Module talk:Citation/CS1/Archive 12

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Author parsing

So after the latest blowup over template changes, I think adopting the "vauthors=" mechanism from Template:Vcite2 journal is worth serious consideration. The current approach is very unambiguous, but having the first and last name of every author as a separate parameter makes for very bloated markup, and it's definitely a burden on those of us who are still hand-typing citations. I support the goal of making our references into something semantically meaningful, because I think that many useful tools for article curation could be built if we had a reliable way of identifying which articles were supported by which references, which journals, books, authors, etc. But the content has to come first: if the semantic markup scheme is deterring authors from editing, there is a serious problem. In the big picture, it's much more important to have people identify sources in medical articles as being WP:MEDRS (or not) than it is for those references to emit correct metadata. (I think the medical articles tend to be a bigger friction point because they often have very large author lists that bloat enormously.)

So, is it possible to graft the parsing code for "vauthors=" onto the "authors=" parameter here? I assume "authors=" already dumps its entire string as a single author into the COinS metadata, so it's unlikely to make things worse. And is it possible to parse "et al." or "''et al.''" at the end of that string without needing explicit markup? I have enough experience of HTML parsing to know that this kind of "do what I mean" parsing is risky, but given the debacle of the Visual Editor rollout, we're going to have to cope with hand-writing these templates for quite a while. Explicitly marking up every author may be less prone to error, but this isn't the first time there has been pushback about this, and I think this solution might make the process of structuring references a lot less objectionable. Choess (talk) 02:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I haven't given the question of how would |vauthors= parsing work within Module:Citation/CS1 a great deal of thought but I'm pretty sure that it could be done. And it would produce better metadata because a requirement of |vauthors= would be that author (and editor) name lists would be required to adhere to the Vancouver system. Because |authors= does not have that kind of requirement, a wide variety of formats can be found.

Module:Citation/CS1 already recognizes a variety of et al. forms. It is that recognition that causes the population of Category:CS1 maint: Explicit use of et al. That same recognition strips the et al. from the author and editor lists before they are sent to metadata and causes the module to render the author and editor lists with the standardized form of et al. appended. The cs1|2 templates' remit includes handling and placement of static text but it is necessary to have a proper and consistent mechanism to inform the template when it should render certain static text. This is why we have |display-authors=etal.

When editors feel free to add non-author-name text et al. to author-name parameters, I think that they then feel free to add other non-author-name text to author-name parameters in spite of instruction to the contrary in all cs1|2 documentation. Et al. is relatively easy to detect and compensate for; other text, not so easy; if it were, I'd have a category full of pages that have such cs1|2 template parameters.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 09:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Redirect this page to Help talk:Citation Style 1?

Should we redirect this page to Help talk:Citation Style 1? That page is watched by 160 editors, while this one is watched by only 60, and they are essentially the same forum. I think we should have just one discussion location for issues relating to the CS1 templates. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I would support this.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:33, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Given the above discussion occurred, absolutely. --Izno (talk) 19:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

And see the proposals below. I support the redirect. Just merge the existing discussions into the talk over there, if still active, archive them otherwise.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:15, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Et al 3

Please see this thread at the Helpdesk. The author name Sheetal is being rendered as She et al. in {{citation}}. Something to do with the regex for et al., apparently. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 18:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec) For details, compare:

• {{citation |first=Sheetal |last=Ranjan |chapter=Crimes Against Women in India |editor-first=N. Prabha |editor-last=Unnithan |title=Crime and Justice in India |year=2013 |publisher=SAGE Publications |isbn=978-8-13210-977-8 |url=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=k_6HAwAAQBAJ}}
• Ranjan, Sheetal (2013), "Crimes Against Women in India", in Unnithan, N. Prabha (ed.), Crime and Justice in India, SAGE Publications, ISBN 978-8-13210-977-8

This is evidently caused by the over-eager regexp in the following code line:

local pattern = ",? *'*[Ee][Tt] *[Aa][Ll][%.']*$"

which will recognize an "et al" mark even if it has neither a space between the two words nor a word boundary before it. Could we have a "\w" check or something of the sort built in to the beginning of that regexp to avoid this?

Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Specifically, I'd recommend replacing ",? *" with "(, *| +)" (i.e. either a comma plus optional space, or at least one space to separate the "et al" string from the preceding text). Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:53, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Lua doesn't support the regex alternation |operator. Fixed in the sandbox I think:

Citation comparison

Wikitext	{{citation|chapter-url=//books.google.co.uk/books?id=k_6HAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA249|chapter=Crimes Against Women in India|editor-first=N. Prabha|editor-last=Unnithan|first=Sheetal|isbn=978-8-13210-977-8|last=Ranjan|publisher=SAGE Publications|title=Crime and Justice in India|year=2013}}
Live	Ranjan, Sheetal (2013), "Crimes Against Women in India", in Unnithan, N. Prabha (ed.), Crime and Justice in India, SAGE Publications, ISBN 978-8-13210-977-8
Sandbox	Ranjan, Sheetal (2013), "Crimes Against Women in India", in Unnithan, N. Prabha (ed.), Crime and Justice in India, SAGE Publications, ISBN 978-8-13210-977-8

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Hm. Like practically everything else that happens here, you are talking in cryptic terms that simply fly over the head of most people. Does fixing in the sandbox mean that there is going to be a proper fix or am I supposed to work it out by deploying whatever hack you did there? Female infanticide in India stills shows the error. - Sitush (talk) 19:56, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

The sandbox is the development environment for the citation templates. Changes are introduced and tested there, typically after a discussion like this one. Once the changes have been tested, the changes are moved to the main module, which makes them active in the templates. Because the citation templates are used millions of times in articles, the main module code is changed only once every few months. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Your response makes sense, although I'd query the testing bit given the number of bug reports that seem to appear here ;) - Sitush (talk) 01:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Et al 2

In English, abbreviations are set off with a comma, e.g. like this. This applies to "et al." equally, i.e. Smith, Jones, et al. When used with two or more names, the APA style expects it, viz. http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/11/the-proper-use-of-et-al-in-apa-style.html. Similarly for Grammarist. As does ICMJE. Chicago says to use a comma unless there's only one name written in full. That's everybody except Trappist the monk, so I've restored my edit. Any third opinions? --RexxS (talk) 22:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

When I reverted your edit, in my edit summary I wrote: cs1|2 not bound by ICMJE; historically, cs1|2 has not used a comma before et al.

I've written this before: cs1|2 are not APA, are not Chicago, are not Bluebook, are not LSA, are not ICMJE, nor are they any other style. Certainly cs1|2 have been influenced by these styles but are not beholden to them.

Here is a simple {{cite book/old}} using {{citation/core}}. It has nine authors so it generates et al. in place of the ninth:

Author1; Author2; Author3; Author4; Author5; Author6; Author7; Author8 et al. Title. 

This form has been in place since this edit to {{citation/core}} on 7 October 2009. That style continues in use to the present day in Module:Citation/CS1.

In the edit summary of your revert of my revert you wrote: not bound by your preferences either - see talk. I have made no claim of personal preference with regards to a comma preceding et al.; if you can show where I have, please do so, otherwise, please do not put words into my mouth that I have not spoken.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

RexxS has made a bold edit, and that edit has been reverted. Now we discuss. That's how WP works. Let's not have an edit war in a sandbox.

One of the things that we typically do on this page, or on Help talk:Citation Style 1, which is watched by more editors and serves as a better place to discuss changes to the module, is suggest a change and show some examples of how the change would be implemented. Then the change, if it meets with approval (or at least tentative approval, or perhaps aggressive lack of interest, or outright ambivalence), can be implemented in the sandbox and examples of the before/after rendering can be shown.

A suggestion has been made to insert a comma before "et al." in author and editor lists. Shall we attempt to implement that change in the sandbox and then display some test cases here to see if it works as intended? – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

One of the problems that besets Wikipedia is that it is being fossilised by editors who insist that "we have done it this way in the past" is an argument against any change. It isn't any argument at all. @Trappist the monk: Your revert summary made two points, neither of which provided any objective reason why it would be better to have no separator before " et al." Your argument is clearly then nothing more than your personal preference, and I make no apologies for pointing that out to you. I have provided multiple objective reasons: the use of commas before abbreviations is standard English grammar; all other style guides that I know of require a comma. I know we're not obliged to follow other style guides, but a lack of obligation to do something is poor excuse for not doing it, and I'd ask why you would not want to adopt a style that was consistent with what readers see in almost every other serious publication? --RexxS (talk) 11:58, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Do not presume to think that I am opposed to change; I am not. For evidence of that look at the history of this module; read Help talk:Citation Style 1 and its archives.

Lest you continue to put words into my mouth that I have not spoken, let me definitively state my position with regards to punctuation preceding et al.: I am neither in favor of nor opposed to punctuation preceding et al. in editor- and author-name-lists; in short, I do not care.

