Jump to content

Talk:Solar System/Archive 4

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Talk:Solar System
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Serendipodous (talk | contribs) at 05:42, 8 September 2006 (→Move to Sol Star System). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Formation of the solar system

I have created an article on the formation of the solar system. This article makes reference to some farily recent but also very exciting research that is changing the view of how the solar system formed. --EMS | Talk 04:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Just a thought; your article and the origin section on the Solar system section are not that different. Perhaps it would be more efficient to simply rewrite the origins section to include Theia? Serendipodous 08:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
At the moment they are not too different. (However, six weeks ago when I started to draft it the 2:1 Jupiter-Saturn resonance was not mentioned here.) But do note that I very much intend for the article to grow. There is a lot of stuff that an individual artice can cover that a simple section cannot. I will create a to-do list for it ASAP. --EMS | Talk 02:26, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Good article nomination

While I do not think this article is anywhere near worthy of Featured status, I believe it may still qualify for Good status. I would also appreciate as much help as possible in improving its quality. Serendipodous 22:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Image for "Hypothetical planets"

Can anyone find a free-to-use image of a Vulcanoid, Nemesis, or Planet X? I can't seem to find anything in the public domain. Thanks.Serendipodous 21:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

There are a few "Planet X" images in NASA's site. NASA is a U.S. government agency and does not claim copyright over its works, so they can be used (with proper attribution, of course). Include "site:nasa.gov" in your Google image search. --69.109.225.223 20:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! That Google advice was really really useful! Unfortunately, the only NASA image that even remotely resembles Planet X is a picture of a KBO with the words "Planet X" stamped on it. :) Not much to work with. Serendipodous 09:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Reference wanted

From lead section: "a main sequence G2 star that contains 99.86% of the system's known mass and dominates it gravitationally." Is there a reference for this figure?  -- Run!  00:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

reference added Serendipodous 10:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Space.com solar system page added as new external link. Includes recent stories, but also collective galleries on aspects of the solar system and some original video clips derived from their Starry Night software and dvds. Also includes a virtual space tour.Starexplorer 13:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Good work

This article does a good job of explaining technical material. Maurreen 07:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I can say thank you to that, even though I didn't write all of this article :-). I have been working flat out to improve it, and it's nice to know that it seems to be working. Serendipodous 08:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome. Maurreen 16:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Length

The article is 63 KB. I think it could stand to be shorter. But I don't want to make any big changes on my own. Maurreen 16:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

What would you trim? If I wanted to be brutal I would split the "Origin and Evolution" section off into its own article (perhaps merging it with EMS's Formation of the solar system), create a new article on hypothetical planets, (though I may need help with that; I've hacked that article down rather mercilessly recently, because, quite frankly, it stank, and if I am going to recreate it I'll need to figure out a way to do it without repeating information available elsewhere). and ditch the "Extrasolar planets" section entirely, since it has virtually nothing to do with the Solar system. That said, even though it's long, the solar system is a big topic and I like the user getting the full info without having to hop between articles. Serendipodous 19:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
OK; I've swallowed my pride and recreated the hypothetical planet article. It's not good but it's better than it was. It's still going to need a lot of tedious work though. I'll need someone else's goahead before I do anything more drastic. Serendipodous
EMS and I are in discussion about fusing our two sections to create one gigantic Formation of the solar system article. It's still a mess, but it's getting there. Serendipodous 22:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That's better. Thank you. Maurreen 03:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I would suggest reducing the 'Pluto and Charon', '2003 UB313 ("Xena")', and 'Sedna' sections by about 50%. These are somewhat minor planets in comparison to, say, Jupiter. Yet they have the longest sections. Perhaps the information about their discovery and whether they are "planets" can be left to the specific pages? Anyway, just a suggestion. — RJH (talk) 19:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

orbital radiuses table

There was once a very useful table with arbital radiuses of major planets and other useful info. It seems to be removed from the article now. What are the reason of the removal? I, personally, fount it very useful to get idea of solar system scale and distanes between planets. It it possible to put the table back, or move it to separate page and make a notable link to it, please? -Zigmar 18:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You mean this table?
Scale of planetary orbits.
(million kilometres)
The bottom and top of each colored bar represent a planet's nearest approach to the sun and farthest distance from the sun.
I thought the reasons I got rid of it would have seemed fairly obvious. It was cumbersome, badly designed, and above all, took up WAY too much space. Wherever I attempted to place it, it completely overwhelmed the text of the article, making it impossible to read. Notice how, with the introduction of this table, your added section is now three times longer. Note also that the text at the top is already bleeding into the text I'm writing now. I subbed it with the "Sedna" image, which also shows the orbits of the planets to scale, but doesn't take up half the article to do it. However, I am always open to new ideas; if you feel that there is some way to incorporate this table into the article without swamping it, I'd be happy to see it re-instated. It's a good table in theory; it just doesn't go with this article. Also, it REALLY needs to be rethought at the design level. Hijacking the "timeline" template and reusing it for planetary distances not only makes the image virtually impossible to resize, but also leaves the page a mess in the editing window. I would be happier if it were a simple .jpg or .gif file. Serendipodous 18:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
By itself the image looks decent. But I expect you would get a better distribution of the data if you used a logarithmic scale for the orbital radius and then reduced the overall width and height about 20%. Plus a logarithmic scale would demonstrate the Titius-Bode law very nicely, and it could then be used on that article page. — RJH (talk) 18:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I need to settle this

Poll: Should extrasolar planets be mentioned in this article?

