Module talk:Infobox military conflict

Re-add "Cause"

Many articles use the "cause" parameter, but it's not showing up. Please add it to the template. [Soffredo] 11:45, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

That parameter was removed from the template almost six years ago, after a discussion concluded that it was likely to be misused and would need to refer back to the article in virtually all cases. I don't think it really makes sense to re-add the parameter after so long simply because some older articles still retain it in the template call. Kirill ^[talk] 12:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Casualties and losses

Please, change the heading Casualties and losses into Casualties. The last part is superfluous and covered by the first part. --Wickey-nl (talk) 11:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The two are not actually redundant in this instance, since this field is also used to report equipment (e.g. ship, tank, plane, etc.) losses. Kirill ^[talk] 15:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Still more confusing. Good reason to separate material and human casualties. Choose two unambiguous headings. "Material losses" and "Human casualties"? --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:36, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to complicate the template further by separating the two categories. For battles where the materiel losses are relevant, they tend to be discussed in combination with the personnel losses rather than separately, similarly to how the relative strengths of the armies are discussed in terms of both personnel and materiel (see e.g. Battle of Kursk, Battle of Jutland, etc.); splitting them out across the board will add a large number of extra fields to the infobox without providing any more clarity than already exists. Kirill ^[talk] 03:46, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm with Kirill on this - allows for flexibility eg you can put "five tanks" on one side and "20 troops" on the other and they will line up rather than being offset. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:19, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

What a big nonsense! You are suggesting that there is a direct relation between material and human casualties, which is sometimes true and sometimes untrue. You ignore civilian casualties, who usually have nothing to do with losses of tanks and warships. You suggest that you can compare material casualties with human casualties, which is even immoral. --Wickey-nl (talk) 09:09, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Saying nothing of the sort with regards to moral equivalence or lack of it. I'm suggesting that

Casualties and losses
__________	150 troops 10 vehicles 1 warship	5 bombers

is a more flexible format than

Casualties and losses
Casualties	150 troops
Materiel	10 vehicles 1 warship	5 bombers

An infobox is a quick summary of the battle, not a detailed table of data. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:16, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I suppose, the second one is your translation of my proposal. My idea was two fields above each other. If it is empty it simply disappears. The side template should be possibly small, thus I still prefer separate sections. Yet, there is no rationale to combine material and human losses. Rather, separate fields will encourage to give not only human casualties. The latter is the advantage of both your and my proposal, although your proposal may be gives a more complex template. --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:15, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that is an illustration - and nothing more - of my point showing how if you have non-identical categories of losses then you have an unbalanced presentation. GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:24, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

less pejorative heading

Wouldn't a heading of "Combatants" or "Parties" be less pejorative than "Belligerents"? [1]

(copied from Talk:Battle_of_Thermopylae) --Enric Naval (talk) 17:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

"Belligerent" is being used here in its formal meaning; I'm not sure how that's pejorative, given that it's an established term under international law. Kirill ^[talk] 23:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Example infobox - Result

G'day all, I think the fact that the example infobox from Battle of Lutzen is used in the template page is problematic, as it uses the "Pyrrhic victory" which seems to go against the documentation:

• result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much. We don't want to encourage editors to try to simplistically explain outcomes in one or two words. Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:50, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

The example is just a copy of the infobox in the article; I'm not sure that it makes sense to have a discussion about it here rather than there. My suggestion would be to select another example if we think that this one isn't representative of the typical usage of the template. Kirill ^[talk] 03:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't so concerned about the article itself, just the example. I'll scout around for one that is more representative. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:58, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Alt text against | map_caption =

G'day @Kirill Lokshin: is there a way to include alt text for the | map_caption = field in this infobox? I'm getting a "needs alt text" message for the map in the infobox at June 1941 uprising in eastern Herzegovina, and I tried adding an |alt = field, but it didn't work. Ideas? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: I've added a map_alt= parameter to handle the alt text. Please let me know if you run into any problems using it. Kirill ^[talk] 03:46, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Kirill, you are a champion! Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:56, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Next & prev

plz add , prev-war next-war،
Because، option ((part of)) is in template.
--Obaid Raza (talk) 16:38, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Should

I think there should be a line saying "purpose". Can an admin add such a line please? Vindkanadi (talk) 13:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean the purpose of the war/conflict? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Vindkanadi (talk) 13:06, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

My view is that is not something we should be trying to encapsulate in a field in an infobox. IMO, editors often try to do too much in infoboxes, when the matter at issue is far too complicated for a one-liner. My that is just my opinion. I suggest you raise it on the WPMILHIST talk page if you want a wider view, not many editors watchlist this page. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 21:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Combatant4

