29.3 51.1
Mean daily minimum °F 23.2 21.7 30.2 42.4 55.6 60.6 63.3 62.4 53.2 40.5 34.9 25.5 42.8
Record low °F −22.0 −18.0 −2.6 17.2 27.7 39.0 42.6 39.0 26.6 17.6 −0.2 −18.0 −22.0
Average precipitation inches 3.0 2.2 2.0 1.8 1.3 1.2 1.0 0.9 1.0 1.1 2.8 4.0 22.4
Average rainy days 13 12 12 11 9 6 5 4 5 8 12 13 110
Average snowy days 11 10 6 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 4 9 41
Average relative humidity (%) 88 85 79 67 62 66 65 62 70 77 87 88 75
Mean monthly sunshine hours 185 207 269 309 325 311 313 287 271 247 173 160 3,057
Source 1: Meteoprog.ua[2]
Source 2: «Guide to Climate of the USSR».[3]
  1. ^ "Pogoda.ru.net" (in Russian). May 2011. Retrieved 4 October 2012.
  2. ^ "Meteoprog.ua" (in Ukrainian). June 2016. Retrieved 18 June 2016.
  3. ^ (Справочник по климату СССР. Выпуск 10. Украинская ССР. Часть 1. Солнечная радиация, радиационный баланс и солнечное сияние. Л.: Гидрометиздат. 1966. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |agency= ignored (help)).

The old version has a verifiable source.

The new version has two alleged sources:

  • "Meteoprog.ua" (in Ukrainian). June 2016. Retrieved 18 June 2016.
  • «Guide to Climate of the USSR».<ref name="Guide to Climate of the USSR">(Справочник по климату СССР. Выпуск 10. Украинская ССР. Часть 1. Солнечная радиация, радиационный баланс и солнечное сияние. Л.: Гидрометиздат. 1966. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |agency= ignored (help)

Of the new sources, one only contains information about the weather in Dnepropetrovsk now, and in the next week. It tells us nothing about how the weather varies through the year.

The other dates from 1966. I know Soviet technology was very advanced, but the notion that a source from 1966 tells us about the weather from 1981 to 2010 is hard to believe.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:25, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Toddy1, I revised my citations, and now I guess, the information of the sources of my cites support the text in my edit.Thank you for your opinion.Paulandys (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:20, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

@Toddy1: I would agree too. Using one year of data to explain climatic conditions is inaccurate due to year to year variability. I am also skeptical of the sunshine hours too; I could not find the WMO climatological data on sunshine data for Dnipropetrovsk. Currently, the sunshine data is unsourced (not found in both sources) while the temperatures are not backed up by any of the citations mentioned (weatheronline.co.uk only has data from 1982–present). Ssbbplayer (talk) 15:09, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I think we should revert the new paragraphs. They contain statements that are not supported by citations - for example citations that do not mention the things they are being cited for, or do not even city of Dnepropetrovsk. Let me give some examples:
Another thing that disturbs me is that the citations being added are clearly being copied and pasted from other articles. Look at this edit from 16th July.[15] The access date in the template was 21 January 2009. Maybe the person adding all this stuff is not even reading the stuff that he/she cites.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:02, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, the person is not reading the stuff he/she cites. I have seen it on other cities in Ukraine. This example from Adding in statements that are not supported by citations is no better than adding in statements that lack citations. From the FAO source, I did not see any parts that mention that most precipitation falls from November to April. All I see is that precipitation has changed in Ukraine with some areas seeing an increase in annual precipitation and others seeing a decrease. It should be reverted to the last good version. Ssbbplayer (talk) 01:06, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I have reverted as discussed. Ssbbplayer agree with reversion proposal. Paulandys thanked me for the edit proposing reversion and has not posted any objection, so maybe that meant that he/she agreed with it.
I considered keeping a sentence about the Köppen–Geiger climate classification system, but I got bored going through citation after citation that did not actually mention Dnepropetrovsk, and so were not relevant.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Toddy1 and Ssbbplayer, I would agree with your comments with regards to not quite correct sources and weather box (perhaps they are not quite correct, I'm sorry that I could be misleading, but out of it, it was not done for the vandalism, it was the best of intentions).