This article is very long, and extrasolar planets and planetary systems are only tangentally related to the topic. However, they do have some relevance to it. Is that relevance strong enough to warrant an additional few paragraphs when simply providing a link to extrasolar planet would arguably suffice? Serendipodous 20:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I was tempted to remove that myself at one point. I think a link to extrasolar planets in the see also section would suffice. — RJH (talk) 20:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

What would it take to get this article up to feature quality?

Any thoughts?Serendipodous 20:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

You might look at FA criteria. At the moment if doesn't meet the stability criteria due to the large number of edits, so it might need to lie fallow for some period of time. You might also look at the Manual of Style to see if this article is fully compliant. After that, I'd just go for it. FA can be a humbling experience, but you'll probably get good feedback and have a chance to fix the problems. Plus you can always take it back again after it's fixed up. — RJH (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Review

I'm in the middle of reviewing this article for Good Article status, but won't be able to finish until probably sometime tomorrow. One comment can make at this point is that the footnote positioning is frequently incorrect. The ref tag should come directly after the punctuation which terminates the associated clause (or, in English: the footnote should be right after the comma or period with no space in between). I'll give you some more specific and detailed comments with my promotion decision tomorrow. --jwandersTalk 21:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

A question just of interest, is there really such rule? Because I've been told to use space before ref tag (not like this[1] but like this [1]); in real life, not in Wikipedia.--JyriL talk 22:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Yup, see Wikipedia:Footnotes#Place_ref_tag_after_punctuation. Apparently that's what the Chicago MoS recommends and what WP decided to emmulate, but it might well not be universal. --jwandersTalk 22:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Solar System/Archive 4 has failed, for the following reason:

Though the work done on this article is very good and it is well on it's way to promotion, it's not quite there yet. Based on the numbering in WP:WIAGA, this article comes up short in the following areas:
1a)
Many areas of the article feel unfocussed. Details irrelavant to the point of the paragraph or sentence are frequently added parenthetically, making it more difficult to follow the flow of the prose. For example, consider the following sentence, "Astronomers consider Pluto, (38 AU average) the solar system's smallest planet, to be part of the Kuiper Belt population." The main point of the sentence is simply Astronomers consider Pluto part of the Kuiper Belt", though two other facts have been wedged into the middle of this idea.
1c)
A large number of minor errors in WP:MOS formatting, including the footnote placement mentioned above, missing units, captilization and punctuation errors.
1d)
Jargon is used to alluded to theories without being adequately explained for the lay-reader. For example, the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram is frequently referenced when describing the Sun in relation to other stars, but this assumes the reader has prior knowledge of that diagram.
3)
This is a fine point, but this article seems to focus heavily on "the objects in the solar system" and devote little attention to the solar system itself. The details of the planets and other objects could be summarised much more briefly (with links to their own articles), and the informatinon on solar system formation and history significantly expanded.
5)
There have been a significant number of edits today alone, and the current version differs enough from that of [a week ago] that it qualifies as unstable.
6a)
The copyright tag on the Venus image looks a little dicey. It says a link to the author's website must be included with the image, which to me sounds like it would have to be in the caption. This should be looked into this further.

Some more specific comments (these did not necessary effect the GA decision, but are merely things I spotted during the review):

Lead, para 1
Suggest "distant objects" in place of "trans-Neptunian" as Neptune has yet to be introduced.
Lead, para 3
Many of the planet symbols don't appear properly on my system; perhaps the article needs an appropriate font warning message?
Layout and distances, image caption
Should be capitalised.
Layout and distances, para 2
Not sure if "in synch" is formal language. Consider re-wording.
Layout and distances, para 3
"with their perihelions and aphelions widely spaced apart. This sounds funny to me; do you mean something like "with a large difference between perihelions and aphelion".
Sun
Wow... that first picture's really bright! It seems crazy, but I'm tempted to recommend darkening it a bit, as it really distracts from the article.
Sun, para 1
"Hertzsprung-Russell diagram" needs a brief explanation for the references to it to make sense without the reader having to go to that article.
Inner planets
Could use Main article: XXX tags. Same with outer planets.
Asteroids, para 2
"The largest asteroid, Ceres, has a diameter of almost 1000 km; large enough to be spherical, which would make it a planet by some definitions of the word." The "large enough to be spherical" comment implies that the reader would already know of the astrophysics it refers to.
Uranus
"...it is still several thousand degrees..." This ought to have units.
Pluto and Charon
In the first sentence, "(38 AU average)" should come before the comma. Also should probably be expanded to "at an average orbital distance of 38 AU".
2003 UB313 ("Xena")
"has been nicknamed "Xena" by its discoverers, after the television character." This is a mismisplaced modifier, i.e. "after the television character" is technically refering to the discoverers, currently, not to Xena. Consider, "which its discoverers nicknamed "Xena" after the television character."
Galactic context, para 4
The hypothesis explained in the later half of this para needs a citation.

