Talk:Bene Gesserit/Archive 1

Archive 1

Egos and Souls

I reverted all the edits that switched "ego" with "soul". Even if "soul" is considered metaphorically, it's still inappropriate. Herbert didn't go into much detail about what the exact entity was in other memory, but there's strong implications all over the books that, whatever it was, it was present to the carrier as an ego in memory, and it was carried genetically. It's clearly stated that other memories exist only to the point where the next ancestor was conceived; later in the series, when the Bene Gesserit make a ghola of Miles Teg, Miles doesn't remember his own death because the flesh that was sampled was taken by Darwi Odrade prior to that. Other memories are definitely not souls in any religious sense, and the use of the term is misleading, at best. JJ 23:42, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I would point out though that Duncan Idaho (post God Emperor) had other memories of selves that he was not created from. He said himself that he did not contain physical aspects of all previous Duncans yet he contained all of their memories.

Bene Gesserit History and Powers

The Bene Gesserit began around the time of the Butlerian Jihad by incorporating together the groups of sorceresses such as those on Rossack. They operated behind the veil of a mystical school that served the Empire by training woman who were perceptive and physicly able, were often Truthsayers (that is they could detect sincerity and falsehood), and made good mates for royalty. However, the Bene Gesserit in reality acted as a secret society with its own motives. The motives were in short to mature humanity and guide it along to avoid its innevitable stagnation or destruction.

Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers were made so by changing an illuminating drug within their body which was achieved only after many years of training to have complete control of their body as an acolyte. The drugs differed throughout history the first being found on Rossack, and more powerful and effective ones were often found. The Reverend Mothers had the ability to see their entire female ancestry and held all of their memories which they would pass on if possible at death. They had plaes though that they could never looked based on their female physiology.

[It was not untill after the Arrakis incident that it was discovered that the Water of Life (bile from a drowned Sandworm), Melange in its purest form could be used to greatly increase the powers of the Bene Gesserit. The use of Water of Life was most likely first discovered by a Reverend Mother in extremis working towards the ends of the Sisterhood's Missionaria Protectiva.]

The Missionaria was a program that planted religons and superstitions among mankind in order to allow the Bene Gessetit to capitalize on them when necessary. they protected sister stranded among different peoples and also paved the way to their eventual use of the Kwisatz Haderach.

It should be noted that the title of Reverend Mother used by Fremen for their religous leaders does not mean that these people are part of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood. they deserve the title due to the fact that they changed the Water of Life but the title was implanted by the Missionaria and the Mothers serve no allegiance to the B.G.

The Sisterhood did not wish to control humanity directly from the throne because they knew that all who held power eventualy lost it. therefore, they worked behind the rulers of the Empire usually as their mates of wives. A way was seen to put a Bene Gesserit pawn on the throne however by creating a male Bene Gesserit called the Kwisatz Haderach. This male would be able to see what the women could not and have powers far beyond the typical revernd Mothers. They concocted a massive breeding program over millenia on order to arrive at this end. However due to the actions of a failed sister (Jessica) the Kwisatz Haderach arrived earlier than anticipated with far greater powers, and worst of all was independent. He ascended to the throne by his own means and his oracular powers guided his actions.

The Kwisatz Haderach (Paul Muad'Dib) was hated by the Bene Gesserit for his srtrict rule and because he ruined their plans. The rulers son (Leto II) however was hated far more. The son ruled the Known Universe for 3500 years as a religous figure after taking on the body of a sandworm. He took the Bene Gesserit breeding program from them and severly limited the availability of Melange to them. He set humanity on a path for survival he called the Golden path which and made it so that no one ruler would ever again have a complete hold on mankind by breeding to protect people from prescient searchers. After Leto II died the Bene Gesserit had been greatly matured and eventually gained a large ammount of direct control over many planets.

The Bene Gesserit sisterhood was faced with severe problems though when a seemingly infinite number of people from the Scattering of Humanity during Leto II's reign began coming back to the Old Empire. The Reverend Mothers that went out to Scatter seemed to have changed to something terrible in the face of new elements out in the scattering and returned as Honored Matres. Around this time a message from Leto was discovered accusing the Bene Gesserit of having no noble purpose and saying that they too will one day end. He challenged them to openly defend his Golden Path. the Mother Superior of the Sisterhood made a drastic decision to end Leto's hold on humanity and destroy Dune hoping that they could make spice on another planet. To do so they goaded the Honored Matres to attack by making a ghola capable of duplicating their sexual abilities. It was these abilities that had allowed the Hionored Matres to enslave planets and have such power.

