Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 23

Archive 20

Archive 21

Archive 22

Archive 23

Archive 24

Archive 25

→

Archive 30

The documentation for 'cite av media' needs to be improved...

I assume {{Cite AV media}} is supposed to be used for YouTube video references? Yet the documentation doesn't contain one "YouTube example". It would certainly help if such an example could be added to the documentation. Just sayin'... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:20, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello, IJBall

Your assumption is wrong. YouTube is not a reliable source in Wikipedia and must never be used. (It can be used as a medium though, as opposed to a source, e.g. you link to a reliable source that has an embedded video.)

{{Cite AV media}} is used for film and audio recordings, e.g. a conference available for sale on a tape, CD, DVD, Blu-Ray and online streaming.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 08:58, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

@IJBall: my opinion is a bit more nuanced than Codename Lisa's. If the appropriate entity uploads a video to YouTube, without violating copyright, and the video otherwise meets our requirements regarding reliable sources and self-published sources, then in that case the video is acceptable as a source. However, in this case, YouTube is not the publisher, but it's acting as a republisher of sorts. In that case, you'd cite the video as if YouTube had nothing to do with the video, crediting the original creators and publisher. Then you could add the appropriate |url= with |access-date= and append |via=YouTube to note where it was republished.

However, since most content on YouTube is self-published, it can't be used without complying with the exceptions noted at WP:SPS. Imzadi 1979 → 09:37, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Looks to me we are actually on the same page. Just different opinions of how to word our approach... —Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 09:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I actually knew all that. And, yes, I'm thinking of something like this which is simply a promo released directly from Nickelodeon on YouTube. Movie trailers direct from movie studios would be another example. In any case, this comes up a lot, and a "YouTube" example should be added to the {{Cite AV media}} documentation so that your garden variety editor knows how to properly cite YouTube, including the |via=YouTube parameter. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Replacements (gsub) in Module:Citation/CS1

Should str= mw.ustring.gsub (str, '[“”]', '\"'); be changed to str= mw.ustring.gsub (str, '[“”]', '%"'); as Lua escape character should be %, not standard regex \?

Same applies for line below. --Obsuser (talk) 03:50, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

@Obsuser: In Lua, strings can use various escape sequences that start with \, including \". Further details at mw:LUAREF#string - Evad37 [talk] 08:57, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

@Obsuser: The Lua reference manual states that \" is a valid escape character for double quotes: Lexical Conventions. Normally %x is usable in describing a character class for x, (see Character Class, but within a replacement string a character class doesn't make sense, unless it's part of a capture. Try pasting:

1. print( string.gsub('123abc', '[2a]', '\"') )
2. print( string.gsub('123abc', '[2a]', '"') )
3. print( string.gsub('123abc', '[2a]', '%"') )

into https://www.lua.org/cgi-bin/demo and you'll see that 1 & 2 work, but the interpreter barfs at the % in number 3. --RexxS (talk) 20:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

@Evad37 and RexxS: Thank you. I was confused with mw:LUAREF#string.gsub which says for replacement string that "The character % works as an escape character: any...". However, the following part of the sentence mentions captures.

I've tried to use :gsub(',', '%.') on one string in Wikipedia module and it worked as I thought it would: I got "." instead of ",", not "%." instead of "," (I want to say that % worked as escape character for dot; in https://www.lua.org/cgi-bin/demo it doesn't work that way). --Obsuser (talk) 21:01, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

About WP:PAGELINK

The problem seems to have arisen nearly 6 years ago, when it was decided to link Google Books pages not adding pageurl to titleurl and chapterurl, but distorting the use of titleurl, which since then can also no longer be addressed to the front cover. Personally I solve by placing a link in the page or quote parameter, but some editors disagree and revert me. I mean, what do you think of updating the template {{cite book}}? --Mauro Lanari (talk) 09:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

A link to a particular page can be useful, but a link to the cover is just advertising Google Books for little benefit, since the same page is only one extra click away via the ISBN link. Kanguole 10:42, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

But since the title of a book is written on the front cover, the titleurl should direct there and nowhere else. Or not? In addition, the ISBN link often leads to a wrong edition of the book, or to one now out of print. --Mauro Lanari (talk) 11:30, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

The ISBN should lead to the edition of the book being cited, otherwise it tends to make page number useless. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

What are you talking about? That RFC did not make any decision regarding a (non-existent) |pageurl= parameter. In fact, |pageurl= is not mentioned in the RFC and only once is a cs1|2 template mentioned as an example – the editor described linked to a specific page using {{cite book}}. If there is a problem, I don't understand what it is. Can you elaborate?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:46, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I'll try. I'm asking about the possibility of linking directly a Google Books page using an appropriate new parameter (for instance |pageurl=) instead of overloading the functions of the other already existing parameters. --Mauro Lanari (talk) 12:10, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