Despite the issues I've identified, this article is very good and shows a lot of potential. I urge you to renomitate it once these problems have been addressed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jwanders (talk • contribs) 00:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The Linkspam issue

I have no idea which of the external links are "approved" sites and which aren't. Obviously the NASA sites are kosher, but while I do like SolStation and Celestia, but I have no idea if they have any more "right" to be here than the other solar system sites that get linked to this page. What is linkspam and what isn't? Serendipodous 21:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Not familiar with SolStation (will have to check it out), but I'd say Celestia is a good choice as it is an excellent tool for learning about the solar system. --Ckatzchatspy 18:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Twelve Planets

The number of planets may need to be expanded to twelve following the news that the International Astronomical Union has recommended to its members that Charon, Xena and Ceres be ratified as new planets. [1] The new definition states that a planet is any star-orbiting object so large that its own gravity pulls in its rough edges, producing a near-perfect sphere. 210.185.71.34 06:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. I wanna wait until the final vote; this proposal seems completely arbitrary and doesn't make any sense at all. Serendipodous 06:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the proposal makes perfect sense. For millenia we haven't had a clear definition of what exacly defines a planet. This new proposal, agreed upon unanimously by a special committee of the IAU, will set clear standards for what is and is not a planet. See the articles planet and definition of planet for more information on that. And if you can get ahold of the August 16th Chicago Tribune article on the subject, I highly recommend it; it's an excellent piece that clearly lays the facts and reasonings behind what's going on. That said, I think we must hold off saying that the Solar System is 12 planets until the official vote scheduled for August 24th. After that, this article will need some serious updating. --TiroAethra 15:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The proposal itself makes sense, even if it is a bit messy, but there's no reason to link this proposal with this random number "12 planets." If this proposal is accepted, there would be about 30 planets, not 12. Why everyone's jumping on 12, I have no idea. Serendipodous 17:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that the proposal was accompanied with the formal suggestion that Ceres, Charon and Xena be immediately prompted to planets while decision on any other objects be delayed for additional discussion. Hence accepting the proposal could immediately create a 12 planet system with more to come. Dragons flight 17:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I've started a new article on this topic, see 2006 redefinition of planet. Please help to expand that article. Thank you. --Cyde Weys 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball

The solar system has currently nine known planets. Anything else is speculation until August 24th, and should be treated as such. So no more may become planets, please.--JyriL talk 17:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct, it is not a crystal ball. However, that doesn't prevent factual statements like "The IAU are currently considering whether to classify additional objects as planets" or such like. AndrewRT - Talk 19:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Correct. However, "has twelve planets" is not factual. It is guessing.Eh Nonymous 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that the above method, would be good. But they shouldn't include moons, and they should have a fixed diameter. I really think Xena should be included as a planet, and they should hurry up with an official name. TheDalek 14:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Did the other planets even become planets. do they sitll have a chance or not.

Template

What do you think about having a template on the Solar System? I'll make a start on what I mean: Template:Solar system AndrewRT - Talk 20:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

FA Status?

The template at top suggests it's failed its current FA application, but the FA page doesn't look like the nomination's closed? 4 days seems to be an awfully short FA nomination period, although I guess it was pretty clear which way it was leaning. Anchoress 05:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I never really intended this article for feature consideration. I simply wanted some advice on what needed to be done to make it feature quality. I've answered most of their issues but it'll be a long time before I resubmit it. Serendipodous 06:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I gathered that from the FA nomination page. But it still leaves dangling a) whether or not the article should have a 'failed FA' template, and b) whether or not the FA nomination is officially closed. Anchoress 06:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Earth and Moon: A double planet?

The section on Pluto and Charon states: "Like the Earth/Moon, Pluto and Charon are often considered a double planet, since both orbit a common barycenter between the two bodies.".

But the article Double planet states that Earth and moon are not a double planet since the barycenter lies within the more massive planet; Earth in this case.(2006 redefinition of planet and Double_planet#Debate)

I don't think this a subject of debate because of the literally defined criterion of the barycenter.

--Alif 11:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The current proposal by the IAU for a definition of 'planet' suggests that we call a system a 'double planet' if its barycentre is outside both bodies. However, this is only a proposal. The term 'double planet' has been used casually for years to simply mean 'a planet with a big moon', or to refer to objects orbiting a barycentre regardless of whether it is outside the main body. There needs to be a distinction made between the casual use of the term, and this new, more specific proposal. The Singing Badger 11:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I use the term "double planet" to describe Earth/Moon because the Moon's orbit around the Sun is concave; it effectively orbits the Sun directly. Serendipodous 17:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiosity

Are there any extrasolar systems with as many or more planets than our system? From I've seen, most systems consist of 2-3 gas giants and maybe a small rocky one. --Nog64 17:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

There very well could be, but we can't find them yet. Our sensors are currently detecting the mid-to-large range. To get to see the smaller rocky ones we'd need the TPF or Darwin or some other humongous next generation telescope. We might start finding those mega-systems in the future. Serendipodous 17:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent reclassification of planets

With the recent news of astronomers finally classifying what a planet is, we now have a new solar system. As a consequence this page needs updating. You can view the news here: http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html -- RND  T  C  09:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It is only a draft proposal, and it is unclear if this or any other proposal will be selected. The voting will be held on August 24. No changes before that.--JyriL talk 09:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


"There were at one point nine planets, but Pluto was stripped of its status as a planet on August 24, 2006, by the International Astronomical Union, according to CNN."

