Talk:A Troublesome Inheritance

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List of articles that can be added is found here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.72.183 (talk • contribs)

Two source lists good for checking the assertions in the book

You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of Intelligence Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues, and the bibliography Anthropology and Human Biology Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human genetics and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in these issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human intelligence to edit them according to the Wikipedia standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 20:06, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is best to remove the Jon Marks citations because they are ideologically fueled hatchet jobs.74.14.72.183 (talk) 23:45, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Marks is actually more of an expert on the topic than Wade is, as anyone familiar with the reliable sources on the topic is well aware. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 00:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of sources

Edits such as this seem to be motivated by nothing more than dislike for Jared Taylor, and should be reverted. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There has been previous discussion among editors concluding that the American Renaissance publication is basically not a reliable source on any other topic than the opinions of the American Renaissance publishers. That is why that source is highly disfavored in Wikipedia mainspace on most topics. On the other hand, here what is at issue is the opinions of various people about Nicholas Wade's new book, so just about any verifiable published source with a review of the book seems germane and appropriate for this article. See the Wikipedia reliable source content guideline for more details on why some sources are better for sourcing Wikipedia articles than others, based on what considerations. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 17:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is unclear to me why we would use a review by a fringe self-described "race realist", which was published nowhere but his own "race realist" website, when dozens of reviews are available from mainstream outlets, representing a broad range of views, including the paleo-whatever-ism of Charles Murray.[1] Are Jared Taylor or John Derbyshire experts on race or human genetics? Or are we including them simply because their views are extreme and notorious? I suggest that if we expand this article by summarizing the currently cited reviews, the article will be in pretty good shape without any explicit citation to the extremists. — goethean 18:03, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I respect your opinion. My educated guess is that the great weight of reviews of Wade's book by readers who actually know genetics will pan the book and urge readers not even to bother reading it. While the book is newly published, it's all right, in my opinion, to cast a wide net for reviews of the book, not least because then Wikipedians can point out which sources (mostly uninformed sources) take Wade's main argument seriously, and which sources (predominantly informed sources) point to specific gaps in his facts or his logical structure in his new book. Right now, I'm erring on the side of inclusiveness in editing this new article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 18:28, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that Taylor's piece can be included as a source for this article. The fact that a book is controversial doesn't mean that we can go away from the standard practice of only using reliable sources; and Taylor is a particular problematic source to use. I also think the article overall is verging on being in WP:Linkfarm territory; it should't be a collection of each and any reviews that are written about the book; unless those reviews are used to back up specific points in the text (we don't need a dozens diffs simply to say there is a book out there). Iselilja (talk) 20:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It occurred to me to request the new book from my friendly local public library (I'm not too far back in the request queue, so I should have the book at hand in a while) to keep a close eye on further edits to this article. I have many more important books to read on related topics, but I may as well keep this article on my watchlist as more reviews of the book are published in professional journals on the topics the book covers. If an editorial consensus develops here that the sources for reviews of the book should be restricted solely to sources that are undoubtedly Wikipedia reliable sources on the topics the book discusses, I would not oppose that consensus. Meanwhile, I note that another editor is using the existing published reviews to expand discussion of the book's content and argument, which seems like a very constructive and helpful way to build out a new Wikipedia article about a newly published book. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 18:13, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Review from epjournal

Can any editor with the time properly edit in [www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP1205090520.pdf this review]

More:

--The Master (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Critical Reception section is biased

How do I put the banner with the scale in this article (can't remember the name)? There are many good reviews of this book but none are included in Critical Reception. There's a bias against race realist input as if race realism is a fallacy, yet the evidence is shifting more and more towards proving race realists correct. 165.143.155.55 (talk) 14:40, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To the contrary, reviews of this book that are truly independent and by subject matter experts are just about uniformly negative. If you have recommendations of well prepared reviews that view the book favorably, how about listing them here? The Wikipedia reliable sources content guideline provides all of us a lot of guidance about what sources to look for when preparing a Wikipedia article about a published book. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:51, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Many of those "subject matter experts" are not "truly independent" as you claim. The passion with which they talk show a strong political bias. It's a fact that many closet race realists in the field cannot give this book a positive review to protect their jobs and shy away from the subject altogether. The reviews at WSJ and Washingtonpost were not negative and there were others. I don't have the time to look for them or to figure out how to put up the biased banner in this article but it IS biased towards race denialism. 165.143.155.55 (talk) 09:14, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let's get real. People with tenure in academic positions don't have to worry about how "to protect their jobs" in the sense described here. Rather, they would gain more notice as scholars if they followed the data and came up with something new and different. But the important point is that they have to follow the data to gain favorable notice, and so far most scholars who have spent the longest time looking carefully at the data do not agree with former newspaper reporter Wade, and are not shy about saying so. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Letter signed by many population geneticists against A Troublesome Inheritance + Responses