The Honored Matres though hunted the Bene Gesserit down destroying planet after planet untill the Sisterhood's current leader Darwi Odrade made a risjy plan to unite both groups under a single Revernd MOther who was once an Honored Matre named Murbella. Murbella did so and the hope was to stop the violence that threatened to destroy humanity. It ws found that a great foe existed out in the scattering that had shaped the Honored Matres and caused their return and it was thought that the foe were Face Dancers who had achieved godlike abilities.

In the prelude book Battle for Corrin it is explained that the Sorceresses of Rossak started recording genetic information in an attempt to protect humanities gene pool from the Omnius Scourge (A plague released by the thinking machines in an attempt to wipe out humanity). They gained their powers from years of living on Rossak where its exotic flora had a mutating effect which seemed to effect only the women. I couldn't find any of this information in the beginning section at all. Enigmatical 22:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

New Brian Herbert Books

This page should discuss the prequals written by Brian Herbert regarding the start of the Bene Gesserit, as sect of telepathic warriors originally bred to fight off the machines, and later changing their role. Nuance13x 10:56, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it really should, but I just can't bring myself to read them again. --maru (talk) contribs 20:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow... if I ever needed an easily stated reason to avoid the prequels, this is it: "The Bene Gesserit were originally bred as telepathic warriors to fight off the machines." Brian Herbert's ridiculousness is complete. Justin Johnson 22:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I have about 200 pages left of the 3rd prequal and I have to admit that unless they "suddenly" reveal the origin within those pages teh above is not "totally" accurate. The "Sorceresses of Rossak" always had telepathic powers due to the fact that it was only females who possess this ability. They certainly were not bred to fight the machines (and in reality they can only fight Cymeks not machines), though they "volunteered" to train to be used as psychic weapons against them. Yes they were also responsible for starting the genetic recording program, but at this stage there is absolutely no reference to the KH at all. Whats more, Norma Cenva (who has now become the first Guild Navigator) was a daughter of one of the sorceresses. She was able to see prescient visions which included a reference to other memory (though not directly). Add to this Vorian Atriedes grand daughter who contracted the rossak's modified version of the Omnious Scourge and who was able to convert the virus in her body into an innert substance (something reverend mothers must do during the rite of passage) and it appears as if the origins of the Bene Gesserit is a little more complex. Either way, they were certainly not bred for the task and before they realised they could use their telepathic powers as a weapon they were not even warriors!!! I will report back here when I have finished the book. Enigmatical 22:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify by what I meant in the first sentance. It is already not totally accurate (ie they were not bred for it , they were never warriors, and it was not the machines they fought) regardless of what happens in the end of the last book, but due to the confusion between the Sorceresses of Rossak, Norma Cenva and Vorian's Grand daughter which all show aspects of the Bene Gesserit there may be something revealed near the end which sheds light on exactly their origin or how these 3 things get tied together. That is what I am hoping to find in the end of the book... if that doesn't happen then all we have is speculation as to how the different aspects came together. Enigmatical 01:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Naming of Bene Gesserit

Perhaps it might be mentioned in the article that Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers and sisters in the time before Emperor Leto seemed to have a naming scheme, i.e., a masculine Roman praenomen/nomen, followed by an English female given name, followed by an (invented?) "Dune" surname. E.g., Gaius Helen Mohiam, Quintinius Violet Chenoeh. -Lackwit 07:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The Lady Jessica

This is a technicality that I'd normally just fix, but I wanted to confirm it first. Does Frank Herbert ever refer to Jessica as Jessica Atreides? She's not actually married to Leto, and thus not really Atreides. The article on the character never refers to her as Jessica Atreides (except in a citation). This article, however, repeatedly refers to her as Jessica Atreides. --aciel 20:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, neither Brian nor Frank Herbert use the term "Jessica Atreides", specifically. I've grepped my fairly comprehensive collection of ebooks, and cannot find that term. --Gwern (contribs) 21:16 14 January 2007 (GMT)

