Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 9

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urls in |title=

Per this discussion, this discussion, and this discucssion, I have added a test that finds external wikilinks within the content of |title=. I expect to add calls to this same test for |chapter= and |website=. Templates that fail the test are added to Category:CS1 errors: external links

{{cite book/new |title=[//example.com Title]}}

Title. {{cite book}}: External link in |title= (help)

{{cite book/new |title=[http://example.com Title]}}

Title. {{cite book}}: External link in |title= (help)

External wikilink with leading text:

{{cite book/new |title=Leading text [http://example.com Title]}}

Leading text Title. {{cite book}}: External link in |title= (help)

External wikilink with trailing text:

{{cite book/new |title=[http://example.com Title] trailing text}}

Title trailing text. {{cite book}}: External link in |title= (help)

External wikilink with leading and trailing text:

{{cite book/new |title=Leading text [http://example.com Title] trailing text}}

Leading text Title trailing text. {{cite book}}: External link in |title= (help)

The external wikilink must be protocol relative or have valid scheme (uses much the same test as is newly implemented for url tests):

{{cite book/new |title=[8http://example.com Title]}}

[8http://example.com Title]. {{cite book}}: External link in |title= (help)

The external wikilink must be complete:

{{cite book/new |title=[http://example.com Title}}

[http://example.com Title. {{cite book}}: External link in |title= (help)

{{cite book/new |title=http://example.com Title]}}

http://example.com Title]. {{cite book}}: External link in |title= (help)

The limitations of the test as just described mean that it does not answer the challenge posed here. I chose a vague error message so that should we decide to change the test to find urls, not just external wikilinks, in parameter values, we can do so without needing to change messaging and categorization.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:27, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

An external link on the whole title can obviously be replaced by |url=, but this change is going to prevent editors from making external links on only part of a title. I don't know of a valid use case for doing that, but maybe there is one. Before making this change, is there any way to search for the citations that already have links on part of but not the whole title, so that we can judge whether any of them are appropriate? —David Eppstein (talk) 22:31, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

This search string should answer: insource:/\| *title *=[^\|\}]*http/ but it doesn't. The regex works in AWB but is not working for me as an insource: search. This search string: insource:/\| *title *=[\|\}]*http/ at least returns |title=http...

The reason for this test is that external links (as external links, not plain text) in |title= corrupt the metadata. This is why we have |url=.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:09, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but I'm primarily concerned about being able to generate a correct rendering of all valid citations, and only secondarily concerned about generating proper metadata for them. So if this change prevents us from formatting valid citations that happen to include external links in only part of the title, then it's a bad thing, even if it also constrains the citations in such a way as to make it easier to generate valid metadata. In this particular case, it seems likely enough that there are no valid citations that we'd be breaking, but I'm not certain of that, and you haven't convinced me that you have any evidence of that either. So running a search that would find them would be helpful, if we could get such a search to work. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:18, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps it is working, sort of. insource:/\| *title *=[^\|\}]*http/ finds four results (it should find a lot more). The regex means:

Find a pipe, zero or more spaces, the string 'title', zero or more spaces, an equal sign, zero or more characters that are not a pipe or closing curly brace, and the string 'http'.

That means it should find |title=http.... It didn't, but it did find these (none of which are cs1|2):

| title = [http://www.google.com/patents/US2615129 Synchro-Cyclotron]

|title=Jamaica by-election (April 13, 2005): Kingston West<ref>http://www.eoj.com.jm/content-70-243.htm</ref>

|title = Surrey County Council election results, 2009, Guildford<ref>Sources: http://www1.surreycc.gov.uk/election2009/</ref>

|title=2014 Minnesota Legislature - House District 39A<ref>http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/Results/StateRepresentative/20?districtid=431</ref>

If we can presume that the search tool works well enough to find these where the url occurs after the beginning of |title= then that may mean that cs1|2 templates that have urls embedded midway or at the end of |title= do not exist.

That leaves us with urls that begin the |title=parameter value. For that, this search string:

insource:/\| *title *= *http/ (c. 290 hits)

This search string finds external wikilinks at the beginning of the |title= value:

insource:/\| *title *= *\[http/ (c. 150 hits)

These are the type of url-in-title that the test is currently configured to catch.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:26, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I generally support this error check. I believe that due to the uncertainty that exists in describing this situation, the failure of the insource search, and the wide variety of weirdness that editors put into citation templates, we should either hide this error message by default and/or have this check result in a maintenance message rather than a red error message. I think that we are going to see some false positives. I think that our credibility is diminished when we roll out code to all readers that shows errors for valid text like |edition=Illustrated, as we have recently done, and I think this particular check has a high likelihood of doing that.