For example, data on the duration of sunshine (yes, they are out of date, but I figured that it was better raspolagatpo least what some information on this issue than none at all). But if you return to the description of the climate, I am convinced that it is true in my version. Here are some facts that should confirm this:

1. First, though for the city the average temperature of the coldest month below -3 ° C (26,6 ° F) (although in fact it is about -3 ° C), then the Köppen climate classification climate must be the climate is moderately cold with uniform moisture (Humid continental climate), but the city to fit entirely in the steppe zone and soil moisture is not highly enough, precipitation as a whole falls less than evaporate (volatility of this region is similar to evaporation, such as areas of Northern California or areas of Central Nevada and is approximately 0,5-0,3) and that meet the criteria for the semi-arid climate, which can not be classified as continental (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification#Group_D:_Continental.2Fmicrothermal_climates)

2. It is also in favor of the steppe (semi-arid) climate advocates that "the climate in the broadest sense - the global climate - characterized by a statistical ensemble of states through which the system" atmosphere - hydrosphere - land - cryosphere - biosphere "in decades", the there is a "climate" - is not only the temperature, but still mode precipitation and evaporation (http://shopkins.uga.edu/dir/Geog1112/Lectures1112/LECT28.хтм). Specifically it is about Dnepropetrovsk is not mentioned in the sources, but they said "the steppe region of Ukraine" and Dnepropetrovsk is located directly in the center of this geographic region. (Https://php.radford.edu/~swoodwar/biomes/?page_id=173)

3. Over the last 15 years in Dnepropetrovsk, every third winter is cold, and the other two relatively mild or cool (often a temperature above the freezing point).

4. My remarks about the city of climate change in the direction of the Mediterranean climate consists in the fact that on the basis of precipitation mode, aridity typical for dry years, and for the wet, the only difference is that during the dry years are very rare rainfall during from May to early October, and during the wet years from mid-May to the end of September and drop them within the period of 3 or 4 times in a thunderstorm (year high in June falls in the form of thunderstorms, but other days with precipitation last for a period of 1-2 days for each month), while due to they do not bear the high volatility of the region a moisturizing character. I'm not talking about "the classic Mediterranean climate", I mean a continental Mediterranean climate (northern boundary). The region has very few agricultural crops that can grow without irrigation of artificial. None of the residents not to count on the rain in the summer as a source of irrigation, which directly proves that the climate is dry in the summer (it is a fact, as Dnepropetrovsk my hometown, I have for many years lived in it, and I know what I'm talking ). So put Dnepropetrovsk in a line with the cities of the "classic" humid continental climate such as for example, Moscow, Detroit, Chicago or even Kiev - is absolutely wrong and not true. In fact, the climate of the city rather similar to the climate in these regions, for example as the Reno (NV), Denver (Colorado) or to the inner (continental) regions of Iran (as under the regime of precipitation and the net evaporation, and for similar temperature ranges (average, as well as the maximum and minimum). Of course the winter in the region somewhat cooler, but in general the climate is very similar in nature. It can be easily verified.

5. With regard to the hardiness zone through (USDA-zone) of the city, it is in the zone 7a (a source that I cited was a worker and proven), but in the areas of commercial temperature is higher by about 2 - 3 ° C, and they are not far from the city center, in which there rise on the floor area up zone 7b. There are many heat-loving plants are grown southern subtropical latitudes (quince, cypress, laurel and others).


6. Question by smog in the city, too, is open, due to High luminance level of enterprises and rare rain in the summer in Dnepropetrovsk is able on average from June to the end of September (sometimes with short breaks during rare summer thunderstorms).


Taking into account all of the above me, I propose to add my changes to this section:

Paulandys's 15:45, 30 July 2016 suggested text for the Climate section of the article

Climate

Under the Köppen–Geiger climate classification system, the Dnipropetrovsk has been variously categorized as having either a semi-arid climate (BSk in the original classification[1][2][3] and BSkn in modified Köppen classification)[4] or a Mediterranean climate (Csa). During the summer, Dnipropetrovsk is very warm (average day temperature in July is 24 to 28 °C (75 to 82 °F), even hot sometimes 32 to 36 °C (90 to 97 °F). Temperatures as high as 36 °C (97 °F) have been recorded in May. Winter is not so cold (average day temperature in January is −4 to 0 °C (25 to 32 °F), but when there is no snow and the wind blows hard, it feels extremely cold. A mix of snow and rain happens usually in December.

As the city exemplifies the urban heat island effect, temperatures in commercial areas and in the industrialized areas along interstates are often higher than in the suburbs, often as much as 2.8 °C (5 °F).The city lies in the USDA plant hardiness zones 7a and 7b (Downtown).[5]

The best time for visiting the city is in late spring — late April and May, and early in autumn: September, October, when the city's trees turn yellow. Other times are mainly dry with a few showers.[6]

File:Early autumn in Dnipro (city) 2015.jpg
Early autumn in Dnipropetrovsk, October 2015.

