Talk:Search engine optimization/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

External links, proposed again

Why not links to biggest help forums on SEO. There is WMW, Digital Point, Site Point and many other websites. Comment was made by Dhaliwal on 18 Jan 2006.

Every SEO SEM company, forum, guru, professional would love to have a backlink from this article. The best way to avoid the possilbe flood of spam is to uphold the strict no link policy for this article. Wiipedia is not a directory, community forum or a collection of free for all pages--Synlighet 22:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, as i was quoted here, so i think i should say a word about my comments. I agree to the statement that every SEO guru would like to have a link from such an great resource, but i dont think that big webmaster forum owners would be running after just one link. Just to say about the big ones, I suggested, Webmaster World, Digital Point and Site Point Forums only.

Also, i added them as those are the places a new webmaster or a website owner looking for SEO should visit. Otherwise, all those who have slight idea of SEO, already know about these forums

Thanks, Dhaliwal

A note from Danny Sullivan

Danny Sullivan, a respected SEO guru, dropped by our article last week and, because he merely added links to the article, I tagged his IP address for {{spam}}. He sent me this note on my Talk page:

You sent me this:

"Please do not add commercial links — or links to your own private websites — to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. See the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. Perfecto Canada 03:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)"

Can you explain why there are commercial links already at the bottom of the SEO entry in Wikipedia then? Last to my understanding, Google, Yahoo and MSN are all commercial companies.

You have an entry on SEO. You are pointing to the search engines which, if you know anything about the industry, are not the only source of SEO knowledge nor necessarily the most accurate. Wikipedia is supposed to be a neutral ground to educate people. You absolutely should be linking to sources of knowledge beyond the major search engines.

Search Engine Watch and WebmasterWorld are the two largest sources out there, for the reasons I explained in my addition. Yes, one of them is my own site, as I also explained. That doesn't diminish the fact you should be including it.

Of course, the page already isn't accurate. SEO does NOT include paid advertisements. That's search engine advertising. SEO is akin to PR, optimizing for non-paid improvement. Search engine marketing is the umbrella term that combines the two.

Google was not the first to use a new concept of relying on links. It was simply the most popular one to do that. I have no idea where the reference for the official "truce" being discussed comes from. Sure would be nice to have a reference there.

I organized one of the first confernces that connected the two groups in 1999, so I suppose that could have been part of it. I'd send you a link, but you know, that might take you to a commercial web site which apparently is a bad thing. But since I was actually there and involved at that time, I don't recall any particular "truce" like negotiations happening. Rather, the two sides simply had better communication emerge.

As for Googleeating as a black hat tactic, c'mon, someone's having Wikipedia on. No one talks about this as a tactic. Geez.

Further down, you refer people to the W3C guidelines for SEO advice. Um, they advise things the search engines don't even support. Bad place to be pointing people at.

I'd go through and add and contribute, but the entire notion that tomorrow it just gets edited and wiped out by someone who might know nothing about SEO doesn't thrill me. Instead, I'll stick to doing what I've done for the past decade, educating people about SEO on my own web site. It's a pity Wikipedia doesn't find that resource good enough to refer people to. Google, Yahoo and MSN all do.

Danny Sullivan, Editor, Search Engine Watch

I hardly know what to reply to him. I've copied the message here so perhaps someone here can address his concern. I'll email him to come here to read the response. Thank you. --Perfecto 04:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I actually read this whole discussion because I could not believe that there were only two references to real SEO knowledge from the experts. I wanted to get Jill Whalen of www.highrankings.com and Dan Theis of www.seoresearchlabs.com added as a reference. But from experience I know that if something is missing from the wiki it is due to controversy. Danny Sullivan, Jill Whalen and Dan Theis are by far the most honest of people that have always and will continue to admonish link myths and black hat SEO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seharness (talk • contribs) 06:00, 30 January 2006 UTC (UTC)

Fair enough - search engines' TOS is just one side of the story, it would make sence to have links pointing at SEO community's most important and educating resources, and Danny Sullivan's site certainly fits in there. I'd also add a link to Rand Fishkin's Beginner's Guide to SEO - a worthy read for anybody starting in SEO. -- IrishWonder | _{Talk to me} 16:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Danny wrote, "You absolutely should be linking to sources of knowledge beyond the major search engines." I disagree, because, since Wikipedia may someday see print or DVD publication, we want more content, not more links.