One note about the terminology used in this discussion section: I believe that on WP, "wikilink" means a link to an article within WP, while "external link" means a link (generally a URL) that leads outside of WP. See Help:Link#Wikilinks and Help:Link#External_links. I do not think that the phrase "external wikilink" used above has a valid meaning on WP. Let's be clear in our use of language. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:41, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

If that's all this check dug up, I'm happy enough with this new restriction. I don't think any of those are good uses of external links in titles. BTW, re the above comment: I was assuming that "external link" meant single-bracketed links and that "wikilink" meant double-bracketed links. The double-bracketed kind usually stay within WP but not always; for instance, it's possible to use double-bracket syntax for doi or arXiv links. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I've looked at about 50 of the c. 150 pages returned by the insource:/\| *title *= *\[http/ search. Of those, I found three where the |title= value was more than just an external wikilink:

{{cite web|last=Flexible Plug and Play website |title=[http://www.flexibleplugandplay.co.uk/ Flexible Plug and Play]''accessed 18 October 2012}}

Flexible Plug and Play website. "Flexible Plug and Playaccessed 18 October 2012". {{cite web}}: External link in |title= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)

{{cite web | last =FamilySearch.org | first = | coauthors = | title = [https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/K42Z-L65 1940 US Census] and [https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KYFC-72S  United States Public Records Index] | publisher =FamilySearch.org | | url = |accessdate = 12 March 2014 }}

FamilySearch.org. "1940 US Census and United States Public Records Index". FamilySearch.org. {{cite web}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |1= and |coauthors= (help); External link in |title= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)

{{cite press release |title=[http://www.letu.edu/_Other-Resources/presidents_office/about.html]
 LeTourneau University Names New President |publisher=LeTourneau University |date=2007-03-08 |url=http://www.letu.edu/opencms/opencms/_Other-Resources/presidents_office/news/presAnnouncement.html |accessdate=2007-08-09}}

"[http://www.letu.edu/_Other-Resources/presidents_office/about.html] LeTourneau University Names New President" (Press release). LeTourneau University. 2007-03-08. Retrieved 2007-08-09. {{cite press release}}: External link in |title= (help); line feed character in |title= at position 68 (help)

In each of the cases above, the templates are clearly malformed or misused.

I chose to use the term 'external wikilink' because the code is looking for urls formatted with wiki markup: opening square bracket, url, optional link-label text, closing square bracket. I used this term to distinguish that form of url from a plain url or external link (one without the wiki markup).

I did consider maintenance rather than errors but chose error because:

url-in-title corrupts the metadata
url-in-title can trigger access-date-requires-url errors
for {{cite web}} url-in-title triggers missing-or-empty-url errors
for other templates, url-in-title can trigger format-requires-url errors
automatic pdf format annotation doesn't work when the url is part of title

If the insource search results are to be believed, there aren't enough url-in-title errors to warrant hiding them.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:VPT is your friend:

insource:title insource:http insource:/\| *title *=[^\|\}]*http/

That search string first finds pages with the strings 'title' and 'http' and then does the regex search on those pages. However, more results aren't necessarily better results. In the first page of results, these:

{{cite web | url= | title=http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/documents/Callaghan_NASP_Consolidation.pdf Neighbourhood Area Structure Plan (Office Consolidation) | publisher=City of Edmonton | date=March 2011 | accessdate=2012-06-08}}

"http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/documents/Callaghan_NASP_Consolidation.pdf Neighbourhood Area Structure Plan (Office Consolidation)". City of Edmonton. March 2011. {{cite web}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); External link in |title= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)

{{cite web|title=The Beverly clock|type=Abstract|journal= [[European Journal of Physics]]|publisher=IOPscience|title=http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/5/4/002}}

"http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/5/4/002". European Journal of Physics (Abstract). IOPscience. {{cite web}}: External link in |title= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)

clearly, both malformed. But, the search also finds stuff like this:

<ref>[http://stljazznotes.blogspot.com/2014/07/bull-of-heaven-performing-at-lnac-this.html|title=St. Louis Jazz Notes: Bull of Heaven performing at LNAC this Saturday, August 2]</ref><ref>[http://news.allaboutjazz.com/jazz-this-week-st-louis-cabaret-festival-bull-of-heaven-all-that-tap-xxiii-and-more.php|title=Jazz This Week: St. Louis Cabaret Festival, Bull of Heaven, "All That Tap Xxiii," and More]</ref>

which is also clearly broken but outside the cs1|2 remit.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I have added code that also checks |chapter= and |work=:

{{cite book/new |title=Title |chapter=[//example.com Chapter]}}

"Chapter". Title. {{cite book}}: External link in |chapter= (help)

{{cite journal/new |title=Title |journal=[//example.com Journal]}}

"Title". Journal. {{cite journal}}: External link in |journal= (help)

The test can handle all three in the same template:

{{cite encyclopedia/new |title=Title |article=[//example.com Article] |encyclopedia=[//example.com Encyclopedia]}}

"Article". Title. Encyclopedia. {{cite encyclopedia}}: External link in |article=, |encyclopedia=, and |title= (help)

The error message lists the 'prime' (for lack of a better term) alias. Is there some way to mark the prime alias in an error message that tells readers that the message for this parameter may be aliased? For instance, |work= could be |newspaper=, |journal=, |encyclopedia=, ... We might tweak the error message so that it reads:

External link in |<work>=

External link in <|work=>

External link in |work=

Other, better ideas?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:16, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

How do you suppress errors when titles are missing?