Owing to geography, heavy reliance on automobiles, and the coal-using industries, such as metallurgical coke-chemical plants, Dnipropetrovsk suffers from air pollution in the form of smog.[7] "However, the city is characterized with significant pollution of air with industrial emissions."[8] The "severely polluted air and water" and allegedly "vast areas of decimated landscape" of Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk are considered by some to be an environmental crisis.[9] Though exactly where in Dnipropetrovsk these areas might be found is not stated.[9]

Climate data for Dnipropetrovsk
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year
Record high °C (°F) 12.3
(54.1) 		17.5
(63.5) 		24.1
(75.4) 		31.8
(89.2) 		36.1
(97.0) 		37.8
(100.0) 		39.8
(103.6) 		40.9
(105.6) 		36.5
(97.7) 		32.6
(90.7) 		20.6
(69.1) 		16.3
(61.3) 		40.9
(105.6)
Mean daily maximum °C (°F) −1.0
(30.2) 		0.0
(32.0) 		6.0
(42.8) 		15.2
(59.4) 		22.1
(71.8) 		25.6
(78.1) 		28.0
(82.4) 		27.4
(81.3) 		21.5
(70.7) 		13.8
(56.8) 		5.2
(41.4) 		0.2
(32.4) 		13.7
(56.7)
Daily mean °C (°F) −3.7
(25.3) 		−3.4
(25.9) 		1.8
(35.2) 		9.6
(49.3) 		16.1
(61.0) 		19.8
(67.6) 		22.1
(71.8) 		21.4
(70.5) 		15.5
(59.9) 		8.9
(48.0) 		2.0
(35.6) 		−2.3
(27.9) 		9.0
(48.2)
Mean daily minimum °C (°F) −6.1
(21.0) 		−6.3
(20.7) 		−1.6
(29.1) 		4.9
(40.8) 		10.6
(51.1) 		14.6
(58.3) 		16.7
(62.1) 		15.8
(60.4) 		10.7
(51.3) 		5.0
(41.0) 		−0.5
(31.1) 		−4.7
(23.5) 		4.9
(40.8)
Record low °C (°F) −30.0
(−22.0) 		−27.8
(−18.0) 		−19.2
(−2.6) 		−8.2
(17.2) 		−2.4
(27.7) 		3.9
(39.0) 		5.9
(42.6) 		3.9
(39.0) 		−3.0
(26.6) 		−8.0
(17.6) 		−17.9
(−0.2) 		−27.8
(−18.0) 		−30.0
(−22.0)
Average precipitation mm (inches) 45
(1.8) 		43
(1.7) 		43
(1.7) 		38
(1.5) 		42
(1.7) 		60
(2.4) 		54
(2.1) 		43
(1.7) 		41
(1.6) 		37
(1.5) 		46
(1.8) 		47
(1.9) 		539
(21.2)
Average rainy days 9 8 10 13 13 13 12 9 10 10 12 11 130
Average snowy days 16 15 9 1 0.1 0 0 0 0 1 6 15 63
Average relative humidity (%) 88 85 79 67 62 66 65 62 70 77 87 88 75
Source: Pogoda.ru.net[10]

"

  1. ^ Depending on the climatologist's threshold, BSk if based upon the annual mean temperature (<18.0 °C or 64.4 °F), BSh if based upon the daily average temperature in the coldest month (≥0 °C or 32 °F).
  2. ^ "Climate Classification and Climatic Regions of the World". PhysicalGeography.net. Retrieved Jul 25, 2016.
  3. ^ "The climate of the Ukraine". weatheronline.co.uk. Retrieved Jul 25, 2016.
  4. ^ E. Bouma (2005). "Development of comparable agro-climatic zones for the international exchange of data on the efficacy and crop safety of plant protection products". Bulletin OEPP/EPPO, Blackwell Publishing, Ltd.: 1075–1082. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
  5. ^ "Ukraine Hardiness Zone Zone Map". Based on the USDA Hardiness Zone Map. Retrieved April 24, 2016.
  6. ^ See also: klimadiagramme.de — Climate in Dnipropetrovsk URL accessed on 20 March 2007
  7. ^ "Ten most polluted cities in Ukraine?". June 2010. Retrieved April 25, 2016.
  8. ^ "Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine – Population". Mfa.gov.ua. Retrieved 28 November 2014.
  9. ^ a b www.mongabay.com Russia – Geography states: "Since 1990 Russian experts have added to the list the following less spectacular but equally threatening environmental crises: the Dnepropetrovsk-Donets and Kuznets coal-mining and metallurgical centres, which have severely polluted air and water and vast areas of decimated landscape;..."
  10. ^ "Pogoda.ru.net" (in Russian). May 2011. Retrieved 4 October 2012.