The same IAU ruling that demoted the Pluto/Charon system from planet, also promoted Ceres up to being a planet - so we're still at 9.

Actually there were several "planets" added and then declassified over the years. We probably had way more than 9 at certain points.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/hilton/AsteroidHistory/minorplanets.html


Question - Does the need for an object to have cleared its orbit of other objects now relegate Jupiter and the Earth among others from the list of planets? It seems to me that the IAU really dropped the ball here.
The most recent reclassification (IAU Resolution 5A) was really quite sloppy. The "cleared its orbital vicinity" clause technically DQ's Uranus (because Pluto is in its orbital vicinity), Jupiter (because it has Trojan asteroids), Mars (ditto), and Earth (because of the large number of NEOs). Ceres isn't even in the running since it is in the asteroid belt. That leaves something like four (Mercury, Venus, Saturn, and Uranus). I think the IAU is going to have to clear up their wording... zowie 19:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Zowie, the phrase in resolution 5A "(c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit" may be sloppy wording, but it could be loosely defined to incorporate the following phenomena: (a) capture of satellites, (b) caused the orbital migration (scattering) of other bodies from the orbital vicinity, (c) as well as the regularisation of small bodies into Langrangian positions (Trojans) or resonant orbits (2:1, 3:2, and other trans-Neptunian populations). The inner planets may have sufficient mass to eject or capture satellites, but not nearly so well as Jupiter.
While I'm here, may I point out that an anonymous (IP only) has tried to protect the small Solar System template and moved Pluto back to the category of planet. The template probably needs to be protected from vandalism for the next while - first of all, a whole lot of possible candidates for "dwarf planetdom" were added, then removed, and finally Pluto put back where it was up until August 24. Vandals may also decide to attack certain other solar system pages. Philip Legge @ 01:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that Pluto and Charon are classified as a double planet system. While that was under the original proposal, I think Pluto's demotion to dwarf planet has resulted in Charon being an un-important chunk of ice, rather than part of a double planet system. 67.68.46.64 21:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Former Planet Comment

Formerly included in the list of planets was Pluto (♇). Numerous articles also state that Ceres was classified as a planet (see comment in preceeding discussion). If Pluto is going to be specially referenced, why not Ceres which spent years on the planet list? Just curious. Zurel Darrillian 15:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to scale?

Come on! This is Wikipedia! Are you telling me that we can't even get a scale picture of the Solar System? I, for one, am disgusted...

I guess you don't realize what a scale picture of the solar system would look like. Picture a yellow circle about a centimeter in diameter (for the Sun) and then a black expanse extending about 100 feet past the edge of your monitor. The gas giants would each be about 1 pixel. Earth would not be visible. Kaldari 23:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
For those having trouble visualising the scale of things in space, these images may help [2]. It doesn't show the size of the solar system however... These images incidently have been shrunk. I received them by e-mail a while back and they're larger so somewhere along the line someone shrunk them. I don't know the source of the images but you could probably find better versions if you search harder Nil Einne 15:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC) Nil Einne 15:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Definition of solar system not complete

This article defines the solar system as "eight planets and their 162 known moons, as well as dwarf planets, asteroids, meteoroids, planetoids, comets, and interplanetary dust". This omits the 80(?) moons orbiting dwarf planets and small solar system bodies. Please see the natural satellite article which states that there are "240 known moons within the Solar system". Kaldari 23:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The sentence is, "eight planets and their 162 currently known moons." KBOs and asteroids aren't planets. Ergo their moons wouldn't be listed. Serendipodous 19:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not arguing about that. I'm saying that according to the sentence, the moons of asteriods and KBOs are not included in the definition of the solar system! Kaldari 22:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't follow the IAU. Numerous astrologers don't follow the IAU. In all likelihood, hundreds of thousands of people all over the world don't follow the IAU. Therefore, I see nothing wrong in considering asteroids and KBOs to be planets. — Rickyrab | Talk 21:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"a trans-neptunian object"

The new caption for that picture is quite sad. Can't we just say its Pluto, for old times' sake?

"Definition"

I've shifted this short section over to the talk page, because it's somewhat unclear as to where it belongs.

Definition

As of August 2006 the following rules must be passed for a celestial body to count as a planet in our solar system: A planet is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape (c) has cleared the neighborhood around its orbit.

First of all, the title is misleading; this article is about the solar system, not about planets, so "definition" would refer to the Solar system in this context, not to planets.

That aside, the section was oddly placed and didn't really fit into the overall structure of the article. There are enough mentions of the IAU's decision in the article already without having to go into so much detail. Serendipodous 22:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Capitalize Solar System?

Why isn't "solar system" capitalized since it refers to the name of our stellar system, named for our star "Sol"?

There was a long discussion about this years ago, and it was decided not to capitalise it. For further info, check the earlier discussion archive. Serendipodous 08:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
We can capitalize it. I see no reason why someone else's decision from years ago should apply to current Wikipedia. — Rickyrab | Talk 21:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
In official nomenclature, as put out by the IAU, the words `Solar System' are, in fact, capitalised. Shouldn't we at wikipedia be adhering to the definition provided by the IAU - as for instance is done with defining other celestial objects. See this IAU Link http://www.iau.org/SPELLING_OF_NAMES.240.0.html jkm 09:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Layout - removed text

I've removed the following text from the "Layout" section:

"By and large, the planets within the solar system are arranged so that each is roughly double the distance from the Sun as the one before it, an effect described by Bode's Law. Venus is roughly twice as far from the Sun as Mercury, Earth is roughly double the distance as Venus, Mars double that of Earth, and so on."