For instance, in the PMNS matrix article, we have citations such as

*{{cite journal
 |last1=Pontecorvo |first1=B.
 |year=1957
 |title=Mesonium and anti-mesonium
 |journal=[[Zhurnal Éksperimental’noĭ i Teoreticheskoĭ Fiziki]]
 |volume=33 |pages=549–551
 |bibcode=
 |doi=
}} reproduced and translated in {{cite journal
 |last1=<!----> |first1=<!---->
 |year=1957
 |title=<!---->
 |journal=[[Soviet Physics JETP]]
 |volume=6 |pages=429
 |bibcode=
 |doi=
}}

Giving out

Pontecorvo, B. (1957). "Mesonium and anti-mesonium". Zhurnal Éksperimental’noĭ i Teoreticheskoĭ Fiziki. 33: 549–551. reproduced and translated in Soviet Physics JETP. 6: 429. 1957. {{cite journal}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

There's no reason why this should be considered invalid. How do you suppress the error message? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:34, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Each citation template is a stand-alone object that produces stand-alone metadata. While the text "reproduced and translated in" visually connects the two in the article, there is no such connection in the metadata because there is no inter-template communication.

If both journal articles were consulted when writing PMNS matrix, then both templates should have all of the required information and both used separately. If only one journal article was consulted for PMNS matrix then only that template is required (the other, completed template could be added to §Further reading or similar section – perhaps with a note identifying it as the original or the translation).

When the article's citation style dictates it, you can use |title=none in {{cite journal}} and {{citation}} when |journal= is set to suppress the error message. It is my belief that this sort of shorthand is inappropriate because it leaves the metadata incomplete.

The parameters |language=; |script-title= for the original language and/or |title= for a transliterated title; and |trans-title= for the translated title would be appropriate for the first (original language) template.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:16, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

This rigid attitude is driving people away from using the citation templates, with the result that no metadata at all is produced. For example, my recommendation here (as I have used and seen in several other articles) would be to manually format the second part of the citation (where this article appears in translation, or in some other cases where it appears in an edited volume of journal reprints) since our citation templates are unable to produce elided citations in an appropriate format, the appearance to our readers should be a much higher priority than the quality of the metadata, and (as evidenced above) our template software maintainer is unwilling to fix the problem. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:53, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. And see WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 23:37, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I would be so glad if |title=none worked as claimed, but, hmmm [looking at “Jones (1957). "none". {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)”], it doesn't. And you seem to have missed the implication that if the metadata must always be complete, then only those sources with complete metadata - more precisely, complete COinS metadata - can be cited. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:05, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

But it does work when you use |title=none in {{cite journal}} and {{citation}} when |journal= is set. Rewriting your example as cs1:

{{cite journal |last1=Jones |year=1957 |title=none |journal=Journal}}

Jones (1957). Journal.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: untitled periodical (link)

and as cs2:

{{citation |last1=Jones |year=1957 |title=none |journal=Journal}}

Jones (1957), Journal{{citation}}: CS1 maint: untitled periodical (link)

Yes, I know that the metadata for such citations is incomplete and as such I don't care for this 'style' (which apparently really exists in some scholarly communities). I could have chosen to omit mention this functionality in my first post in this discussion. Of course, if I had omitted it, someone else would have pointed that out.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:43, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

That's fine where the source is a journal. Can you make it work with |chapter/contribution= where the source is not a journal? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:30, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

And as I said in another post here, having the exact value |title=none should work in some other situations. It's very irksome (both for make-work reasons and for accuracy reasons) to have to input fake "titles" for citing something's homepage, as in this example:
"Ministry of Foreign Affairs Homepage". MoFA.gov.pk. Government of Pakistan. 2013. Retrieved 4 August 2015.
which I had to do yesterday at both Pakistan and Foreign relations of Pakistan (and "Government of Pakistan" is kind of a lame |publisher= value). Properly, this would just be something like:

{{cite web |title=none<!--homepage--> |work=MoFA.gov.pk |url= http://www.mofa.gov.pk/index.php |publisher=Pakistan Ministry of Foreign Affairs |date=2013 |accessdate=4 August 2015}}

but the template won't permit this. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 00:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I would have used |title=Ministry of Foreign Affairs [homepage], using the brackets to show that "homepage" didn't actually appear in the source. Printed style guides call for just using a description with no italics nor quote marks if a source has no title, but this family of templates can't do that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jc3s5h (talk • contribs) 00:20, 6 August 2015‎

Reasoned, but my point is that it shouldn't be necessary. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 17:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

{{cite report}} renders title without title styling:

Ministry of Foreign Affairs [homepage]. Government of Pakistan. 2013. Retrieved 4 August 2015.