You may have noticed, someone beat you to it; the Jessica Atreides article was moved to Lady Jessica on 1/13 and all links (!) adjusted. TAnthony 22:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the name again

List of Latin phrases (P–Z) lists the phrase as "quamdiu bene gesserit", no "se". Can someone verify or correct the info in the article? --Bensin 15:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Vajrayana Buddhism and Hindu appropriation

So prana and bindu are core terms in the vajrayana buddhist canon as well as some hindu tantra, has anyone compared their usage to what Herbert presents here? In the last twenty years more and more Tibetan secret texts on the subject of Tsalung and the Six Dharmas of Naropa have been translated. It's likely Herbert had access to some earlier works, but it is a quite specific appropriation. Manipulation of bindu in the Vajrayana is considered a fast track to enlightenment and also to developing magic powers like the ability to live in a cave without food or warmth for long periods. - Owlmonkey (talk) 01:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

"imprinter" redirecting here.

I can't believe "imprinter" redirects to the section on 'sexual imprinting'. I was looking for an article on a manual imprinter for credit card processing and this is what I get? "Imprinter" is too general for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.53.76 (talk) 02:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I would create a dismabiguation page, except that as you can see here, nothing but Dune pages link to imprinter. Even Imprinting has no credit card-related links. It seems as though you are not using the correct term. — TAnthony^Talk 02:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Image position / excessive white space

May I suggest to position the image File:ghm.jpg further down in the article to avoid the currently rendered excessive white space to the right of the Table of Contents; any position after the section "New Sisterhood" will achieve a better result. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:19, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Spice as awareness drug

Note that the water of life was not the awareness drug used by the Reverend Mothers untill after it was found to be in use by the Fremen by Jessica and Muad'Dib. Until then they used other narcotics.

I disagree. although it is true that they have used other narcotics in the past. Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers probably had access to the Spice Agony even prior to Jessica's encounter with the Water of Life. I would sift through the original novels for some more concrete evidence but as of now I don't have the time to. Would anyone care to validate my assertion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DvnInspiration (talk • contribs) 05:44, 14 October 2006

I was just reading Jessica's spice agony scene in Dune, and though she is admittedly a bit in the dark on the nature of the equivalent Bene Gesserit ritual on Wallach IX, she specifically notes that the B.G. back home don't do it that way, refers to Rossak drug, and is genuinely surprised at the source/nature of the Water of Life (I've cut out unrelated material in between these excerpts):

I am now a Reverend Mother, Jessica realized. And she knew with a generalized awareness that she had become, in truth, precisely what was meant by a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother. The poison drug had transformed her. This wasn't exactly how they did it at the Bene Gesserit school, she knew. No one had ever introduced her to the mysteries of it, but she knew. The end result was the same.

And she saw the thread of the past carried by Sayyadina after Sayyadina . . . refined through their own Reverend Mothers with the discovery of the poison drug on Rossak . . . and now developed to subtle strength on Arrakis in the discovery of the Water of Life.

But Jessica's attention was focused on the revelation of the Water of Life, seeing its source: the liquid exhalation of a dying sandworm, a maker. And as she saw the killing of it in her new memory, she suppressed a gasp. The creature was drowned!

TAnthony 23:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, if the BG was using the Water of Life their eyes would be blue, but unlike the Space Guild no mention of the ever wearing contacts to hide it during the original novel is ever made. 89.44.241.20 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC).

The novels don't suggest that exposure to the Water of Life makes the eyes blue, rather it is extensive exposure to larger quantities of the spice than would be considered "normal." You're probably thinking of the miniseries, where I believe Jessica is shown to suddenly have blue-within-blue eyes after surviving the spice agony.— TAnthony^Talk 05:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

History

I'm probably splitting hairs, but the following newly-added material in the "History" section feels a little more specific than what was actually conveyed in Dune, making it sound a little bit like editor analysis at times:

It is noted in Frank Herbert's original novel Dune that in the chaotic time after the Butlerian Jihad and before the unveiling of the Orange Catholic Bible, there were numerous movements devoted to developing human talents instead of machine ones: pushing the human mind and body through mind-enhancing drugs, mental and physical training, to its maximum potential. This was a time of "real sorceresses" and magicians, humans who developed amazing abilities. Out of this initial chaotic burst of ability, development of "human" potential was eventually consolidated by two "schools" or organizations, the Bene Gesserit and the Spacing Guild. The Spacing Guild concerned itself mostly with mathematics, developing a monopoly on interstellar travel. The Bene Gesserit, generally speaking, are ultimately concerned with "politics".