Looking at this table, the numbers just don't support the above assertion - even with a "by and large" disclaimer. The reference to "Bode's Law" isn't great, either, as it makes T-B appear to be a law, rather than a "law". Any thoughts? --Ckatzchatspy 18:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It's one thing to just remove text; it's another thing to redraft it with something you feel is more accurate. Some mention of the layout of the solar system should be included in that section. If you feel you are not qualified or inclined to create it, then don't remove the text. I originally included a deeper discussion of Bode's law in earlier drafts, but decided that it was irrellevant and dropped it. I have no idea how it suddenly crept back into the text again. Serendipodous 19:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I have to disagree with you on one of your points. You stated: "If you feel you are not qualified or inclined to create it, then don't remove the text." The text is incorrect, and the data on planetary orbits supports that contention. It would be bad practice to leave the text in there. I did not "just remove text" - instead, I transferred it to the talk page, so that the community could discuss it. --Ckatzchatspy 20:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Then what would be correct? Certainly saying that all the planets are the same distance appart is incorrect. And it is (roughly) true that the planets double their distances from one another with each orbit, particularly if one includes the asteroid belt. If you feel a more accurate description is needed, then please create one. Otherwise I don't see what's wrong with saying that the planet's orbits roughly double. Serendipodous 16:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not clear on what, exactly, your argument is. Here are some of the points you're making:
"...saying that all the planets are the same distance appart is incorrect"'
- true, but not what I proposed at all.
"...it is (roughly) true that the planets double their distances from one another with each orbit, particularly if one includes the asteroid belt..."
- again, do the numbers support this? Looking at the table, it seems we can make this "roughly" work if we drop Earth and Neptune, and reclassify Pluto and Ceres as planets. That, to me, doesn't make for a sound statement.
"I don't see what's wrong with saying that the planet's orbits roughly double."
- There's nothing wrong with saying it, as long as it is true. Unfortunately, it isn't the case with the eight defined planets, and it still doesn't work if we try to force it by adding other bodies.
Look, if I've missed something, if my math is faulty, then say so. I won't debate the point if I've missed a decimal here or there, and everything actually fits "roughly" into place. However, I don't think it does. --Ckatzchatspy 00:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all, my main issue isn't that you disagree that the planets' orbits are roughly double. It is that you took out the only direct reference to the layout of the solar system in a section called "Layout" and didn't replace it with anything. If you feel my assertion that the planets' orbits are roughly double is wrong, then come up with a description of your own. Don't just delete the text without replacing it.
The section is just fine without the text. Your solution is to leave in an incorrect assertion until something else is written to replace it. If an article about the United States stated that it was the largest country in the world, would you have me leave that erroneous statement in there until something was written to replace it? We would be doing a disservice to the readers. --Ckatzchatspy 16:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Second, if you follow the orbits from Earth outwards (not necessarily counting Pluto and Ceres as planets, but certainly counting the asteroid and Kuiper belts as orbits), with the exception of Neptune they are almost exactly double. That's six orbits out of ten, which, for my money, qualifies as "by and large." see here Serendipodous 11:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The text said "planets". The math does not support this. Add in the asteroid belt, ignore Mercury and Venus, whatever, the math does not support it. As nice as it would be to have a convenient description like that, it doesn't apply to our solar system. --Ckatzchatspy 16:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
What I don't understand is why you feel it has to be exact or nothing. We're not dealing with a mathematical construction here; we're dealing with nature. And, even if a statement about nature is only 70 percent correct, it would still qualify, in my book, as a useful generalisation. As I said, if we wanted to make a statement about the orbits in the solar system, what would be more correct; that they are, by and large, double, or that they are arranged linearly? A lot of people don't know that the orbits of the planets increase exponentially, because diagrams of the solar system (like the one in this article) depict them as linear. Some mention of the exponential nature of the orbits of the solar system is necessary to counter this common misconception. Indeed I would say that doing so is important enough that keeping an only vaguely accurate account of the orbits in the solar system in is preferable to taking it out. Again, I repeat, if you don't want to use the word "double" than come up with your own word, but don't just delete it. Serendipodous 17:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've never said that it has to be exact or nothing, nor would I - as you said, it's nature. If the statement were a close approximation, then it would be useful. However, as worded, it is "by and large" inaccurate and misleading, two qualities which would warrant removal. Fix it, tweak it, rewrite it, fine - but when a statement is wrong, it gets pulled, not when a replacement is found, but right away. (I'm not even going to touch on the Titus-Bode "law", as you yourself dismissed it as "irrelevant" in an earlier statement.) Your concern is that we should attempt to dispel the layperson's notion that the planets are in a linear progression. Fair enough, and a worthy goal. Now, let's test the "doubled" progression, as that layperson might attempt it. They would probably get a pen and start drawing circles, doubling the distance each time. If they do that, they'll be way off the mark by the time they get to Earth (drawing it past Mars' orbit), and really out at Mars (now beyond the asteroid belt). Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus would each be pushed outwards by increasingly substantial amounts, and Neptune (would be drawn out past Pluto (which, at over 15 billion km, would make 2003 UB313's actual orbit seem "local".) If we factor in the asteroid belt, then it's even farther out of whack, and asking people to "start with Earth", or ignore Neptune, or count "orbits" ("but remember, they're not planets") will only compound the confusion. Remember, anyone who's attempting to use this sort of solution probably isn't going to be comparing the actual numbers, or compensating for errors with each subsequent orbit (i.e. "Venus to Earth, 2x108,000,000=216,000,000 vs. actual 150,000,000, now Earth to Mars, 2x150,000,000=300,000,000 vs. 228,000,000, etc.") They'll start at Mercury and keep on doubling the numbers. Look, I'm not questioning your desire to establish the non-linear progression. What doesn't make sense is that you would want to hang on to a statement that you, yourself, have described as "only vaguely accurate". --Ckatzchatspy 07:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
So, how would you phrase it? Serendipodous 08:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Given how many words we've expended to get to this point, I'm not sure there are any left to use in a statement... <grin> Ummm, I'll ponder this for a bit. Off the top of my head, points to mention would be 1) not linear 2) no simple "pattern". Might be worth opening a new section for this discussion - we should probably get input from the other editors, but they might well miss this part of the thread amidst all the other text. --Ckatzchatspy 07:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
And given that I said several times that my main complaint was not that you removed the reference but that you didn't replace it with something more accurate, I don't see why we did go through circles to get here. Anyway. I think starting a new section is a good idea. "No simple pattern" is not particularly helpful, especially since we have to explain what "not linear" means. I'll shift this down to the bottom. Serendipodous 07:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Move to Sol Star System