Setting |type=none disables the default type annotation.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

But it's not a report, so it's wrong. I consider lying to the template to make it look right intolerable. If I found an article that did that I would rip all the templates out and switch to a citation style based on a paper style guide. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

You wrote: a description with no italics nor quote marks if a source has no title, but this family of templates can't do that. I merely point out that, in fact, a member of this family of templates does render a description in lieu of title without styling.

Without doubt, we can concoct a mechanism that disables the default title styling; I once suggested a separate title parameter for that purpose which conversation didn't go very far. Since we have parameters like |name-list-format= and |mode= we could have something similar for titles where the parameter takes a named constant and applies a defined rule to the content of |title= or not even bother with a new parameter and just change |mode= processing to accept a comma delimited list of descriptors so {{cite web}} might have |mode=cs2, desc to render a web cite in cs2 style with an unstyled title.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:27, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Works for me. While I wouldn't go as far as Jc3s5h vows (probably tongue-in-cheek), I too object to having to use the wrong template, both on the basis that it's using the wrong template, and the more pragmatic one that the next editor to come along is liable to "fix" it to use the correct one that does the undesirable formatting. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 17:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

As before: can you make "none" work with |chapter/contribution= where the source is not a journal? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

If you are asking for |chapter/contribution=none, simply omit |chapter/contribution= or leave it blank.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:29, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

No, I am asking for suppression of the "missing or empty title" error message, or explicit suppression of a title. Omitting use of a citation template is even simpler, but that is not a constructive answer.

To be more explicit, can you make |title=none (or some variation) suppress the title without having to specify {{cite journal}} or |journal=? E.g., for "{{citation |year= 1990 |title=none |author= Folland et al. |chapter= Chap. 7: Observed Climate Variation and Change }}", which produces: Folland; et al. (1990), "Chap. 7: Observed Climate Variation and Change", none {{citation}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help). ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:27, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

These discussion again? My position as stated there has not changed.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:59, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

What, that attitude again? Trappist, you're being a jerk. There are cases where it is quite valid to cite a chapter (or contribution) in a larger work without directly including the title of the work. (For brevity I omit the winding, tendentious details we have previously traced out.) Yet you are obsessed with requiring a title for all uses. When this was discussed last January (see cite journal without Ctitle) you grudgingly ("I'd rather not if I can avoid it") accepted Gadget850's proposal (endorsed by Imzadi) that |title=none should suppress the error message. Yet you adamantly refuse to make any concession for other uses, You are fixated on this idea that every citation template must produce "stand-alone" (complete within itself?) COinS metadata, never mind that your rigid attitude (as enunciated above by David Eppstein) is going to drive people away from using templates and thereby reduce the metadata. The degree of your obsession is indicated in the time and effort you have spent objecting and resisting this (and in developing the misbegotten harvc template), which is likely more time than it would have taken to extend the "none" exception. (Or even better, to just eliminate the title test.) To insist that ALL citations must be "COinS complete" (which implies that only sources with complete COinS data can be cited using templates) is counter-productive. In the end your position is just "I don't like it." That is a very feeble argument. And your intransigence impairs the work of others. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:00, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

To be honest JJ, you haven't shown consensus for your change. Trappist has provided an alternative method, and your use case is unrelated to the thread above from my read. If you really think the template should change, start an RFC or a straw poll, lay out all the options (since there are now alternatives), and ask the community whether it makes sense to support what you think should be supported. --Izno (talk) 21:17, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Consensus? Off-hand I don't recall where the consensus was for Trappist to break existing valid usage. Nor was any explicit consensus needed for him to add the 'journal' exception. As to alternatives, the one he provided is {{harvc}}, which is an abomination that makes citation more complex and harder to understand (discussed elsewhere). The other alternatives are: 2) to characterize a non-journal source as a journal (which amounts to metadata corruption); 3) not use citation templates; 4) not write anything requiring citations. #2 seems the least offensive, but even so this "lying to the template" (as Jc3s5h calls it) is "right intolerable", while SMc has noted the pragmatic problem where such misuses are "fixed" by subsequent editors. None of these alternatives are good, but everyone else has to accept them because one editor "do[es]n't care for this 'style'"? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Requests for comments is -> that way. --Izno (talk) 04:46, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