Conflicts such as the Syrian Civil War (basically a four sided war between Syrian army, FSA coalition, Islamic State and the Kurds) need of a 4th side of combatants available. --118.69.69.239 (talk) 11:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

adding a fourth column would make the infobox excessively wide, so we would need a different format if this is going to be added. better, would be to align the information in rows in such a case. Frietjes (talk)

Personally, I would avoid it, and use a link to a "Belligerents" or "Warring factions" section of the article where the information could be provided in prose, rather than trying to shoehorn it all into an infobox. IMO, many editors try to do too much with infoboxes. Just the fact that it is a civil war indicates that it is complex, and not suited to a couple of lines in an infobox. As I usually point out to editors posting here, not many editors watch this page, I suggest starting a thread on the MILHIST talk page. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Type

I think there should be a line saying "type", because some conflicts are for humanitarian and altruistic reasons. Others are for selfish reasons such as accumalating resources. not only is it immoral to group these together, it is also misleading. it is the equivalence of having a similar wiki-category for a sex position and rape. I find that offensive and deeply unsettling. Vindkanadi (talk) 11:01, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The lede sentence(s) is the place to describe the conflict. The infobox is a summary of a few points. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Your response is exactly the problem I was describing 30 minutes ago. You group all these very different confrontations together under a single simplified unmbrella - "conflict". Vindkanadi (talk) 11:33, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes; this is the infobox for military conflicts, therefore it is entirely appropriate to use the term. The 'cause' parameter was removed years ago (see the top of this page) for much the same reasons as the problems your suggestion would result in. How would we define the cause (or type) of the Second World War in a single word or line?

It is not misleading or immoral to use the umbrella term of conflict, or group conflicts together whatever their cause or type. A conflict is a conflict. Some may be started for more moral than others, but the end result is the same (the conflict the infobox is summarising). A comparison to sex positions and rape is so way off beam I can't even begin to consider it. Ranger Steve ^Talk 14:21, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Completely agree with Ranger Steve. And see my responses to other question threads above. Editors regularly try to get infoboxes to "do" things they just aren't designed to "do". Please work on the lead and the article prose of the article in question instead of worrying about whether an infobox encapsulates the complexity every conflict entails. It isn't going to. Ever. Regardless of how many fields it has. And it will just cause needless edit wars. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Result starting with bulleted list

Great October Socialist Revolution
Location Petrograd, Russia Result Creation of Soviet Russia End of Russian Provisional Government, Russian Republic and dual power Start of the Russian Civil War All-Russian Congress of Soviets becomes supreme governing body

Great October Socialist Revolution
Location Petrograd, Russia Result Creation of Soviet Russia End of Russian Provisional Government, Russian Republic and dual power Start of the Russian Civil War All-Russian Congress of Soviets becomes supreme governing body

The result parameter sometimes starts with a bulleted list but then the first asterisk is displayed as an asterisk because whitespace is stripped from the parameter and the asterisk doesn't end up on a new line. The first example shows it. The caller can fix it by adding something non-displayed before the asterisk and newline like the second example but many editors don't know this so a fix in the module would be better. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:05, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

PrimeHunter, yes, this would be easy for Jackmcbarn to fix, you just need a ':newline()' before the wikitext (see Module:infobox). Frietjes (talk) 21:05, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter and Frietjes:  Done Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Another image

Would it be possible to add another image parameter into the infobox? Uspzor (talk) 12:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Putsch

This infobox is used in some Putsch-articles, but IMO the infobox could be for these cases improved with a simple change.

A putsch is a (para-)military action against a weak government and often its effect is more based on the political correlation of forces than in military forces or deployments. Furthermore, the modus operandi is the principal factor to defeat the institutional (weak) order.

Hence, in order to improve the informative value of the infobox we should add an "action" row to the table and divide the "strength" row in a "Political Support:" and a "Military Support:" sub-rows. The best solution, as I believe, requires only few changes in the lua script, see Module:Infobox military conflict/sandbox.

Please take a look to the three infoboxes below. The three box contain exactly the same information.

• The left one uses the existent features of the current infobox. The "action" information is within the "notes" row, and the pol. and mil. support information are given with simple <br/>s and '''s within the "strength"-row.
• The box in the middle uses a new row "Action" in the head of the infobox, between "Location" and "Result". The pol. and mil. support information are given with simple <br/>s and '''s within the "strength"-row.
• The box at the right uses the new row in the head of the infobox _and_ two new rows instead of the traditional "strength" row.