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was STAY 132.205.44.134 04:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to move solar system to Sol Star System, as Sol is the name of the central star of the system, and thus the name of our star system would be the Sol Star System. --myselfalso 03:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You could probably call other "solar systems" - "extrasolar systems" -- Nbound 12:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Rather 'extra solar system systems'. -- Ec5618 12:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Or not... that doesnt even make sense :| -- Nbound 09:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move to Solar System

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. The slim majority support a move (12 or 10 to 8, depending on whether you count a very new user and an anonymous user), the International Astronomical Union supports capitalization and the votes that came after the discovery of the IAU's position were all in favor of a move, except for one. -- Kjkolb 02:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

solar system to Solar System. As this is the name of our solar system, it should be capitalized. Voortle 15:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Oppose. This has been discussed at length before; read the archives next time to see if moves have already been proposed before and learn the reasons why the move did not happen.Derek Balsam 15:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Ditto. Serendipodous 16:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Support. Well, as I've mentioned above, it's the name of our solar system. Just as we wouldn't have Play Station at play station, this shouldn't be here. Voortle 16:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Again; read archive 1. By your logic, we would have to capitalise the word "solar" every time we use it. "the sun" is never capitalised, and neither, for that matter, is "sunbeam" "sunshine," or "sunhat." Or "solar." Serendipodous 18:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
"the Sun" and "the Moon" are often capitalized. You're telling me that you've never seen them capitalized? "sunshine", "sunbeam" and "sunhat" are compound words, like "earthquake", and thus are not capitalized. "solar" by itself is not capitalized, as it's not a name. "Solar System", however, is the name of our solar system. Voortle 19:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
"Solar" is NOT capitalsed. EVER. Except then. That was the beginning of a sentence.Serendipodous 21:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Capitalization, as most elements of the English language, is nuanced. In this case, I argue that it is a choice of style. (Please read Chris's post on www.science-teachers.com.) Various manuals of style are inconsistent in detailing whether the terms "earth," "sun," and "moon" should be capitalized or not. I think that the term "solar system" is subject to the same stylistic nuances as the terms "earth," "sun," and "moon." I think we should recognize the stylistic choice in naming this article either "Solar system" or "Solar System," and instead of renaming the article, be prudent and not rename the page unnecessarily. Besides sheer prudence, because I consider this is a significantly large, well-developed, and possibly well-trafficked article, I oppose renaming it as to avoid any confusion and/or unnecessary strain on the server. --Iamunknown 21:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The servers are slaves to the electricity we feed them. Who the hell cares what they "think"? mdf 18:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose - See Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Lowercase_second_and_subsequent_words. Note that "system" is not a proper noun. --EMS | Talk 22:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose - as I interpret it, the term refers to "Sol's system" (the system around Sol, or our sun), in which case "system" should be lower-case. --Ckatzchatspy 00:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Solar system is not a proper noun. The solar system is the system that is gravitationally bound to Sol, and should no more be capitalized than should solar power, solar maximum, or solar cycle.--Srleffler 04:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Solar System is as proper a noun as United States is. mdf 18:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
"United States" is a two words being used as a single noun for a political entity. It is common to capitalize words in political names for importance and emphasis. In science, this practice has become frowned upon due to its being abused by people seeking to make their own research sound important. That is why Einstein's theory of gravitation is general relativity instead of "General Relativity". solar system is a scientific subject, not a political one. --EMS | Talk 19:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like more special pleading, as I picked a noun totally at random. What would your response had been had I selected Taco Bell? (Note: I have many, many more examples waiting. We can go through each, one by one, if you wish.) mdf 19:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Same difference. The "Bell" in Taco Bell is traditionally capitalized, and that capitalization is part of the name of that restaurant chain. Except when required for punctuation purpopses, solar system is not capitalized at all, and the "system" part never is. FWIW: I used to refer to "Relativity" and "General Relativity" on the same basis as you are giving, but I came to terms with their non-capitalization when I wrote an article for publication in a journal. The proper terms are relativity and general relativity by very strict convention, which also relates to "solar system". --EMS | Talk 04:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
My copy of Murray and Dermott's Solar System Dynamics will captitalize System when appropriate. Both this and the Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac religiously capitalize all named members of the Solar System when they are directly referred to. Similarly, you do not need to look hard to find references to the "Kuiper Belt", "Oort Cloud" and other specific, unique, features of our particular instance of a solar system in both the technical and popular literature. Your next proper noun to explain is "Easter Bunny". mdf 13:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Looking more exhaustively through M&D, it seems the rule is this: whenever they capitalize the "Solar", the "System" is also capitalized. It turns out there are a number of specific references to the Solar System as "solar system"; one can conceivably wiggle around about how it can be interpreted as a generic solar system, but whatever. mdf 13:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