That way? What is wrong with here? As stated at the top of this very page: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Citation Style 1 page". Not only is it a matter of a particular 'style' that is raised here, but here is the very question I would like answered: How do you suppress errors when titles are missing? Trappist has provided an answer for use with 'cite journal'; my particular question is how to suppress these "errors" for non-journal sources. As Trappist is the WP:WikiKing here, what would be the point of asking for comments from anyone else? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:35, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Then what you're looking for is {{RFC}}. Continuing to ask and ask and ask is not going to get you anywhere, so not asking for external comments is not an option. If consensus decides that it's a valuable change, then we'll go find a template editor/coder to make the desired change. If not, then you have an answer that isn't decided by a so-called WikiKing. It's really that simple. --Izno (talk) 21:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Izno, are you even paying attention? You seem to be saying (yes?) that whatever I ask has to go through the hoop of an RfC. Perhaps you would permit me to ask you directly: Where was the Rfc that decided that this "title test" was a valuable change? Or the RfC to add the journal-only "title=none" exception? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:28, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Of course I'm paying attention. It seems you aren't, so I'm done replying. --Izno (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Your replies seem to consist solely of enabling for Trappist's intransigence, so that's probably a net positive. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:33, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Yours seem to be enabling JJ's. Starting an RFC is not hard and gets results. Whining that process wasn't followed does not. Want something to change? Be bold. Can't change it yourself? Ask for help. If help does not want to be given by a certain person, or if it is not obvious what the consensus should be and so it is not obvious that your desired help is that consensus, find that consensus. How do we do that? An RFC. Or if you think the behavioral issues so insurmountable as to prevent you from such, take it to the dramaboard. As I said before, it's simple. Trappist seems unwilling to help you. Guess what that means: an RFC, or ANI. Or identify an expert-editor of templates/Lua, have said person take time to analyze the problem and provide the solution, and then convince Trappist not to edit war. You know which one gets a positive result? I certainly do. Since you decided to snipe at me instead of taking the literal 5 minutes for yourself to start the RFC, I'll take it that you don't. Or you don't care. One of the two. (And yes, I understand the irony of "taking the literal 5 minutes for yourself...". I'm not the one who wants the change.) --Izno (talk) 05:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Izno: I am sorry if you think I am sniping at you. Undoubtedly you understand that I am rather frustrated here; I think you will also understand why I might feel even more frustrated at your suggestion that I should jump through more hoops. But now you have clarified: you are suggesting with how I might deal with the intransigence. Right? In your conception I can seek to build community consensus that a certain state of affairs is desireable (whether it be striking the title-test, adding a non-journal exception, or something else), and request to have it implemented. When the request is refused go back to the community for support - and then what? Sanction Trappist? I think that is where a formal by-the-rules (i.e., "Rfc") approach ends up, and, frankly, I don't like it. (Way too much drama, all around, not because I begrudge 5 minutes, literally or figuratively.) I would prefer to deal with this informally, here. With the understanding that I really don't want to go nuclear, would you have you have any suggestions how else I might proceed? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 17:34, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Quick Re On Sniping: No, I was commenting on David's comment at 3:33. --Izno (talk) 18:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh. I was wondering if he was chastising me. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:32, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Izno: again, do you have any suggestions how to proceed, without going nuclear? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Returning to the original example, I would have written

*{{cite journal
 |last1=Pontecorvo |first1=B. |author-link=Bruno Pontecorvo
 |year=1957
 |title=Mesonium and anti-mesonium
 |journal=[[Soviet Physics JETP]]
 |volume=6 |pages=429–431
 |url=http://www.jetp.ac.ru/files/pontecorvo1957_en.pdf
}} English version of {{cite journal
 |last1=Pontecorvo |first1=B. |author-mask=2
 |year=1957
 |title=Mezoniy i antimezoniy
 |journal=[[Zhurnal Éksperimental’noĭ i Teoreticheskoĭ Fiziki]]
 |volume=33 |pages=549–551
 |url=http://www.jetp.ac.ru/files/pontecorvo1957_ru.pdf
}}

which yields

Pontecorvo, B. (1957). "Mesonium and anti-mesonium" (PDF). Soviet Physics JETP. 6: 429–431. English version of —— (1957). "Mezoniy i antimezoniy" (PDF). Zhurnal Éksperimental’noĭ i Teoreticheskoĭ Fiziki. 33: 549–551.

Kanguole 15:56, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

when both original and archive urls are dead

This conversation at WP:Help desk is perhaps vaguely related to this discussion about suppressing the original url. In that discussion is this cs1 template:

{{cite web| url=http://www.planning.org/thenewplanner/nonmember/default1.htm |title=The New Planner: Drowning Office Park Rescued by Students During High Tide | accessdate=2006-11-01 |archiveurl = http://web.archive.org/web/20060714232619/http://www.planning.org/thenewplanner/nonmember/default1.htm <!-- Bot retrieved archive --> |archivedate = 2006-07-14}}

"The New Planner: Drowning Office Park Rescued by Students During High Tide". Archived from the original on 2006-07-14. Retrieved 2006-11-01.