Look at these two: http://blogs.nature.com/news/2014/08/geneticists-say-popular-book-misrepresents-research-on-human-evolution.html http://cehg.stanford.edu/letter-from-population-geneticists/

& include this as a response http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/08/09/at-least-erroneous-in-faith/

74.14.22.58 (talk) 03:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wade's reply: http://blogs.nature.com/news/files/2014/08/Response-to-NYT-letter.pdf 105.184.176.43 (talk) 12:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Marcus Feldman's, Stanford population genetics professor and letter signatory, has written a post detailing Wade's failures of scholarship from the standpoint of the scientific community. http://stanfordcehg.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/echoes-of-the-past-hereditarianism-and-a-troublesome-inheritance/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 402DL (talk • contribs) 22:57, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

add this positive review of ATI

http://takimag.com/article/wading_in_the_zeitgeist_fred_reed/print#ixzz330ot77ea 74.14.72.65 (talk) 21:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are no apprehensions to me adding this in?

Heading text

Summary

I think that the IP editor who commented here that the summary section should not include criticism of the book's thesis has a point. It is perfectly fair to include critical comments that reviewers have made about a book in a section on its reception, but a section devoted to summarizing the book's thesis should only be about explaining what the book says - not about passing judgment for or against its ideas. H. Allen Orr's opinions about the merits of the book's thesis should be moved out of the summary section and into the section on the book's reception. ImprovingWiki (talk) 02:37, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree with the premise of your editing suggestion, but it's a good-faith suggestion, so let's discuss your recent edits of the article today (which I just rolled back) here, and see what all the other editors watching this article think. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 03:35, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A neutrally edited article does not stuff a section that should be only a neutral description of a book's contents full of criticism. It is foolish to suggest otherwise, and you seem unable to make any meaningful counter-argument. Beyond that, the supposed "consensus" for the previous version, which you used as an excuse for reverting me, does not exist. Rather, there was a dispute between Goethean and an IP; I've tried to encourage the IP to discuss here, but with no luck so far. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that I made numerous changes to the article, and that you reverted all of them, which included undoing changes that had no relation to the issue of whether Orr's comments should be in the summary or the reception section. Please be aware that that is aggravating behavior. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, ImprovingWiki, but that is because the overall condition of the article previously seemed to enjoy consensus, resulting from the edits of several other editors. I note for the record that I let you revert back to your desired state of the article and invited discussion here. I agree with your implicit suggestion that Goethean should be invited here to discuss the article edits. (I just checked his talk page, and didn't see an invitation here from you to him.) I'm eager to hear from the other editors what they think about how the reliable, published sources describe the book and what due weight would be here in describing a book that has been panned by many knowledgeable reviewers. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:18, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This behavior is common from WeijiBaikeBianji. I have asked the admins to deal with his disruptive behavior. Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#WeijiBaikeBianji Deleet (talk) 09:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I note for the record that that case is still in deliberation and that an arbitrator comment suggests that the boomerang principle may be applied in the decision on the request. The kind of behavior that is actually common from me is to carefully compile source lists that I continually revise and expand and to create good articles.[2] -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:18, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