From the official Wikipeidia policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions:
Convention: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne and Art Nouveau, but not Computer Game).
There is nothing more to say. The "b" in Easter Bunny is almost always capitalized (and Easter bunny redirects to "Easter Bunny" becuase of that). However, for the other names cited above the Wikipedia articles are Kuiper belt and Oort cloud. IMO, you need to get with the program. "Solar system" is a noun, but it is not a proper noun. --EMS | Talk 13:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
An interesting theory. However, the "b" in Bunny and Bell and "s" in States are capitalized not because of politics or simply because of wide usage or whatever crazy notion you invent on the fly, but because these are direct, unique, names of these entities. Hence "Golden Gate Bridge", with a big B. Ditto for "Fred Espanak" or "Talking Heads". Did you even read what proper noun has to say? "Proper nouns (also called proper names) are the names of unique entities." It even goes on to say that "Proper nouns are capitalized in English and most other languages that use the Latin alphabet, and this is one easy way to recognise them." So the issue reduces to whether or not the subject of this article is, in fact, a "unique entity" and what it's name actually is. To that end, I feel it it self-evident it is unique (like the particular instance of a human called "Fred") as opposed to a generic class ("human"). If that's not enough we can look at the article itself: it carefully describes the particulars, and (helpfully) there is another article about the generic). And if that is still insufficient, one need only peruse the vast literature beyond Wikipedia; near as I can tell, it is in complete 100% agreement. As to the name, despite the efforts of some science fiction writers and their fans (see below cf. "Sol star system"), everyone refers to the mechanism as "the" solar system. Therefore, by appealling to the same WP Holy Script you mention, this article should be called "Solar System". Failing that, if it could be demonstrated that "solar system" dominates "Solar System" outside of Wikipedia, it should be called "solar system" -- except that due to WP bogosity the first letter must be capitalized. In that instance, we need that little ditty near the top of the article that babbles on about "due to technical limitations the real title of this article is ....". mdf 14:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Strong support. The arguments present in the archive are highly unpersuasive, and read more like post hoc special pleadings than anything else. There are many, many, examples of multi-word proper nouns that are titled as much at Wikipedia (Democratic Republic of the Congo, Golden Gate Bridge, Sea-to-Sky Highway, ad nauseum), and to that extent "Solar system" is an outlier, not the norm. mdf 18:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Comment. Is there a name for the solar system anywhere in reality or fiction? --myselfalso 06:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's Solar System. Just like the name of our moon is "Moon" and the name of our star is "Sun" and the name of our planet is "Earth". Voortle 08:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the name for the sun is Sol, and the name for the moon is Luna. The Manual of Style is incorrect in saying that "sun" and "moon" are proper nouns. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 03:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not incorrect. "Sun" and "Moon" are proper nouns. Voortle 12:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
"Sun" and "Moon" are proper nouns. "sun" "moon" The definition of "solar system" is here "solar system". The name of our solar system is NOT The Solar System. If anything it would be the Sol Star System. --myselfalso 17:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Open any paper dictionary, and you'll learn that they are not proper nouns. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 02:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Turn to any paper on the subject of the "Sun" or the "Moon" and you see otherwise. mdf 13:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Strong support. Don't we need a proper noun to refer to our Solar System? If not "Solar System", then what? The planets, galaxies, and even comets have proper nouns. I say we capitalize it to be consistent.--Heyjude1971 02:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It would be consistent, albeit incorrect. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 03:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Strong oppose. Planets have names (Earth, for example). Galaxies have names (Andromeda Galaxy, for example). Comets have names (Comet Halley, for example). The Sun has a name (Sol). The Moon has a name (Luna). I propose we move the article from Solar system to Sol Star System. --myselfalso 03:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC) --myselfalso 17:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose - It's just a "system" and does not need capitalization. "Solar" should be capitalized, whether due to Wikipedia naming or due to referring to our star Sol. I'm here referring to the name of this article, and not grammatical usage. (SEWilco 06:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC))
