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Assessment of redirects, categories, and templates

Hi. You might be able to give helpful input in this Village pump (misc) thread, concerning assessment banners on the talkpages of redirects, categories, and templates (Particularly the redirects). I'm curious about big-picture perspectives, and also coal-face problems. Also wanting to get those errors mentioned, looked at, by someone who knows these things. Much thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 23:18, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Module:WikiProjectBanner

Hello all. I've started writing a preliminary Lua module, Module:WikiProjectBanner, to supersede WPBannerMeta. It is still in the early stages, and I am still deciding exactly what features it should have. From the discussion above, and from my own ideas, I have come up with the following list:

• Unlimited task forces and notes - no more fiddly hook code.
• Implement all existing hooks in Lua. (Perhaps as sub-modules for complex hooks.)
• Detect invalid parameters without having to pass them through to the WikiProject template. (This is now technically possible, as Lua modules can see arguments passed to the parent of the invoking template as well as arguments from the invoking template itself.)
• Fully customisable class masks and importance masks that you can set directly in the module invocation. (No more need for a separate {{class mask}} invocation for each project.)
• Automatic documentation.
• Automatically generate TemplateData output on template documentation pages (see mw:Extension:TemplateData).
• Make parameter alias names available to the module. Previously, aliases were specified in the individual WikiProject templates (e.g. |tf 3 = {{{Nebraska|{{{NE|}}}}}}), and there was no way for WPBannerMeta to know whether or not an alias was being used. Explicitly defining aliases will enable good automatic documentation and TemplateData output.

I am sure that there must be other features that people would like, though. Is there anything that you have wanted to do with your WikiProject template that hasn't been possible with WPBannerMeta? Let me know and I will try and include it. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 11:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I think it would be good to also potentially do the following things:

1. Allow project to display their task forces horizontally like is done in Template:US Roads WikiProject. Kumioko (talk) 13:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
2. This is going to take a bit to explain but be able to allow a project to be marked as primary within a template and what order with most important on top. Template:WikiProject United States has a lot of projects it supports. But it would be nice if we could set which was the primary for the article. For example, for Arizona, we should set Arizona as the primary and let WikiProject United States display as the smaller associated project.
3. Potentially it would also be nice to display more than once on an article. For example there are occassions where more than one project may apply and there may be more than one "primary". Using the Barack Obama article I would argue that there are a couple of associated projects within the WPUS template that should display separately. That way one template could be used to display more than one project and use the core logic of that template once to drive the parameters and categorization that is shared by the multiple projects. Particularly when the projects have limited activity there is less of a need for them to have their own template and logic IMO. Kumioko (talk) 13:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

These are food for thought, although number one should be simple enough. I'm not sure I'm understanding two and three properly, though. For number two, would this mean essentially specifying an order to display task forces on any given talk page? And for your number three, could you give the names of the projects that you think should be separate on the Obama article? I think it would help me to see a concrete example. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 14:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Number 2 is basically just setting which project is set as the primary. So if you had multiple projects in a template we could set which one is the main one. So instead of the WPUS icon and info taking center stage and Arizona being smaller and embedded they would switch and Arizona would be the main one and United States would be the smaller one. I hope that explains it but I can create something to explain it graphically if that would be easier. For number 3, I think a good example would be the U.S. Presidents one. So instead of it being embedded with the others it would appear as a separate project within the wrapper like Kansas and U.S. Congress but still be coded in the WPUS template. That's just an example and I can give somem better ones if you want. Kumioko (talk) 14:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

No, I got it that time, thanks for the explanation. :) — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 14:51, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I've just thought of another question. In the case of the WPUS banner, at the moment the task forces are displayed in exactly the same way as the WikiProjects, because of the limitations in WPBannerMeta. But with this new module, we could remove this limitation. So if you could format the WikiProjects and the task forces differently, how would you do it? — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 09:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Well that's a good question. I'm not sure I know of a better way to display it. As I mentioned above I think it would be good to set the primary but other than that, I'm not sure. Kumioko (talk) 20:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Wow! This looks awesome. Lua can do all of those things? Maybe once you are done with this we can talk about a module to overhaul the article creation wizard or the teahouse host/guest signup process? Technical 13 (talk) 13:10, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Yep, that's all possible. You should learn some Lua too, I'm sure you would enjoy it. :) — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 14:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• It's on my loooooong todo list... I just bumped it up some and have been asking around trying to put together a "team" of sorts to try and put a framework together for some modules for this project. Would you be interested in just shadowing the project? Technical 13 (talk) 16:56, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

As for Kumioko's item 1, Template:Canada Roads WikiProject already does the horizontal taskforces. US Roads has other issues that would need sorting as well. Mainly their custom sort option. -- WOSlinker (talk) 14:15, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand what is meant by "display their task forces horizontally". Please give examples of talk pages where the WikiProject banner does this. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

See Talk:Yellowhead Highway, the Topics section in the banner. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:57, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see what it does - it feeds |TASKFORCE_TEMPLATE=Canada Roads WikiProject/taskforce into {{WPBannerMeta/hooks/taskforces}} and wraps that in some HTML to make a two-cell table row before passing that into |HOOK_TF=. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