Pending some research in the novel's appendix and such, I'm removing it so it doesn't get forgotten in the edit history. Thanks. — TAnthony^Talk 23:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

"The Great Revolt took away a crutch," she said. "It forced human minds to develop. Schools were started to train human talents."

"Bene Gesserit schools?"
She nodded. "We have two chief survivors of those ancient schools: the Bene Gesserit and the Spacing Guild. The Guild, so we think, emphasizes almost pure mathematics. Bene Gesserit performs another function."
"Politics," he said.

"Kull wahad!" the old woman said. She sent a hard glance at Jessica."

--Gwern (contribs) 21:12 15 November 2009 (GMT)

Objection to wording

Referring to the sexual aspects of the BG as "crude" is not a neutral point of view.

And Christianity is referred to as a myth while Islam is given the amount of respect a visting monarch expects. Welcome to Wikipedia. =P Chrissd21 (talk) 05:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Canon issues

This article treats the continuation and prequel series as equal canon with Frank Herbert's original work. That is not a neutral point of view. CRATYLUS22 Oct 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.21.216 (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The different series are clearly delineated and separated in their own subsections in the initial History section, but I've added author names where appropriate for clarification. The BH/KJA stuff is technically canon, so simply specifying the novel or series for differentiation is appropriate later in the article. Favoring Frank over the others is equally biased. TAnthony 23:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

(An altogether SAD state of affairs...but I'm not contesting it, of course. --SandChigger 01:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC) )

Now you know I'm not saying that the original series isn't far superior, I just think the article is fine as written. Though now that I think about it, should we put the Legends section after the FH stuff, like I've recently done in the Vladimir Harkonnen article? Presenting it first does sort of set a tone I'm not altogether comfortable with. TAnthony 02:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Certainly moving the legends material to after the original series information would be more respectful, isn't it? The mere inclusion of BH/KJA material is a nod to them. I don't mean putting a seperate whole section at the end, but just within each subheading. And as a general question, why is the issue of canonicity considered closed? Different people have different opinions, and I don't think proprietary rights forbid a critical discussion. CRATYLUS22 October 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.21.216 (talk) 03:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Canon isn't about bias or which is better, it's about differentiating between original and fan fiction, basically. Yes, the later Dune books were written from F.H.'s notes, but they technically aren't canon as they weren't written by F.H.. Lord of the Rings canon in general referencing doesn't include anything compiled by his son, unless it's a full manuscript that's just published, not written, for example. Chrissd21 (talk) 05:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I definitely think anything from the new books should be placed after original FH content and appropriately labelled as later addition, even if they say the material comes directly from FH's notes. --SandChigger 05:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I did some work on Vladimir Harkonnen over the last couple of days that included this same kind of thing for that article, I will make a similar attempt here, maybe tomorrow. TAnthony 05:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

SandChigger, I believe that BH/KJA admitted that the end to hunters of dune, the identity of the old man and women especially, was their idea, not franks, so that lends more credit to the reordering. AidanPryde 07:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Aidan, do you have a link for that, where they actually admit it? I was speaking in general terms in my last comment above, not specifically about the Marty & Daniel fiasco. (Since Erasmus and Omnius are characters created by B&K, it seems highly unlikely that there was any mention of them being M&D in FH's notes. Kevin has made noises about there being some connection in the notes between the old couple and the Butlerian Jihad, but as usual he provides NO DIRECT QUOTES and, as in all matters of the notes and outline, we have only his word for it. Which, frankly, doesn't count for much as proof IMHO.) --SandChigger 15:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Bene Gesserit Motto

I'm pretty sure the Bene Gesserit have the public motto of "I/We exist only to serve" (can't remember whether it is I or We). Of course that wasn't their true purpose but before the Kwisatz came along nobody seemed to know any better (except the Gesserit themselves of course and some people 'probably' suspected) so it would have been accepted. Or am I imagining this? no account :( -86.31.53.255 17:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I seem to recall the Bene Gesserit did have a credo along those lines but it had a different connotation... not that they existed to serve the general public, but that any given member existed to serve the Bene Gesserit and that the Bene Gesserit existed not to hold power but to serve their long-term goals towards population / meme control and breeding. So the "serving" doesnt mean they saw themselves (or portrayed themselves) as subordinate but rather that they always kept in mind that their goals were bigger than any one person, or even any one generation.