Strong support Shouldn't we be using the spelling that the IAU recommends? I strongly urge all those who oppose capitalising System to look at the IAU's view on the matter. We accept their definition of Planet, and their other rulings in regard to Space, why should we make an exception for the Solar System? http://www.iau.org/SPELLING_OF_NAMES.240.0.html Is how the IAU refers to the Solar System. As well Wikipedia refers to Mexico City (Capitalised), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City, or Kuwait City (Capitalised)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait_City. I can't see how it is consistent with the wikipedia policy to refer to Kuwait City and Mexico City - capitalising City, and then not capitalising System. All 3 are locations, all 3 are proper nouns - can someone who opposes the change explain the difference please? And also explain what gives wikipedia the right to cherry pick which IAU recommendations and directives will be used and which will be wilfully ignored. jkm 11:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Strong support We should be following IAU recommendations, as we do for other celestial entities. Richard B 12:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Well if the IAU says "Solar System", who are we to argue? Except of course that we've spent the last two weeks doing nothing but arguing over the IAU's decisions. Serendipodous 14:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The decisions and recommendations of the IAU are probably only binding on astronomers, and only those who are IAU members at that. I suggest we find one and have him or her rename the article.  ;-) More seriously, given that the arguments against appear to be ad hoc, there are now very good arguments in favour, and there are probably non-trivial consequences of the move, this ought to be moved up to next level. mdf 15:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Strong support As per Mdf Scott Osborne 15:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Strong support After learning that the IAU has capitalized "Solar System," I see no reason not to rename the article "Solar System". Though, I do think the name "Sol Star System" should be popularized and become part of pop culture. --myselfalso 17:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Or "Sol System", which is commonly used in sci-fi texts. Wiizoo 12:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
*Oppose. The term is not proper according to dictionaries, and is commonly rendered as a proper noun only in certain Science Fiction literature. Consider that one can refer to something being "in a different solar system" and you'll see that the term is generic. It is only by context that it is commonly taken to refer to our own solar system.Derek Balsam 22:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Comment You've already voted against the proposal once. And why pick a dictionary above the IAU's recommendation - bearing in mind that the IAU dictate the nomenclature for many astronomical objects? Richard B 23:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Comment While of course I do not condone someone voting twice (and have taken it upon myself to strike DB's second vote, not the comment), I'm unsure what is accomplished by haphazardly discarding common publications – and not just one – which indicate titular renditions that are fairly common (per EMS, et al.) and do not agree with IAU prescriptions ... which are (at the core) part of a specialised style guide that somewhat conflicts with the Wp Manual of Style and which we need not necessarily follow. The IAU style guide/recommendation can be discarded just as easily as being too esoteric. Cogito ergo sumo 23:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
My sincere apologies for the double vote, it was inadvertent. Thanks for striking, Cogito.Derek Balsam 02:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
No problem! :) Cogito ergo sumo 02:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not fear of captialisation, it's fear of improper capitalisation. If we succumbed to every temptation to capitalise, we would suddenly find ourselves back in the 17th century, inne whiche alle Wordes of Sufficiente Importe were Capitalized or writtene inne Italicke fonte. My main problem with this is that, while "solar system" may be describing a unique location, "solar" is never capitalised. If it were, we'd have to capitalise "solar power", "solar year" and "solar minimum". And quite frankly, it looks stupid. Like capitalising My Fridge. Serendipodous 06:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Reading the IAU recommendations, it mentions that the initial letters of the names of individual astronomical objects should be capitalised - where individual object could also mean a collection of objects in one single entity such as a specific named galaxy (e.g. Whirlpool Galaxy, Andromeda Galaxy). This would also apply to Solar System. None of "solar power", "solar year" or "solar minimum" are physical astronomical objects, so none would need to be capitalised at all. Richard B 14:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a matter of perspective, since arguably 'solar' (vis-à–vis 'stellar') is quite specific in and of itself. Even though 'solar' has entered into informal usage somewhat when pertaining to planets/systems around other stars, dictionaries always prescribe the specific usage and may indicate others: look up 'solar' itself in a dictionary and you will note that there's no indication that it applies to other stars, just Sol. And, again, there is little reason to capitalise a common term and the Wp entry when other common, reputable publications do not. Capitilisation is unnecessary. Cogito ergo sumo 15:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
As Richard B points out then, why do we capitalise both words of Andromeda Galaxy & Whirlpool Galaxy - and doing so doesn't mean we need to capitalise "galactic circle" or "galactic coordinates" or other words using galactic, so I don't see how the argument about "solar power" and "solar year" holds any weight at all in this argument. Some say that Solar System should not be capitalised because it is a generic term - bollocks. When visiting another star system, perhaps Sirius - would we really call that a visit to a solar system? Hardly, it would be a visit to the Sirius System. Just the same as ours is the Solar System. I really can't understand the arguments put against capitalisation - it is a location, and it is a unique location! Show me another place called the "Solar System" and then maybe I'll start accepting that it's a generic term. jkm 06:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

I think this another example of generic vs specific - a solar system vs The Solar System. Either way, the article needs to be rewritten slightly to match. (Just it is correct to refer to a sun in other systems, but ours is the Sun.) -- Beardo 21:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Should this discussion be closed and the article subsequently renamed? The consensus was incredibly slim (~61% by my count), but the general trend after jkm noted the IAU's recommendations was unanimous support of a rename. I'm sure the consensus would become larger if the discussion were allowed to continue. --Iamunknown 15:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I somewhat agree with B.; otherwise, I believe closure is for a WP:RM administrator to gauge and decide. Cogito ergo sumo 21:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Solar_System/Archive_4&oldid=74475938"