Three Proposals for a "Putsch"-infobox based on Infobox_military_conflict
March on Rome Benito Mussolini and Fascist Blackshirts during the March Date 22–29 October 1922 Location Rome, Italy Result Fascist coup d'état, Benito Mussolini formed a new government Government-Insurgents    Kingdom of Italy National Fascist Party Blackshirts Commanders and leaders Luigi Facta Antonio Salandra Benito Mussolini Emilio De Bono Italo Balbo Cesare Maria De Vecchi Michele Bianchi Strength Military support: Italian Police and Armed Forces Political support: left parties Military support: 30,000 militiamen Political support: military, the business class, and the right-wing Action: Blackshirts occupied the Po plain and took all strategic points of the country. Bands of fascist troops gathered outside Rome marched over Rome.It was rather the precipitating force behind a transfer of power within the framework of the constitution after the surrender of public authorities in the face of fascist intimidation.	March on Rome Benito Mussolini and Fascist Blackshirts during the March Date 22–29 October 1922 Location Rome, Italy Action Blackshirts occupied the Po plain and took all strategic points of the country. Bands of fascist troops gathered outside Rome marched over Rome.It was rather the precipitating force behind a transfer of power within the framework of the constitution after the surrender of public authorities in the face of fascist intimidation. Result Fascist coup d'état, Benito Mussolini formed a new government Government-Insurgents    Kingdom of Italy National Fascist Party Blackshirts Commanders and leaders Luigi Facta Antonio Salandra Benito Mussolini Emilio De Bono Italo Balbo Cesare Maria De Vecchi Michele Bianchi Strength Military support: Italian Police and Armed Forces Political support: left parties Military support: 30,000 militiamen Political support: military, the business class, and the right-wing	March on Rome Benito Mussolini and Fascist Blackshirts during the March Date 22–29 October 1922 Location Rome, Italy Action Blackshirts occupied the Po plain and took all strategic points of the country. Bands of fascist troops gathered outside Rome marched over Rome.It was rather the precipitating force behind a transfer of power within the framework of the constitution after the surrender of public authorities in the face of fascist intimidation. Result Fascist coup d'état, Benito Mussolini formed a new government Government-Insurgents    Kingdom of Italy National Fascist Party Blackshirts Commanders and leaders Luigi Facta Antonio Salandra Benito Mussolini Emilio De Bono Italo Balbo Cesare Maria De Vecchi Michele Bianchi Political support Left parties Military, the business class, and the right-wing Military support Italian Police and Armed Forces 30,000 Militiamen

I would prefer the infobox at the right side:

• It is clearer, the information is easier to find. I think, few readers would look for "Action:" at the bottom of the box, because of its importance.
• the new code [2] doesn't interfere with the old templates.
• the rename "Government-Insurgents" is a option of the current infobox

You can see other examples in User:Keysanger/sandbox3. I would like to know your opinion about other possibilities, the proposed change. --Keysanger (talk) 20:29, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Keysanger, thanks for starting this. Of the three, I prefer the one on the right; I'm not a big fan of the "strength" sub-header. My only concern is that the "action" parameter might become too wordy; but really, that's not something we can fix with the template. Also, could the header show in some way that this was a non-standard change in government, rather than a military conflict? Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Every information given in a infobox has its problems and must be considered as an approach to the issue. For example the date. It is not seldom that military deployments begin one or two days earlier. Also the strength of a military unit is only a number with no information about its effectiveness, etc. Let alone about political support, often they say we support you but go away just now!.

Yes, the "action" parameter became too long. But taht will be a problem or the editors as you said.

Yes, we can set the parameter "combatants_header" to "Government-Insurgents   ", with three non-blank spaces to center the string. The main name of the infobox is given by the parameter "conflict"

I had also a "Foreign Intervention" row, but, at least in my 6 examples in my sandbox, there were too few cases were we could use the row. I deleted it from the lua snippet. --Keysanger (talk) 11:50, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

At first sight the proposal looks good. As far as I understand the modification of the template will allow a better description of coup d'etats with the templates. Regarding the military support I'm not really sure how to interpret that. During coups small groups might engage physically while they claim a wide military support (which if successful might be validate but if it ends in failure might be denyed). Take for example the tanquetazo in Chile 1973. If this coup would have been successful the coup-makers would perhaps have claimed that that they enjoyed widespread support from the Chilean army, but since it ended in failure it is usually considered that it lacked real support. In the cases of coups and putsches I would suggest to define support strictly to avoid the "joining the victory parade effect". Dentren | ^Talk 23:39, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

It looks good for me. Although, if I may suggest, do keep the "Strength" subheader. As Dentren said, there might be physical clashes, say, the Bombing of Plaza de Mayo (check the Spanish article). It was a failed coup attempt, but the loyal forces did battle the bunch of traitors... ehr rebel forces. They lost 9 grenadiers and 5 police officers, whilst the rebels suffered 30 casualties and 3 warplanes were shot down — not to mention the hundreds of civilians.