Toddy1 and Ssbbplayer, I really look forward to your objectivity on this issue. Thank you. Paulandys (talk) 15:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No original research says "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[1] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented."
Writing down a load of stuff, that you think ought to be true is original research. Giving the stuff citations to "not quite correct sources" that you cribbed from other articles or Google is dishonest.
As regards your latest proposal, the very first source I checked was to a text on "Köppen Climate Classification System", which does not mention the city. Citations to this kind of irrelevant source are not helpful.-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:10, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
  • "As the city exemplifies the urban heat island effect, temperatures in commercial areas and in the industrialized areas along interstates are often higher than in the suburbs, often as much as 2.8 °C (5 °F).The city lies in the USDA plant hardiness zones 7a and 7b (Downtown).[5]" The source does not mention any of the stuff in the first sentence. There is a map in source [5] that justifies the statement about hardiness zones - but this is probably of greater significance to an article about hardiness zones than to an article on the city of Dnepropetrovsk. The terms "downtown" and "interstate" are American terms, which have no meaning to the rest of us.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
  • "Owing to geography, heavy reliance on automobiles, and the coal-using industries, such as metallurgical coke-chemical plants, Dnipropetrovsk suffers from air pollution in the form of smog.[7]" Where is in the source is any of that?-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Toddy1, well I knew (or rather I guessed) that you think so, but I'm more than rely on the fact that you understand the concept of "climate zones" and "climatic regions" and what climates they represent. Listen to what you said domestic atlas, is fundamentally different from the situation that actually. Ukrainian climatology very long time moving away from Soviet concepts about climate (whether these are your words). I say to you about the facts, not the quotes in the old dusty books. You see, I was in in the agricultural sector and very strong sign of the climate and its features and I would not write complete nonsense here, if I did not know what I write.
Look, I just suggest to make what I write (the description of the climate of the city Dnipropetrovsk region), so maybe it does not describe the city of Dnepropetrovsk, but it describes the region (climate zone) of the city.
Just understand description of the city in the form of climate (
During the summer, Dnepropetrovsk very warm ...) is not quite correct. You can use this classification to describe the source: <ref> E. Bouma (2005). "Development of comparable agro-climatic zones for the international exchange of data on the ef fi cacy and crop safety of plant protection products". Bulletin OEPP / EPPO, Blackwell Publishing, Ltd.: 1075–1082. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help) < / ref> (there is a map that clearly indicate the type of climate in the region).
Can I edit a chapter, if you want. Or you are using this link (it seems to me justified in full, as this scientific work, and in it we are talking about the crops, and it has to do with the climate zone and the climate as a whole) or the other (better).
Just understand one simple thing: dry climate of the region is not as it can not be wet continental - it's true and it's a fact.
Thank you for your response and your comments.
P.S.At the expense of hardiness zones: We, too, need to know which plants can be grown (and here it does not matter the United States or any other country) literate person reading make for themselves the right conclusions.
Thank you, waiting for your response on this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulandys (talk • contribs) 20:47, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
The issue is that the citations do not support the content. Providing citations to general texts on classification systems is of relevance only to articles on the classification systems.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:07, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


Ok, what articles you want?
To be honest, I have read so many years is: (During the summer, Dnepropetrovsk very warm ...).
Why do you push down the obvious, you read my sources? Why in other Wikipedia articles are worse quotes on the subject, but not here? I just do not understand ... The source, which I gave in the last treatment have a map that clearly shows in which climatic region is Dnepropetrovsk.
Look for example at these sections is really better described the climate of the city ?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_City#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle#Climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid#Climate
And that's just cursory examples ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulandys (talk • contribs) 22:16, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
If you look at the example of Denver#Climate, you will see that it cites the same source that you wanted to cite for the climate classification. This source explicitly states Denver's climate classification under the Köppen system. It is therefore a relevant source for Denver. But the source does not mention Dnepropetrovsk.-- Toddy1 (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Comments on Latest revision as of 10:17, 7 August 2016 by Paulandys:

Citation [1] is "The climate of the Ukraine". weatheronline.co.uk. Retrieved Jul 25, 2016.. This says the following:

"The Climate of the Ukraine can be classified as Dfb Climate; a humid Snow climate with warmest month between 10°C and 22°C over average, the coldest month lower than -3°C over average and four or more months above 10°C over average. The coastal areas of the Black Sea have a Cfa Climate,; a warm temperated humid climate with the warmest month lower than 22°C over average and four or more months above 10°C over average. The Climate of the eastern Inland areas can be classified as Bsk Climate, a cold, dry Climate with a dry summer and annual average Temperatures under 18°C."[16]

Citation [1] was in the previous version of the article.