Let me take your SEW articles as an example, since I'm a long-time reader: Do you have an article there with an external links section with more than three links? Do you have an article there with more than three external links going to the same domain? Why not?

I envision Wikipedia as the "Search Engine Watch" without copyrights and that anyone can edit. All Wikipedia asks from all of us is a bit of generosity. Danny, I invite you to write us an entire article on, say, Google Foundation -- and (I dare you!) put no link to your articles in SEW -- and see what happens.

Though we sincerely appreciate them, we want contributions that are more than a paragraph or phrase or a web link to resource/news/fan/advice/free-sample sites. We're growing a free-content encyclopedia, take note, not a web resource. --Perfecto 19:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

If Wikipedia is to only consider search engines as the only reliable source of information on SEO that would be equivalent to me only accepting Wikipedia Watch as the single reliable source of information about Wikipedia.

You do realize that ALL major search engines sell links and mix other's contents to make profits. They do so and then they set up arbitrary guidelines that are intentionally vague, which try to minimize the profit others can make from their systems while they drive up their share prices. You point to those guidelines as if they did not have any hidden agenda to them. Do you think it is an accident that the Google information for webmasters page has contact the FTC and fraud near their tips for hiring an SEO?

And if you think that search engines are not hypocritical, please note that those same search engines go so far as to monetize the #1 Warez crack site threadwatch.org/node/5107 and still place their ads on sites that they ban for spamming threadwatch.org/node/4995

And for a real hoot, Yahoo! has bought a ton of links and even Google was caught cloaking threadwatch.org/node/1774

When they do not follow their own guidelines why should everyone else? Why should we see those guidelines as the only authoritative text on the topic?

And for those who think Danny Sullivan does not link out, they could stand to get a clue. He has all kinds of sections on various topics such as meta search, legal history, shopping search, search engine comparisons, etc etc etc

Maybe some of us would put a bit more effort into turning Wikipedia into something similar to SearchEngineWatch, but of course we need to pay for the cost of living, and if some power tripping fool who knows nearly nothing about the topic is just going to edit it out is there any point? Your own bias is heavily reflected in the contents of the Wikipeia. Perspective helps.

- Aaron Wall, SeoBook.com

Danny Sullivan may be a popular guy in the SEO community, but he is by no means the final arbiter of what is correct, important, or popular in the community. Articles related to search engine optimization on Wikipedia have included a lot of erroneous information. Before the issue of whose sites get linked to is resolved, the significant content errors should be cleaned up.

Wikipedia is generally a poor resource precisely because it is so easy for people to manipulate the content, and I have found that content manipulation is rampant. Combine that with the lack of expertise that some well-meaning contributors bring to their topic, and the project is severely challenged to provide consistent quality.

That quality is not going to be improved by providing links to 2 or 3 selected Web sites that are highly biased and in one case (WebmasterWorld) criticized and ridiculed across the community. The SEO community has on several occasions wrangled with ethical issues and every time it has come up wanting. This latest brouhaha is just another example of how a very large and expanding community's interests are not going to be served by singling out a couple of high profile sites without acknowledging the wide and varied opinions in the community. Michael Martinez 17:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

>quality is not going to be improved by providing links to 2 or 3 selected Web sites that are highly biased

True...may as well remove the links to the search engine guidelines then.