OTOH, they do also have an aversion to naked power, preferring to use influence rather than direct action. That's captured in one of the quotes attributed to them, which I'll (probably mis)quote: "Climb a mountain just a little to test that it's a mountain". That's Frank Herbert being subtle... it's an interesting idea by itself but it also captures the great weakness of the BG - their reluctance to take absolute steps. Leto II seeks to change that, and succeeds - the post God Emperor BG takes a much more direct approach and has largely abandoned indirect influence. That's my take on it anyway. 203.217.150.69 (talk) 05:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Abomination

Leto himself says in Children of Dune that he is part-way between Ghanima and Alia with regard to being Abomination. He is closer to Alia because Harum exerts some influence on him. Suggest adding something about the continuum of possession from total-ego to total-chaos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.66.176.135 (talk) 17:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The Voice's Limitations

It has been stated several times during the original Dune series that the Bene Gesserit cannot apply the Voice on those who are unable to hear them. We've seen several characters take advantage of this fact -- both House Harkonnen (in Dune) and House Corrino (in Children of Dune) employed deaf people to guard Jessica of the Bene Gesserit, knowing that she could not control them via the Voice.

I added in the bit about the Bene Gesserit needing to know something about their targets for them to use their Voice effectively, because I believe it was implied in the books, or at least in the first book. The scene in Dune in which Jessica and Paul attempt to escape their captors after the Atreides palace in Arakeen fell is the clearest example in mind right now. It's not very clear-cut -- while Paul certainly was inexperienced in the Voice at that time, there was certainly an implication that different people could only be manipulated with the Voice in different ways, and that you needed to know your target well enough before performing the Voice on 'em. What do you folks think?--T-Boy 19:02, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think that sounds good, though maybe written in a hesitant way. Suggest that it "seems" this is the way it was meant to work. -(no account) 9-21-2005

Doubtful. Jessica and Paul escaped a 'thopter piloted by two anonymous Harkonnen thugs by use of Voice. Maybe we're getting a little too crazy about this?Yeago 00:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

This is from Dune, when Paul and Jessica are first captured in the desert by Stilgar and his band:

Jessica put all the royal arrogance at her command into her manner and voice. Reply was urgent, but she had not heard enough of this man to be certain she had a register on his culture and weaknesses.

and:

I have his voice and pattern registered now, Jessica thought. I could control him with a word...

It pretty clearly implies that using voice on someone requires at least a brief period of observation in the Bene Gesserit way to understand something about them, to know how to effectively use voice on them. JJ 18:51, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, ok. In some very dry sense I suppose you're right. Like, in order to know this communication with you will be useful at all, I will need to know something about you. I suppose I find that people are always coming to these Dune articles looking to make deep inferences ... sure, add whatever. Just keep in mind fellas... its fiction! All this blah blah blah'ing is missing the point. The stated similarities between voice and say, Hitler's power of vocal command are pretty relevant. Now, I'm afraid, the article is getting into nose-picky ground... Yeago 06:00, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

As the person who put in the Hitler comparison, I'm totally with you. Dune as metaphysics is gross. Go back through the history of the Mentat page and witness the battles I've had with some twit who keeps wanting to link his Vulcan-Mentat Transhumanism Yahoo discussion group. JJ 20:21, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm curious why the article refers to it as "The Voice" -- I dont recall any instance where it is anything other than just "Voice." Is there a particular reason why it is written that way? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Secher nbiw (talk • contribs) 09:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm doing a search thru my Word doc of the text and so far the seven times I've come across the term is preceded by "the," as in "using the Voice on me." This seems like the primary usage, though I also recall times when Herbert writes things like "he could hear tones of Voice" or whatever.— TAnthony^Talk 17:16, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Literary Legacy

Has anyone considered doing a section on the impact of the creation of the Bene Gesserit on the genres of fantasy and science fiction? It seems like you can't throw a brick in the fantasy section of a bookstore without hitting a Bene Gesserit knock-off (with Robert Jordan's Aes Sedai and Terry Goodkind's Mord-Sith being two of the more popular examples). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.126.108 (talk) 21:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)