Citation [2] is World Map of the Köppen-Geiger Climate Classification This shows a world map in which Ukraine including the coastal areas is shown as Bs climate (steppe). This source contradicts citation [1].

Citation [3] is "The climate of the World". © 1996-2016 National Geographic Society.All rights reserved (NationalGeographic.com). Retrieved Aug 7, 2016. This shows a tiny map of the world that shows Ukraine in which Ukraine including the coastal areas is shown as semi-arid. This source also contradicts citation [1].

There is a difference in formatting between citations [2] and [3] that were inserted by Paulandys in his/her edit, which suggests that the citations were copied from other articles.

There is a contradiction between sources that should be discussed.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:01, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Citations 2 of 3 from the counter to citation 1, here's why: "Climate eastern hinterland can be classified as the Ivory Coast climate, cold, dry climate with dry summers and average temperatures below 18 ° C" (Dnepropetrovsk is located on the South-East (or in the East (according to other sources)) in the steppe zone of Ukraine (Ukraine see the map if you do not know)) where there is a high evaporation, which is contrary to the climate of define as "wet continental climate", please read the literature on bioclimatic zones of the planet, and you will understand everything.
Here for example in the steppes - the climate is dry, continental nature, but dry. A forest bioclimatic regions - continental wet evenly moistened. Dnipropetrovsk is located in the plains, not in the forest regions, and that the climate is dry steppe.
http://www.wiley.com/college/sc/deblij/1.pdf
Read the information and look at the map on the sites, and then I have a feeling that you do not understand what you write. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulandys (talk • contribs) 15:33, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Do you know which book the pdf is from? It appears to be chapter one of one the following two books:[17]
  • Geography: Realms, Regions, and Concepts, by H.J. de Blij, Peter Muller and Jan Nijman, pub Wiley, 16th Edition
  • The World Today: Concepts and Regions in Geography, by H.J. de Blij, Peter Muller and Jan Nijman, pub Wiley, 6th Edition
Whichever it it, the map on page 45 supports a statement that the climate is BSk for Dnepropetrovsk and also cities on the Black Sea coast of Ukraine.
Nevertheless, other sources paint a different view. For example World Map of the Köppen-Geiger Climate Classification updated, has a link underlying data. This zip-archive contains one text file (ASCII text with CRLF line terminators) including the climate classification on a regular 0.5 degree lat/lon grid for the period 1951 to 2000. Dnipropetrovsk is 48°27′N 34°59′, and the nearest data point in the table of underlying data is: 48.25 34.75, which is Dfb.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:30, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Calculation of Köppen-Geiger climate classification for four cities in southern Ukraine

There are formulae for assessing the Köppen-Geiger climate classification given in the following reference:

Kottek, Markus; Grieser, Jürgen; Beck, Christoph; Rudolf, Bruno; Rubel, Franz (June 2006). "World Map of the Köppen-Geiger climate classification updated" (PDF). Meteorologische Zeitschrift. 15 (3). GebrüderBorntraeger: 259–263. Retrieved 7 August 2016.

The units are degrees Centigrade for temperature and millimetres for precipitation.