good point, the entire edit should not be reverted if the issue was only a portion of he edit. Darkstar1st (talk) 07:51, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WeijiBaikeBianji, please be clear about what you are saying. You seem to be saying that because "the overall condition of the article previously seemed to enjoy consensus, resulting from the edits of several other editors" you will revert any edit made by me, without discussion, no matter how minor, and no matter what change is made. Sorry, but if that is your position, it is not acceptable. It implies that because of some supposed "consensus" the article is perfect and should never be changed. Surely you can't mean to say that? Edits should always be assessed on their individual merits. ImprovingWiki (talk) 21:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the invitation to be clear about my editorial judgment about how to improve the encyclopedia here. I am discussing, which is why I am here on the article talk page. There is a standing Wikpedia policy that requires Wikipedia to be edited on the basis of reliable sources. There is no Wikipedia policy or guideline that requires an article about a published book, as a book, to be organized in any particular way. If the overwhelming majority of reliable sources evaluate the same book in the same way (here, as a lousy book), it is perfectly okay for an article about the book to give due weight to what the sources actually say. We are not required to hide the ball from the readers of Wikipedia if they are coming by this article to find out more about the book and how accurate its contents are and whether or not it has been convincing to readers knowledgeable about genetics. If the book is a dog, we are permitted to call it a dog. I think that the edits to the article over the last month or so by several different editors reflected the sources, so I didn't see any problem with those. There are of course still issues of style or taste or emphasis to discuss here, and perhaps some newly published reviews, but I didn't think the article was in bad shape, even though I had rather little do with writing it, at the beginning of this week. Your statement "Edits should always be assessed on their individual merits" is of course correct and provides a basis for discussion here. (P.S. Have you invited the other previous editors of this article to visit this discussion?) -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is a matter of editorial decision whether to separate the summary of the book from the commentary on it or whether to intertwine them. There is no policy or guideline that I know of that can force a decision in either direction, such a decision is taken by editorial consensus. I think there are good arguments in term of clarity and organization to separate the summary from the commentary. I would like to hear what the argument for intertwining them in the summary section? IF the summary section has commentary from third parties then perhaps a dedicated section to reception is not necessary. I don't see WeijiBaikeBianji actually addressing this issue, since separating summary and commentary neither hides the critique nor censors it but simply makes it more easy for the reader to know what is summary and what is commentary.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, exactly. WeijiBaikeBianji apparently wants to mix the summary with the commentary to make the book seem as bad as possible. It would be more appropriate to keep the two separate; if the book received a mainly negative response, then that can be stated in both the lead and the commentary section, so there is no need to confuse matters by mixing summary with commentary. ImprovingWiki (talk) 00:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think that since several editors have contested this and none except Weiji have defended the current version (originally introduced by WeijiWaikeBianji on september 9th) it should be safe to say that consensus does not support his change and it should be reverted. Weiji's claim that his edit "enjoyed consensus" seem disingenuous in the middle of an edit war.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:48, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

agreed, it appears the current version is against the majority consensus and NPOV, perhaps the editor will agree to self-revert? Darkstar1st (talk) 07:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it seems it has already been reverted.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:55, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Both Letters that "denounce" the book are pretty useless, they dont give any specific reason for why they dont like the book and why they disagree. No data for why he is wrong and the rest of people they "denounce" too (Murray, Lynn, Jensen etc.). I cant even see why we should include this reviews they are just politcal correctness nonsense that disagree cause it can offend people - both even spend their time screaming about racism as that is a measure to refute the data. I find them rather useless to include.. MicroMacroMania (talk) 22:24, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually very highly significant that scientists who in some cases were cited by Wade have seen how their work was cited and have decried Wade's misuse of their findings. That's an unusual response to a popular book--usually everyone in academia is happy to get publicity for their research. I have some higher-priority editing projects to take care of first, but my plan is to find specific pages in Wade's book where various authors are cited, and then note whether or not those authors have publicly disagreed with Wade's book, as more than 100 scientists (cited or not) already have done. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:32, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that that is significant in itself that his sources, denounce his representations of them.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:47, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My problem is largely that they people who denounced the book havent given any specifics on why. I read through the two links to "decouncing" the book. They just write they disagree and never give specifics beyond screaming racism.MicroMacroMania (talk) 22:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They are under no obligation to oblige you to give "specific reasons".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:47, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That does not change the fact that they denounce something without giving a proper reason, beyond a political correctness anti-racism scream. How is that something worth to address? But if some of the people who Wade cite disagree with him, it might be worth something. MicroMacroMania (talk) 22:52, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read the letter? WHere exactly is that "political anticorrectness antiracism scream". They simply state that their research findings do not support the speculations made by Wade. That is a pretty specific reason. And furthermore they refer to Dobbs for additional critiques.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:29, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As already stated above, our job as Wikipedia editors here is to discuss how reliable sources evaluate the book. If we link to those sources, readers can decide for themselves how convincing the critiques are. It is well documented that this book has received a highly unusual number of critical reviews, and that scholars whose work is cited in the book disagree with the book's conclusions, and we shouldn't deny readers that information about the book. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 16:28, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I just honestly think it seems like political correctness stunt. But did you figure out if any of the guys Wade cite have denounced the book?MicroMacroMania (talk) 17:48, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]