There were sporadic skirmishes during the next three months, and certain cities of military importance saw heavy fire after the real coup took place on 16 September.

And there's no need to mention what happened in Chile... LlegóelBigotee (talk) 17:07, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you Keisanger! I think that the one on the right is the best infobox! -- Nick.mon (talk) 19:13, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I request that following changes, approved by consensus and very simple, are merged in the source code of the Module. --Keysanger (talk) 19:19, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Keysanger, done, could you update the documentation? Frietjes (talk) 15:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I updated the doc. Thanks to Vanamonde93, Dentren, LlegóelBigotee, Nick.mon and Frietjes. It was a pleasure to work with you. --Keysanger (talk) 22:18, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Keysanger. Your work is much appreciated. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:45, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Mark option

Would it be possible to add this to the module/template:

| mark = 
| mark_width = 

An example of how that is in use on an infobox map is Travis Park. — Maile (talk) 13:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please make your requested changes to the module's sandbox first; see WP:TESTCASES. Probably possible if you put it in the sandbox and make sure it works on the testcases. :) — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 16:07, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, since I have no idea how to do any of that, I think this pretty much tosses the request out. — Maile (talk) 18:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Maile66 use |map_mark= and |map_marksize= Frietjes (talk) 17:52, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Frietjes Tried it. Does not do a thing on the Battle of Refugio. Looks exactly the same size 8 red dot as before I changed it to size 12 triangle. — Maile (talk) 18:32, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Maile66, try reading what I typed :) Frietjes (talk) 18:35, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, for goodness sake! I mis-typed it. Mucho gracias. — Maile (talk) 18:45, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Casus belli field

Adding a field for the cause of war would be a useful addition. Reigen (talk) 11:31, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree. People try to over-simplify in infoboxes far too much already. Causes of war are usually complex and multi-layered, not something easily summed up in a phrase. Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 11:34, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Casus belli usually refers to "official" cause of war, rather than the actual cause of war, which means that it could actually be simplified. A belligerent may have ulterior motives, but the casus belli is usually reasonable or even noble. Reigen (talk) 12:30, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

If there is a discussion in the past about not having the "cause" or "casus belli" field in the infobox, then it would be very helpful if such omission is noted in the doc page of the template along with a link pointing to it. Unfortunately I don't know where the discussion is archived, so can someone familiar with the development history of this template do a favor? --Quest for Truth (talk) 12:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

In response to the above, the "official" justification for a war is usually one-sided propaganda. I don't accept the need for such a field in the infobox template, it will just add to edit warring and POV-wars. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 20:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Infobox policy and fictional conflicts

Could we make it explicit policy somewhere to not use this infobox for fictional conflicts? I hope that most people who are working on military history issues in Wikipedia are in consensus with me in that it should be applied to historical, real conflicts and conflicts whose accounts are contested but arguably have some sort of basis in reality (e.g. the Trojan War).

I'm working on a research project whose ambitious goal is to try to mine interesting patterns in the human history of conflict as represented in this wonderful repository of knowledge, Wikipedia. We've already had to weed out conflicts from the Lord of the Rings and Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica because people are (in my opinion erroneously and incorrectly) using the military conflict infoboxes to describe fictional conflicts. We've already moved several steps into the analysis and we just happened to notice when sifting through this rather large dataset with a fine-tooth comb that the Ottoman Empire was being flagged as active in 1941. Obviously this was completely incorrect and after some backtracking into the bowels of the parsing algorithm we noticed that an alternate history novel's page was using the military conflict infobox. This was slightly trickier to catch because the info in the infobox was referring to real world entities.

I know there are a lot of interpretations of Wikipedia philosophy and a friendly philosophy of openness but on behalf of researchers who are doing wide-ranging research on Wikipedia as a body of knowledge (because over the decade it has proven to be a wonderful and interesting object of study) I implore Wikipedia policy makers to be more consistent about template usage and the boundary between reality of fiction. That being said, could we consider incorporating strengthening the recommended circumstances under which this infobox can be used? Vqmalic (talk) 03:46, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. I see no reason that we should prohibit infoboxes for fictional things, and I see no reason that we should create another template that's completely identical to this one, but just for fictional things. If this is a problem, we could instead create a "fictional" flag and a second wrapper for this module. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:08, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

problem with insertion of picture

Hello, in the article Battle of Samarra (2004), the insertion of the picture "BatonRouge2.jpg" look to fail because of the infobox: the picture can be printed only after the end of the infobox. Any idea about how to fix that? Wikini (talk) 14:45, 22 September 2015 (UTC)