Let us apply these formulae to four cities in Southern Ukraine

Data definition Abbreviation Dnepropetrovsk Krivoy Rog Zaporozhye Sevastopol
Annual mean temperature Tann 9 9 9.4 11.79
Monthly mean temperatures of the coldest month Tmin -3.6 -3.1 -5.9 1.7
Monthly mean temperatures of the warmest month Tmax 22.1 22.5 28.3 22.1
Number of months where the mean monthly temperature was 10°C or more 5 5 5 7
Accumulated annual precipitation Pann 539 444 498 583
Accumulated summer precipitation (May-October) 277 273 261 271
Percentage of precipitation in the summer 51% 61% 52% 46%
Dryness threshold Pth 32 32 32.8 37.58
Lowest monthly mean precipitation values for the summer Psmin 37 32 35 39
Highest monthly mean precipitation values for the summer Psmax 60 62 62 54
Lowest monthly mean precipitation values for the winter Pwmin 38 24 35 36
Highest monthly mean precipitation values for the winter Pwmax 47 31 44 74
First letter definition Formula Comment
A Equatorial climates Tmin ≥ +18°C. All four cities have Tmin below this threshold.
B Arid climates Pann < 10 Pth All four cities have Pann more than 10 x Pth
C Warm temperate climates −3°C <Tmin <+18°C Only Sevastopol have Tmin above −3°C
D Snow climates Tmin≤−3°C Dnepropetrovsk, Krivoy Rog, and Zaporozhye have Tmin below −3°C
E Polar climates Tmax<+10°C All of the cities have Tmax above +10°C

Warm temperate climates

Second letter definition Formula Comment
Cs Warm temperate climate with dry summer Psmin < Pwmin, Pwmax > 3 Psmin and Psmin < 40 mm
Cw Warm temperate climate with dry winter Pwmin < Psmin and Psmax > 10 Pwmin
Cf Warm temperate climate, fully humid neither Cs nor Cw Sevastopol fits this

Snow climates

Second letter definition Formula Comment
Ds Snow climate with dry summer Psmin < Pwmin, Pwmax > 3 Psmin and Psmin < 40 mm
Dw Snow climate with dry winter Pwmin < Psmin and Psmax > 10 Pwmin
Df Snow climate, fully humid neither Ds nor Dw Dnepropetrovsk, Krivoy Rog, and Zaporozhye fit this

Third letter definition for the warm temperate and snow climates (C) and (D)

Third letter definition Formula Comment
a Hot summer Tmax ≥ +22°C All four cities fit this
b Warm summer not(a) and at least 4 Tmon ≥ +10°C
c Cool summer and cold winter not (b) and Tmin > −38°C
d Extremely continental like (c) but Tmin ≤ −38°C

When I calculated the Köppen-Geiger climate classifications from climate data and the Köppen-Geiger climate classification formulae I got the following results

-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:13, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

  • With regards to the data that Toddy1 mentioned, it is from 1951–2000 (based on the journal article under the "Data and method" section), which is why it would have a Dfb climate back then (the old 1961–1990 data shows it as Dfb since the July mean temperature is only 21.2). The Dfa is based on the new data from 1981–2010. I also would like to point out that some steppe areas such as most of the prairies in Canada are classified as continental rather than steppe (BSk) so just because it is located in a plains does not necessary mean that it has a BSk climate (this is probably one of the shortcomings of the system but this is just my opinion). Citation 2 and 3 are not reliable as citation 1 since citation 1 mentions the methodology used to derive the map and the data sources while sources 2 and 3 fail to mention on how they come up with the map. I checked the Peel et al source ([18]) and similar to the citation 1, most of Ukraine falls under the Dfb zone with a small patch of Dfa and Cfa in the south. Again the source has a detailed methodology in generating the map so these 2 sources are reliable compared to citation 2 and 3. Regarding citation 2, the methodology is subjective for rainfall, using terms such as "heavy wet all year" and "minimal rainfall". What constitutes heavy rainfall year round and what is the threshold required for a place to have minimal rainfall? A similar question is also applied to what constitutes a "wet continental climate"? Also, source 2 overgeneralizes too much climates by saying how humid continental climates have evenly distributed rainfall even though places in Asia have a summer maxima in precipitation. Citation 3 is not as reliable as citation 1 and the Peel et al source. For the weatheronline source, they do not define "eastern inland areas" nor provide a map so I cannot be 100% sure if Dnipropetrovsk lies in the BSk zone. They also defined Cfa wrong since the warmest mean temp must be above 22, not below 22 as what the source says. Ssbbplayer (talk) 04:03, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
@Ssbbplayer: Please could you suggest a wording for the article.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:19, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
@Toddy1: This is my suggestion for the first sentence. It should be "Under the Köppen–Geiger climate classification system, Dnipropetrovsk has a humid continental climate (Dfa/Dfb) (citation 1 inserted here)". Citation 1 has good data. Personally, I think this version is the best. Again, being in a plains does not necessary mean that it is semi–arid. It is just on the drier side of the humid continental climate regime. I choose Dfa/Dfb since it is a borderline case as the mean temp in the warmest month in the 1981-2010 period is just above 22 (while older period of references such as the 1961-1990 and 1951-2000 are slightly below 22). Ssbbplayer (talk) 15:36, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
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