A |page-url= parameter is problematic because |pages= allows comma separated lists of page numbers. To do it 'properly', I think that we would need to deprecate that form of |pages= so that its only allowed value would be a single page-range (|pages=100–120). We would then need to enumerate both |pagen= and |pagesn= and create matching enumerated |page-urln= and |pages-urln= parameters. For semantic reasons it is desirable to keep |pages= because we shouldn't be using the singular form when identifying a page-range (|page=100–120).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:13, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Really very interesting. Well: maybe (maybe) pagesurl is a false problem. A page-range always corresponds to a chapter or to a page ff, which means that no one is interested in a direct link to the last page. For example so far I have only ever linked the first page, while on the page parameter I have included the full range (pp./pages 100-120, p./page 100 ff and so on). --Mauro Lanari (talk) 14:13, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

There is no requirement that a page-range [shall] always [correspond] to a chapter (or journal article). It is a common practice in bibliographic cites, but in that case, the specific page numbers are stated in the accompanying short cites. cs1|2, as a style, does not limit editors' use of page ranges in that way. For in-line citations, if the source chapter or article includes pages 100–120 but the important bit that supports a statement in our article is on page 105, we should cite the chapter in |chapter= or the journal article in |title= and identify the location as |page=105 not as |pages=100–120. It is poor practice for us to make the reader search an entire article for a sentence or fact that lives on one page.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

As you know, there is substantial disagreement on this point. Kanguole 14:57, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Every useful link to Google Books I have seen in cite templates links |title= to a URL for the page where the citation can be verified. That's the point of linking in citations – helping the reader verify the text in the article. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:09, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

As I said above, by doing so you have overloaded the functions of the other existing parameters instead of adding a new appropriate one. This is an example of how all the info may be supplied in the unfortunately persistent absence of |pageurl=: Graham, Stephen (2008) [1st ed. 2004]. Cities, war, and terrorism. Towards an urban geopolitics. Hoboken, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons. p. 51. ISBN 978-0-470-75302-6. ISBN 0-47075302-1., where the reader is helped in verifying the text in the article (SUV as a "defensive capsule") --Mauro Lanari (talk) 16:23, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Linking to the front cover can only confuse the reader. The ISBN link and the URL link in the page number field are both one click away from the front cover page, and the front cover image is already in the left sidebar of the Google Books page. Just do this (I also removed a redundant ISBN): Graham, Stephen (2008) [2004]. Cities, war, and terrorism. Towards an urban geopolitics. Hoboken, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons. p. 51. ISBN 978-0-470-75302-6. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:35, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

@Kanguole: Last time that there was disagreement over what should be put in |pages=, I unwatched this page. I can easily do that again. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:40, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Linking the front cover is the only correct use of titleurl: "URL of an online location where the text of the publication can be found." It's not provided any further usage, and if you collapse the front cover with the page, you're getting the opposite of what you would like to avoid: confusing the reader. --Mauro Lanari (talk) 17:19, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

There is no |titleurl= parameter, but the next sentence in the documentation for |url= is "If applicable, the link may point to the specific page(s) referenced." The link to the front cover is superfluous, so putting the specific page link in |url= may be inelegant, but is justifiable in terms of the purpose of the citation. Kanguole 17:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I've always thought that where a link to the page is possible (where a preview is available, though it won't be available to all) then the link should be wrapped around the page number. Where no preview is possible, but you still want to point to the book somewhere, then the URL can be usefully wrapped around the title. Doing both is a bit of overkill. Sometimes I think it is not worth the bother, and no links at all is best. It is often more important to start from the front cover of the book, and assess its reliability, before turning to the page you have been directed at. Jumping straight to a page is lazy and encourages people to take things out of context. I hate it when people use search-string URLs - that is discouraged, isn't it? Carcharoth (talk) 18:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Linking the Google Books title page ("About this book") is useful because it verifies the entire citation, in "§ Bibliographic information". I don't think linking to Google Books "About this book" pages is advertising, any more than mentioning the (original) publisher. After all, all citations could be conceivably reduced to just the identifier. That would make them extra-simple. In any case, my preference runs towards short citations; I link the page url at the short form, and often, the book title ("About this book") at the full citation. 72.43.99.146 (talk) 00:35, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

When a reader/user finds a {{cite book}} and sees the title book as a blue link, clicking on it (s)he expects anything but being directed to a specific page, furthermore "out of the context". To have discarded the idea of a |pageurl= parameter for "|url=: if applicable, the link may point to the specific page(s) referenced" is symptomatic of a lazy, confused, twisted mind. --95.234.110.97 (talk) 02:49, 26 August 2016 (UTC)