Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FTFF

FTFF

If you came here because you saw a posting on Ars Technica, the apparent origination of this term, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

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Definition of a message board term catchphrase that is not widely used (948 Google hits, mostly blog posts and duplicates). The useful content could be moved to a Criticism section of Macintosh Finder. Dtcdthingy 02:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- I get 40,800 hits in Google for "FTFF". Some are unrelated, but not 39,852 of them. "FTFF Apple" has 10,800 hits. "FTFF Mac" has 11,300 hits. —Siracusa 02:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge anything useful and redirect. Opabinia regalis 03:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Retain: Wikipedia serves as a valuable tool for looking up unfamiliar acronyms and phrases, to learn what they refer to. FTFF serves as a unifying mantra for a large number of Mac users, some of whom have a great deal of influence in the Mac technical community, and the rallying cry has taken on a life of its own, beyond mere "finder criticism", a term which doesn't begin to capture the emotion evoked by "FTFF". It is something of an umbrella term, encompassing many areas of concern with the current finder, and so the article could stand to be expanded and clarified. But there's no reason to remove it altogether --jacobolus (t) 07:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it does not. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. What you are looking for, for looking up the meanings of words and phrases, is a dictionary. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The dictionary is over there. Uncle G 09:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, it does. FTFF perhaps deserves an entry at Wiktionary giving the definition alone, but it should be pretty blatantly obvious that there's more to FTFF than just a definition. It is thus worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. Keep per User:jacobolus and User:Horbal. Alwarren@ucsd.edu 04:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - Wrong. Again: The tool for looking up the meanings of words and phrases is a dictionary. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Our articles are about people, places, concepts, events, and things. Encyclopaedic content about the Macintosh Finder, including a discussion of user requests for its improvement, belongs in Macintosh Finder (broken out in Wikipedia:Summary style into a sub-article if it becomes too long). Having such encyclopaedic content under this title is as absurd as having the encyclopaedia article about Muhammad Ali under the title I am the greatest. Please see our Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Uncle G 13:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - FTFF is not just a phrase, it is also a concept. It represents the idea that a large group of users of a particular product who have a common criticism of it can coin a phrase/acronym that espouses said criticism in the hopes that their request - however rudely put - will be heard. FTFF is damn near a movement in parts of the Mac community, and is separated from being purely a simplistic word or phrase by this fact (not to mention it is a cry that has remained apparently unheard by Apple for years now, but one day will be addressed, and as such will make up an interesting aspect of the development of the Mac OS X operating system, and maybe the FTFF page will end up with a happy ending). Silic0n 13:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        No. The thing is Macintosh Finder, and the concept is the set of people's opinions on that thing. Per our Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy, which is non-negotiable, articles may not promote particular opinions. Opinions on the Finder range across a spectrum. Any encyclopaedic reporting of those opinions belongs in the article on the thing that those opinions relate to, Macintosh Finder. Uncle G 14:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge — definition to List of Internet slang phrases M a rtinp23 10:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, not used often enough even for a merge to the internet slang phrases article. Recury 16:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- If this is going to be ~~kept~~ retained, it will need to add verifiable sources. This page has some good guidelines on what Wikipedia considers reliable. If none are available, then we have to delete. Recury 03:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - What's a "verifiable source" for something like this? Is the argument really that it doesn't exist or was made up for the benefit of Wikipedia? I don't understand this objection. As far as I know, there is no contested information in the entry. John Siracusa 04:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - The contested information would be the coinage claims and the claims that this is a big deal among Mac users along with their specific complaints. Read the links I posted for more info on what kind of sources to use, especially the part about using forum posts as sources. They do a better job of explaining all this than I would. Recury 13:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - A source would be a previously published journal article, book, magazine feature article, or suchlike, that discusses user suggestions to improve the Macintosh Finder in depth, and that is written by someone wholly independent of those users. If indeed "Wikipedia [...] is the [...] only [...] place to get a concise explanation of the term.", as stated on the discussion forum linked to above, then this article violates our Wikipedia:No original research policy. Wikipedia is not a publisher of first instance. It is not here for the purpose of documenting things that are not documented anywhere else. It is an encyclopaedia, a tertiary source. Uncle G 14:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per Opabinia regalis. —dima ^/sb.tk/ 20:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I have never seen this before. If you want to look stuff like that go to urban dictionary. Dev920 21:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Neologism. Lauren 23:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- So the word "neologism" itself gets a page, but not a purported example of a neologism? —Siracusa 02:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Exactly. The concept of neologisms is notable - we're all using recently established words daily. Examples of such can be discussed in the neologism article, and notable neologisms may get an article of their own. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - So explain why this one is not "notable." -- John Siracusa 11:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Retain: This may not appear in a generic "jargon file" or "urban dictionary" because it's so specific to a particular subculture. Merging it with another related page has the disadvantage of decreasing the visibility of the information. As an individual page and search result, it's succinct and to the point. I often google for "wikipedia mysearchterm" these days because the wikipedia page is usually the most concise and straightforward information source. If I had to wade through an already large "Finder" page scanning for occurrences of "FTFF," it'd be a less efficient and less pleasant experience. Retain and cross-link, not merge. This is the web, not real estate. There's little cost to a separate page, and many benefits. —Siracusa 02:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- User Siracusa has made 17 edits since March 2006, most to this AfD. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Retain: "FTFF" is more than an acronym or mere neologism, it encompasses and accurately identifies a particular sub-cultural movement. It might even be considered a sort of rallying cry or pass-mot among Macintosh users. Furthrmore, this entry is clearly more detailed than a dictionary definition and well-written to boot. Keep it. Horbal 03:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to make it clear. This is not a definition and I don't see anything in the "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" link cited by Uncle G above that renders this article objectionable. If Where's the beef?, d'oh!, All your base are belong to us and Beam me up, Scotty can have entries, then so should FTFF. The difference is only a matter of degree. But if Wikipedia's goal is comprehensiveness and inclusiveness, this is no reason to eliminate a perfectly valid entry, simply because it may be relatively obscure. As Siracusa said, this is the web, not real estate. Horbal 03:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information --Dtcdthingy 04:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - I see nothing in that guideline that forbids this entry. John Siracusa 04:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - Nor do I. Alwarren@ucsd.edu 04:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - Sorry, that article is poorly written. The list contains some specific examples of how the guideline may be applied, which is confusing, but I was referring to the guideline in general. --Dtcdthingy 05:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        So how does this general guideline apply in this specific case? What is your argument? (beyond your earlier contention that FTFF is "not widely used") -- John Siracusa 05:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        
        Then I assume you are quoting that guideline for its title? If so, there is nothing "wikt:indiscriminate" about this entry. The entry is written well and, IMO, covers a valid topic. Horbal 13:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- User Horbal has made 16 edits since October 2004. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - ^^ Ironically, most of the reason for my infrequent attempts to contribute is that I hate wasting my time contributing to something only to have self-appointed wiki-police (obviously with more time on their hands) shout it down. Horbal 13:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- "If foo, bar, and baz have articles, then so should this" is an old argument that just doesn't fly. We're discussing notability of this article. Feel free to nominate any of those for deletion if you feel they are worthless. But in those cases, their notability can be established easily. Can it, in this case? --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think the "notability" of this term is well-established. It is practically a term of art in the Mac world. It has existed for over three years. It is well-known and often used, and debated among Mac users across the entire net. As for arguing that this entry should stay because other, similar entries exist and are not contested, that's at least a stronger argument than attempting to diminish the comments of others by "rating" them based on the number of comments they've made to Wikipedia, which wwwwolf has done throughout this page. -- John Siracusa 12:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - But I don't think any of those articles are worthless! I'm merely pointing them out as analogues to this one. They explain an idiom to the uninitiated, much like this entry does. Quite frankly, I don't see the difference, other than degree of popularity and, again, I never realized Wikipedia was a popularity contest. What's the point of that? Horbal 13:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Retain: FTFF must stay until they FTFF. Then the issue is moot. Silic0n 03:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- User Silic0n has made 20 edits since November 2005. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Apologies, I had no idea that your opinion is irrelevant if you spend more time reading Wikipedia than editing it Silic0n 13:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Uncle G 14:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Retain - per jacobolus. josh~~buddy, talk 03:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)~~[reply]