Neither the original url nor the archive url work. To me this seems a case of 'find-another-source-to-cite'. Until that other source can be located, is there something that cs1|2 can/should do to indicate to readers that both urls are dead? Is this even in the cs1|2 remit?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

To me, archived copies of web sources are similar to, but not the same as, courtesy links to online copies of books. If we assume the underlying source is (or was) reliable when it was consulted, then there is a bit of a presumption that it is still reliable going forward. The archived copy makes otherwise inaccessible sources accessible again, much like a Google Books-hosted copy of a rare book. If that same Google Books link stopped working, it could be removed without changing the fact that the underlying source, the rare book, was used to source the cited information.

In other words, if it were just me, and I discovered that an archived copy no longer worked, I'd remove or comment out |archive-url= and |archive-date= and add a {{dead link}} tag to the citation. This would notify editors that we would want a new archive of the original source, if possible. We'd still be free to locate replacement sources to cite, just as we'd be free to attempt to find other books that are more accessible than rare books housed in only a few select libraries. Because our sources need to be accessible to someone somehow someway, we allow citation of very rare sources, and we'd eventually want a dead online source to be resurrected or replaced. I hope my thought processes make some sense. Imzadi 1979 → 03:15, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Why is the archive URL not working? Sometimes it's a temporary issue with IA and it works again a few days later. In several cases, inspecting the edit history revealed a rogue edit had added or removed a character from the URL rendering it non-functional. -79.74.108.165 (talk) 23:31, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

IA says "Page cannot be crawled or displayed due to robots.txt." It could be that planning.org added their robots.txt page after the archiveurl was added to the citation. GoingBatty (talk) 18:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

url-wikilink conflict error category and error message change

To shorten and make it more consistent with other error categories, in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox I have changed the Category:Pages with citations having wikilinks embedded in URL titles to Category:CS1 errors: URL–wikilink conflict. Because of this change I have also changed the error message to reflect the category name: 'Wikilink embedded in URL title' to 'URL–wikilink conflict'.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:10, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I support the two criteria listed, but I think that both the old and the new names are confusing to readers. I will try to come up with a proposal for one that meets the criteria: short, consistent, clear. I hope we don't have to settle for two out of three. (And a pedantic note: as I read the "In compounds when the connection might..." section of MOS:DASH, that should be an en dash, not a hyphen. Let's not pick that fight with pedants like me.)

If these category name changes stick, we'll need to update the math on the CS1 errors category page and check for links to the old category names. – Jonesey95 (talk) 10:10, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I concur and have changed the sandbox to use ndashes. {{category redirect}} for hyphenated versions is appropriate.

Internal–external link conflict? Clash? Collision?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:37, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

"URL overrides wikilink"? "Duplicate links"? "Redundant links"? "External link and wikilink?" I like the last two better than the first two ("duplicate links" makes it sound like they are identical). – Jonesey95 (talk) 11:04, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

error handling for |trans-title= and |trans-chapter=

In Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration, there are two nearly identical entries in the error_conditions table for |trans-title= and |trans-chapter= missing their original language counterparts. I have tweaked the code in Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox and Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox to combine these two error handlers. Examples:

"Chapter". Title.
[Trans Chapter]. Title. {{cite book}}: |trans-chapter= requires |chapter= or |script-chapter= (help)
"Chapter". [Trans Title]. {{cite book}}: |trans-title= requires |title= or |script-title= (help)
[Trans Chapter]. [Trans Title]. {{cite book}}: |trans-chapter= requires |chapter= or |script-chapter= (help); |trans-title= requires |title= or |script-title= (help)
"Chapter" [Trans Chapter]. Title [Trans Title].

Similarly, in Help:CS1 errors the help text for these two errors is nearly identical. When we make the next update to the live module, the help text for trans-chapter should be merged into the help text for trans-title (trans-title has the common anchor for the error message help link).

The two error messages shared Category:Pages with citations using translated terms without the original. That category name changes to Category:CS1 errors: translated title.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:50, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Suppress original URL

Moved from Module talk:Citation/CS1/Feature requests § Suppress original URL

Discussion moved here for a somewhat broader audience.

When urls die for whatever reason, normal practice is to keep the url and if possible, add |archive-url= and |archive-date=. Doing so links |title= to the archive copy and links static text provided by the template to the original url.

It has been suggested that we adopt a mechanism to suppress the original url when it is not dead in the sense of 404 or gateway errors and the like, but dead in the sense that the url has been taken over by someone and is now a link farm or advertising or phishing or porn or other generally inappropriate content.

To accomplish this I have suggested modifying the code that handles |dead-url=. This parameter takes a limited set of defined keywords (yes, true, y, no) and adjusts the rendered output accordingly. We could add another keyword that would render the static text in the same way as |dead-url=yes except that this value would not link the static text with the original url.

The question is: What should this defined keyword be? These have been suggested: hide, nolink, origspam, originalspam, spam, advert, phishing, fraud, unfit, usurped.