- Aaron Wall, SeoBook.com

The SEO article needs a lot of work. It will probably take a year or more to get it into shape, and then who knows how long it will stay that way? Turning this into an "Us versus Them" argument only hurts everyone. Michael Martinez

The us vs them crap was already there before I commented (and it is not in one topic...that flaw is inherent to the Wikipedia across a boatload of topics). Aaron Wall

Aaron, that kind of pettiness doesn't help the situation. Few people in the SEO community have been as harshly critical of Wikipedia as I have but I at least have been contributing to articles and discussion here for some time. Rousing the legions of SEOs to come over here and berate the Wiki volunteers for applying and enforcing a policy doesn't make the SEO community look good in the least.~

The SEO article needs a lot of work. It will probably take a year or more to get it into shape, and then who knows how long it will stay that way? Turning this into an "Us versus Them" argument only hurts everyone.Michael Martinez 05:15, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Mike, that kind of pettiness doesn't help the situation. Few people in the SEO community have been as harshly critical of Wikipedia as I have but I at least have been contributing to articles and discussion here for some time. Rousing the legions of editors to come over here and berate the SEOs for applying decent content and links doesn't make the Wikipedia community look good in the least.~

The SEO article needs a lot of work. It will probably take a year or more to get it into shape, and then who knows how long it will stay that way? Turning this into an "Us versus Them" argument only hurts everyone.Aaron Wall 23:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Aaron, many hands make light work. Pick a paragraph or section and make a pass over it. Any improvement helps. IMNSHO we don't need to link to SEO help sites. People can Google for them! Right? If you can't find an SEO site via Google, it can't be worth very much. Jehochman 15:01, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

>IMNSHO we don't need to link to SEO help sites. People can Google for them! Right? If you can't find an SEO site via Google, it can't be worth very much.

I don't agree with that statement. While my site is on the first page of results if you search Google for SEO, a top ranking for such a term may indicated that either a domain is old or that the domain owner wasted money or effort focusing on that term when better rewards may exist elsewhere, with lower cost / effort being required to succeed.

If your selling SEO services it is more about branding than rankings. That is why you see so many people speaking at ALL the conferences. The only spot there is real money in SEO is working on your own sites, recurring subscriptions, or the edges (newbies or high end corporate clients) of the market. Sell newbies software and sell the high end clients consulting at x hundred dollars an hour.

Also, a person can rank near the top of the search results for SEO and still have little idea what they are talking about. If a person is good enough at selling and others believe them to be an expert when they are not they can still do ok. Since most of the market is working on limited knowledge and some of the most knowledgable people stay quiet it may not be too hard to fool much of the market. I ranked in the top 5 of Google for search engine marketing within 9 months of getting online, when I had absolutely no clue what I was talking about.

In reality, for topics that are thought poorly of and / or are deemed controvercial (like SEO) these talk pages will give a truer picture of the topic or industry or vertical than the main pages ever could (due largely to the ability to express or explain mixed motives and reasoning on these pages). Aaron Wall 05:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Moved from article

I moved the following (and some linkspam) from the article:

Optimize or Perish

Believe it or not, there are still many who are of the opinion that they don’t need to use search engine optimization. Those who are technically inclined, will need very little convincing that search engine optimization is an integral part of any website trying to attract traffic. Advertisers who either haven’t heard of SEO, or don’t understand why they need to optimize their website spend millions on more conventional forms of advertising.

Why focus on achieving a high ranking on search engines?

Because 85 percent of all website traffic is generated by search engines and it has become the second most preferred online activity after email. The majority of all web traffic is driven by the three major commercial search engines – Google, Yahoo, and MSN (AOL’s search engine uses Google for its search results). In fact, these three account for about 80-90 percent of all search traffic. Various studies depict that most people prefer to click on organic search results rather than sponsored results by a very wide margin. And among the organic search or “natural” results, 90 percent don’t go beyond the first 30 results.

This doesn’t mean that ads placed with search engine programs are useless; neither does this mean that this should be the only strategy of a company’s website marketing campaign. Search engine users tend to trust organic results more than paid ads, which means that they’re more likely to click on them – and more likely to convert. A good position in the search engines can’t be bought in the same way as a banner ad or a sponsored listing.

It reads like an advertisement for a SEO-company, but perhaps someone can salvage something from it. Rasmus (talk) 09:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)