If the community are content to have et al. rendered without preceding punctuation, then I accept that. If the community determines though discussion that cs1|2 should render et al. with preceding punctuation, then I accept that.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support – The only argument presented above for not including a serial comma before "et al." is that it hasn't been since 7 October 2009 which is not a strong argument. Furthermore the removal of the comma was apparently made with no discussion. As journal style guides overwhelming support including a comma, the argument in favor is much stronger. Boghog (talk) 03:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Partial support: I think that "Smith, Alan; Brown, Jane; et al." makes sense. In the standard CS1 style, I support changing to use a semicolon before "et al.", not a comma, because other authors are separated from one another by semicolons. If the separator of choice is a comma (i.e. |mode=cs2|name-list-format=vanc), then use a comma before "et al." – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:39, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

  |mode= does not change the style of separators used in the author and editor name lists:

  |mode=cs1:

  Last1, First1; Last2, First2; Last3, First3; Last4, First4. Title.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

  |mode=cs2:

  Last1, First1; Last2, First2; Last3, First3; Last4, First4, Title{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

  but |name-list-format=vanc does:

  Last1, First1; Last2, First2; Last3, First3; Last4, First4. Title. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |name-list-format= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) – the error here because the example uses enumerated names

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Good point. A semicolon should be used unless |name-list-format=vanc or |mode=cs2 in which case a comma should be used. Boghog (talk) 04:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I corrected myself above. I'm not used to these new formatting parameters, but I knew there was some way to have commas separating names. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The new |vauthors= and |veditors= cause the module to rewrite their content as a last-first list and then render it in Vancouver system style without requiring |name-list-format=vanc.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:05, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Partial support per Joensey95 for consistency with the existing formatting and how this is done in other style guides. Imzadi 1979 → 04:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Serial comma is the norm here, and so far no real objections have been raised. "Standard English grammar" is of course a red herring, as these are citations rather than sentences. My only concern would be to clarify usage when combining individuals with corporate authors. LeadSongDog come howl! 12:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Moved to Help talk:Citation Style 1 § separator preceding et al. static text

Error message

Where can I find the error message saying that if I provide an archive-url, I also need to provide an archive-date? Debresser (talk) 01:31, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

In Module:Citation/CS1 search for the string local Archived. A couple of lines below that is: ArchiveDate = set_error('archive_missing_date');. archive_missing_date is defined in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 02:12, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Or you can see it in action here:

"web page title". {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |archive-date= (help)

Is that what you wanted? – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:02, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I was looking for the string "|archiveurl= requires |archivedate=" Or it doesn't work like that?

In any case, it should be "|archive-url= requires |archive-date=" Can somebody fix that? Debresser (talk) 12:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Fixed in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox. Also fixed |archive-url= requires |url=, Check |author-link= value, and |display-editors= suggested.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:21, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Also fixed access-date, archive-date, doi-broken-date, lay-date, and publication-date in the call to dates() in Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Reprinted ed.

Hi,

Just noticed, on Thomas Lodge, that I get a CS1 warning about "Extra text" for a Cite book with the param "|edition=reprinted". I imagine this is not the intended behaviour. :-)

• Tenney, Edward Andrews (1969) [1935]. Thomas Lodge. Cornell Studies in English. Vol. 26 (reprinted ed.). Ithaca, N.Y.: Russell & Russell. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Cheers, Xover (talk) 09:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Fixed in the sandbox.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:42, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's add a collaboration parameter.

Large science projects will very often have massive list of authors. See for example, the 2012 Review of Particle Physics list of authors. The usual way of citing these massive collaboration is typically to have "J. Smith et al. (Collaboration name)" or similar (for an Wikipedia example, see [1].) This is usually achieve with the less-than-desirable a)

 |author1=W.-M. Yao ([[Particle Data Group]])
 |author2=...
 |display-authors=1
 |year=2012
 

which yields the broken/incorrect W.-M. Yao (Particle Data Group) et al. (2012), or sometimes with b)

 |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M.
 |last2=... |first2=...
 |coauthors=et al. ([[Particle Data Group]])
 |year=2012

which yields a correct Yao, W.-M et al. (Particle Data Group) (2012), and other similar hacks.

The real/best solution would to add a |collaboration= that would allow to write c)

 |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M.
 |last2=... |first2=...
 |display-authors=1
 |collaboration=[[Particle Data Group]]

or alternatively d)

 |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M.
 |last2=... |first2=...
 |display-authors=1
 |collaboration=Particle Data Group |collaboration-link=Particle Data Group

in order to generate the correct Yao, W.-M et al. (Particle Data Group) (2012).

This should apply across the board, in both {{citation}} and {{cite xxx}} styles. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 19:45, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

You can now do |last1 = Yao |first1=W.-M. |display-authors=etal rather than |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M. |last2=... |first2=... |display-authors=1. --Izno (talk) 16:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but that's not really relevant to the collaboration parameter. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 01:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Which is why I marked it up with a small?... I suppose I could have done a <aside>...</aside> to be all Html 5-groovy... --Izno (talk) 03:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Discussions like this should be at Help talk:Citation Style 1. The Module talk:Citation/CS1 talk page is for discussion of how to code up the consensuses arrived at over there.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:11, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

I really, really doubt anyone would oppose this. The current options (A and B, above) cannot possibly be what consensus wants. The only thing tricky bit would be whether we want a |collaboration= + |collaboration-link=, but personally I would leave that to template coders to decide on.Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Any updates on this? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 02:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)