Merge or Retain - it is useful if a Wikipedia search for a term at least points to the definition expected, especially for technical terms Bombcar 03:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retain - The entry is succinct and informative. It is a useful reference to which Mac users (new and old) can be referred to learn about criticisms of the current Macintosh Finder, and itself refers to further reading. Ravi Pokala 03:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User Ravi_Pokala has made 4 edits since February 2006. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retain -- FTFF is immediately recognizable even to those, like me, who are not Power Mac users. I am just a Mac guy, and I have known what this term has meant for years. -- Unsigned comment by User:69.180.180.174

In the edit history for this page, there appears to be some conflict over John being "the most well-known user of this term." Also in the history, John claims "I've used the term exactly once that I can recall (in my Tiger review), and only in reference to its use by others." I see no proof that John is "the most well-known user" of FTFF and frankly find the banner spanning the top of this page to be 1) intellectually offensive, and 2) a dishonest attempt to sway discussion. While it could be argued that John's post to ArsTechnica is an equally dishonest attempt to sway discussion, two wrongs do not make a right. Alwarren@ucsd.edu 06:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retain - This needs to stay because until the Finder is improved, OSX will not be truly complete, and Apple has been lazy, it's symbolic of continued pressure on them to fix it. col_kurtz
— Possible single purpose account: Col_kurtz (talk • contribs) has made little or no other contributions outside this topic.--wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
He's the originator of the term. Feel free to contact him offline or confirm this for yourself by searching the net for the earliest occurrence of the term. -- John Siracusa 12:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Uncle G 14:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retain or Merge - It's a succinct explanation of technical jargon, condensing years of back-and-forth discussion into a few paragraphs. The term is frequently used, and having it available as a separate article is likely useful. It would be a shame to lose such a thorough, yet short, explanation. If you must pull it into the Macintosh entry, that would be acceptable, but perhaps suboptimal. It's of high interest to a subset of people looking up information about the Macintosh, but not all of them. Added in a second edit: wwwwolf is playing games by 'rating' users based on their number of contributions, and mostly for people he disagrees with. Argue on merits, not on users. Malor
User Malor has made 5 edits since January 2006. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He's not playing games. That is how the AFD process works, established users' opinions are given more weight because they are more familiar with Wikipedia's policies. The opinions of users who came here because of a forum post to vote are given much less weight. Recury 13:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would be a shame to lose such a thorough, yet short, explanation. — Then please cite sources, where this "technical jargon" and the "movement" that it represents have been documented in detail by a reliable source outside of Wikipedia and independent of the proponents of the "movement", to demonstrate that this is not original research. The article cites no sources at all, currently. Uncle G 14:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Sourced criticism on Finder and comments on users' frustration might be welcome in Macintosh Finder article. As the article stands now, it looks, sounds, and smells like a political/activisim tool to pressure Apple, which is echoed in above comments too ("Merging it with another related page has the disadvantage of decreasing the visibility of the information", "FTFF must stay until they FTFF. Then the issue is moot"). Which is useless, of course, I'm sure Apple can't be pressured just with a random Wikipedia article and blog/message board comments that are harshly critical to them. =/ We should therefore consider this in relation to some other political/activist slogans. This isn't quite up there in historical significance with "read my lips..." --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The entry is explanatory and informative. It is not advocacy. The visibility that I cited aids people who want to know what it means and learn the history behind it. Like any topic where there are strong feelings, there will be those who want to use the entry for advocacy. That can be (and has been) handled as usual, with edits to entry itself that maintain its neutrality. The potential for conflict in no way disqualifies the topic as a valid Wikipedia page. -- John Siracusa 12:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Wwwwolf; protologism and astroturfing. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia describes "astroturfing" as "formal public relations projects which deliberately seek to engineer the impression of spontaneous, grassroots behavior." FTFF had entirely informal origins. The proliferation off FTFF was not caused by one person or an organized cabal. It was hard to even track down the person who originally coined the term. FTFF did not even appear in a "formal" article on the site whose forums spawned it until over two years after it was coined. It is an actual grassroots phenomenon, not something posing as one. -- John Siracusa 12:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retain This is, indeed, a well known criticism of Mac OS X. It would be a shame to see it deleted from the Wiki. -- User:87.3.203.66

Keep It's apple sub-culture, but it's absolutely out there and it's a valid criticism.

Retain: Is Wikipedia a repository of knowledge or not? If terms such as FTFF don't belong in an encyclopedia, could someone explain why phrases like All your base are belong to us (A.K.A AYBABTU) are still here? The fact is that there are countless useful terms that originated in message boards which can be readily found in Wikipedia. Why is this one in particular not appropriate? Is it because some of you were not familiar with it? If that's the case, all the more reason to retain it :-) GhostInTheShell