Is any of these the best keyword? Is there another keyword that would be better?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:05, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Commenters are encouraged to read through the original thread also. --Izno (talk) 15:32, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I suggest topic-changed. This covers complete takeover by an undesireable publisher, but also covers the case of the original publisher no longer having a page that supports the material in the article. For example, software publisher X had a page about a quirk of version 99 of their software, which Wikipedia described with a citation to the relevant X webpage. Once version 100 of the software is released, X removes the relevant webpage and does not provide information about the quirk anywhere on their site. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

The purpose of |dead-url= is to indicate for pages which are still live that they can be accessed (when an archive url is also present) (for the case of the original publisher). So from this point of view, adding an archiveurl solves that "broader" issue. Even in the case where an archiveurl cannot be identified and subsequently provided, you can set deadurl to yes and still have that case covered. --Izno (talk) 16:06, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any benefit in having citations provide links to dead URLs. However, if other people do, then I suggest simply |dead-url=nolink to describe the function, with an update to the template documentation describing when it is appropriate (or not) to not provide the link to a dead URL. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 19:01, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

The benefit I see to providing links to dead URLs (not necessarily clickable) is that the editor who marked the URL as dead might not have the knowledge to find a substitute at a related web page, but a later editor might have that knowledge; the dead URL serves as a clue for finding a substitute. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:18, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jc3s5h: I agree that a later editor may be able to use the dead URL to find a substitute web page, and the archiveurl does not necessarily contain the original URL. I'm all for keeping the dead URL in the citation template for this purpose. However, I suggest that the citation only provide one link for the reader when the original URL is dead. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 02:38, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

What about adding a few more keywords, say:

usurped for domains now operated by a different entity (covers advertising, linkfarm, fraud, spam, phishing, or site/content unrelated to original)
purged for domains operated by original entity but for which the original website content has been deleted
abandoned for domains that are no longer registered

The latter may not as desirable as the first two, as domain registrations can fluctuate. Mindmatrix 21:53, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Multiple keywords are possible. For the purposes of this conversation, I don't think abandoned domains need to be hidden because such domains are the definition of dead. I see no reason to hide links like that.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Since it has gotten quiet here I have implemented |dead-url=usurped to suppress the link to the original url:

Cite news comparison
Wikitext	`{{cite news\|accessdate=29 March 2009\|archivedate=24 October 2006\|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20061024013933/http://www1.videobusiness.com/article/CA616459.html\|date=June 9, 2003\|dead-url=usurped\|first=Daniel\|last=Frankel\|publisher=Video Business\|title=''Artisan pulls the repackaged Hip Hop Witch''\|url=http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA616459.html}}`
Live	Frankel, Daniel (June 9, 2003). "Artisan pulls the repackaged Hip Hop Witch". Video Business. Archived from the original on 24 October 2006. Retrieved 29 March 2009. `{{cite news}}`: Unknown parameter `\|dead-url=` ignored (`\|url-status=` suggested) (help)
Sandbox	Frankel, Daniel (June 9, 2003). "Artisan pulls the repackaged Hip Hop Witch". Video Business. Archived from the original on 24 October 2006. Retrieved 29 March 2009. `{{cite news}}`: Unknown parameter `\|dead-url=` ignored (`\|url-status=` suggested) (help)

And here are tests to show that |dead-url=no and |dead-url=yes still works as they should:

{{cite web/new |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//example.org |archive-date=2015-08-14 |dead-url=no}}

"Title". Archived from the original on 2015-08-14. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

{{cite web/new |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//example.org |archive-date=2015-08-14 |dead-url=yes}}

"Title". Archived from the original on 2015-08-14. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:39, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The documentation of the parameter value should make the intent of |dead-url=usurped clear (in accordance with the discussion above). Other than that, looks good. --Izno (talk) 16:54, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Looks good. Mindmatrix 15:09, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

The more I think about the keyword usurped, the less I like it. The term certainly fits for those cases where a domain name has been usurped but does it fit for all other cases where it is prudent to suppress the original url? I'm not sure, so rather than use a keyword that may have limited specificity, I think we should switch to a more general keyword, perhaps unfit, which would covers a broader variety of reasons for suppression of the original url.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:26, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

At the risk of boring all of you, I will re-express my view that the parameter value should express the function, not the reason (as I said in the previous discussion linked above, and as GoingBatty said above. I like "hide" or "nolink".

TL:DR; version: The value of |display-editors=, for example, is either a number (to show a given number of editors) or "etal" (to show "et al." without listing all of the editors in the citation template. We don't dictate why an editor should use a specific value, we just show how to get the display you want, assuming that editors will make a good choice (a bad assumption, I know, but you have to start by treating people like competent adults). There are many reasons why someone might want to suppress a link to the original URL: it is a porn site, the site has been sold, the page has been moved or archived, the editor wants a consistent citation style, or other reasons I can't think of. We can list some of them in the documentation, but assuming only one reason for hiding the URL paints us into a corner. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:42, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

I was hoping you wouldn't re-iterate your opinion so I wouldn't have to reiterate mine. To wit: The problem I have with function over purpose is that function enables behavior that may not be desirable. For example, I can't think of any reason other than a link being a "bad" link to be correct to hide. And my feeling is that the suitable keyword should reflect the reason. This allows us to trivially say "yes, you have used this as intended". I want in fact to preempt other reasons for usage without associated keywords, because I do not want "oh, the site is dead" simply to cause the link to be suppressed (as I am sure there is at least one person who would be wont to do so). See above illustrative discussion on that point. --Izno (talk) 21:59, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

In the cases of |dead-url=hide or |dead-url=nolink or similar, we create a mechanism that doesn't explain to editors of a later age why the action was taken. With |display-editors=etal, |mode=cs2 it's pretty easy to determine why the parameter was set the way it was set and that it is, or is not, set properly. Setting |dead-url=usurped or |dead-url=unfit gives follow-on editors some indication why the original url is suppressed. Like Editor Izno, I can think of no real reason why an original url should be suppressed unless it leads to inappropriate content. As I indicated before, we can have a variety of keywords to use as reasons should experience dictate a need.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:08, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Supported keywords are now unfit and usurped (also shows that auto |format=PDF works correctly when original url is suppressed):

{{cite webnew |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//example.org |archive-date=2015-08-14 |dead-url=unfit}}

"Title" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF) on 2015-08-14. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

{{cite webnew |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//example.org |archive-date=2015-08-14 |dead-url=usurped}}

"Title" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF) on 2015-08-14. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:45, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Yet another example of two levels of title within a journal publication

The following reference is a paper, part of a conference proceedings that was published as an issue of a journal (whose name indicates that it regularly publishes proceedings in this way, but with a combined volume and issue numbering system that looks much more like a journal than like a book series). The following formatting produces a citation that looks correct but with what I believe to be incorrect metadata. Is there a way to get the metadata right, too, or is this the best I can do?

{{cite journal | last = Charatonik | first = Janusz J. | title = Selected problems in continuum theory | url = http://topology.auburn.edu/tp/reprints/v27/tp27107.pdf | issue = 1 | journal = Topology Proceedings | mr = 2048922 | pages = 51–78 | department = Proceedings of the Spring Topology and Dynamical Systems Conference | volume = 27 | year = 2003}}

produces

Charatonik, Janusz J. (2003). "Selected problems in continuum theory" (PDF). Proceedings of the Spring Topology and Dynamical Systems Conference. Topology Proceedings. 27 (1): 51–78. MR 2048922.

—David Eppstein (talk) 01:41, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Because there is no COinS record assigned to |department=, 'Proceedings of the Spring Topology and Dynamical Systems Conference' is not included in the metadata. Rewriting this cite to use {{cite conference}} isn't much better:

{{cite conference
 | last = Charatonik | first = Janusz J.
 | title = Selected problems in continuum theory
 | url = http://topology.auburn.edu/tp/reprints/v27/tp27107.pdf
 | issue = 1
 | journal = Topology Proceedings
 | mr = 2048922
 | pages = 51–78
 | booktitle= Proceedings of the Spring Topology and Dynamical Systems Conference
 | volume = 27
 | year = 2003}}

In this case, 'Topology Proceedings' is left out which isn't any better and is probably worse, because the journal title is common to the two volumes published each year.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:38, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Use of |contribution/chapter= seems more suitable, but – oops! – red messages:

Charatonik, Janusz J. (2003). "Proceedings of the Spring Topology and Dynamical Systems Conference" (PDF). Topology Proceedings. 27 (1): 51–78. MR 2048922. {{cite journal}}: |chapter= ignored (help)

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:55, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that would be my preference, if it worked. But it doesn't, {{cite journal}}/|department= does, and it appears from Trappist's message above that it doesn't even produce bogus metadata. So that's what I'll be using for now. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

On one hand, I would be happy for any reasonable work around. On the other hand, COinS is not the only kind of metadata here. The names of parameters also carry information regarding the nature of the data encoded. E.g., |journal= implies the source is journal (specfically, an academic journal), which is different from a newspaper or a book. Likewise, |department= is defined at Cite journal#Periodical as "Title of a regular department, column, or section within the periodical or journal", and has specific effects on the resulting formatting. To use these parameters for other purposes is a form of metadata corruption. And (as has been previously commented) eventually leads to some unsuspecting editor attempting to "correct" what looks like an error. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:18, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

vancouver error tweak

I have noticed that a space between the two initials of a name in |vauthors= is not detected as an error. I think that I have fixed that:

Cite book comparison
Wikitext	`{{cite book\|title=Title\|vauthors=Last AA, Last B B}}`
Live	Last AA, Last B B. Title. `{{cite book}}`: Vancouver style error: initials in name 2 (help)
Sandbox	Last AA, Last B B. Title. `{{cite book}}`: Vancouver style error: initials in name 2 (help)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)