That would be basically it as far as I am concerned. mw:Extension:TemplateData looks interesting. I would welcome an easy way to discover available parameters of a template, though I am not sure whether TemplateData would leave room for everything that would be relevant for Rater. Keφr 13:39, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

What other data would you be interested in having available? Perhaps we could file a feature request for TemplateData if the data would be relevant for multiple tools. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 14:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I am afraid some of it would not. Basically, grouping and type annotations — whether a parameter denotes a request, B-class checklist item, task force membership, more detailed information on allowed values than just "string", whether a parameter should be paired with another (like task force membership and importance, request notes). So either TemplateData should make these annotations available through its API or the template code itself should be simple enough to be directly parsed. Keφr 14:10, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Those are good points. I think the first thing we should do is check with the TemplateData people to see if including this kind of information might be possible. I'd also be interested to hear what kind of form the API might take. If using TemplateData turns out not to be doable, there are a number of other ways we could do it, though. We could roll our JSON on the template page, or get the template to output JSON when called with a certain parameter, or do everything with invisible html tags, etc. Using TemplateData sounds the most sane of all of these ways, though, so I'd prefer to go with that if it's feasible. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 14:41, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Skimming through source code, I see TemplateData does not offer arbitrary parameter annotations yet. I would prefer something light on the servers and cacheable, so if TemplateData turns out to be an unfeasible solution, that leaves me with parsing template markup directly. If the module is done well, that should be simple enough. Keφr 15:12, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

At the moment I find it easy to discover available parameters of a template; I just open up the template source and search for triple opening braces. From my experiences of those templates that have so far been converted to Lua, such as {{cite book}}, it is now much more difficult. This is because there is no single page which gives the parameter names in a consistent manner. Sometimes they're processed in the module itself; but sometimes it's a sub-module; and sometimes the sub-module, having detected a particular parameter name, then renames the parameter which is then picked up by the first module. Trying to trace whether a parameter is valid or not, and how it's processed is a nightmare. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Finding three braces is easy. Discovering what they mean, programmatically, is harder. This is drifting a bit off-topic. What I am talking about here is discovering what parameters a template recognises and presenting that to a user in a specialised tool. (Ever tried Rater? The current version is prototype-quality, really, and this data problem is one of the reasons.) Direct human users should be satisfied with the auto-generated documentation. Though I will note that I find no difference between chasing sub-templates like in {{WPBannerMeta}} and subroutines in modules, and that Module:Citation/CS1 is rather easy to follow in my opinion. Keφr 16:16, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I've seen repeated requests for date stamps on the assessments, so that people know how long it's been since the class was adjusted. I'm not sure that this is a good thing (it's a stub in 2007, it's a stub in 2008, it's a stub in 2009, it's a stub in 2010, it's still a stub in 2011...), but it's a common request. Less commonly, people ask for the name of the person who did the assessment.

You might want to advertise this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not think this is something that Lua can help with. An alternative {{quality assessment}} system has been devised to address this (and some other problems with the current assessment system), but it has not been adopted yet. And it still requires manually filling out the appropriate parameters, though a userscript could remove that burden. (In a few weeks I should have some free time to add this functionality to the next version of Rater. At last.) Keφr 20:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

If your talking about that horrible and complicted multipart grading nightmare that was done by WikiProject United States Public Policy for a while I hope it never gets implemented. We have a hard enough time trying to get articles assessed now with simple means. That would ensure they never get graded unless a bot does it. Kumioko (talk) 20:14, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Probably mine talking about that, yes. This might be a bit off-topic, but… what is so horrible about it? It makes sense for me. Please explain. Keφr 20:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

First, too much time is spent on assessments now IMO, this will make people spend even more time and will drive a lot of folks away. Second, most projects don't use the B-Class checklist for that reason, it takes too much time and third and more importantly, any assessment below GA is frankly fine as just a subjective guess. If its wrong, its just not that big of a deal. Stub, start, C, it really doesn't make a difference. Even B isn't that big of a deal. Its only when we get to GA, A (for those that use it) and FA/FL. So implementing something that requires a high degree of time and effort just isn't worth it. Kumioko (talk) 20:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Recommend adding Module Namespace to class list

As more and more templates are converted into Modules I think the need will arise rather soon that some projects will want to tag a module as they do for Templates. Adding this to the class list isn't all that hard but before I do that I wanted to start a discussion to see if anyone has any comments or problems with doing so. Kumioko (talk) 13:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

They could just be bundled in with the templates. -- WOSlinker (talk) 13:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

That's true too. Good point. Kumioko (talk) 13:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

New editor needs help

There is a request for help with a malfunctioning WikiProject banner at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council#Templates from a relatively new editor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I've got the template working for them. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 23:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

B-class articles are shown as C-class

I have added the B-class checklist hook to {{WikiProject U2}} and it shows (Rated C-class) for articles that have been assessed as B-class. So, I had to add the 6 parameters to all B-Class U2 articles to make them run correctly. I've also noticed that {{WikiProject Songs}}, {{WikiProject Comics}} and {{WikiProject Apple Inc.}} — and probably many others — have the same problem. Thanks in advance & happy editing! –pjoef (talk • contribs) 12:50, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

By design they are only shown as B when all checks are completed. Agathoclea (talk) 13:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Module:Pagetype

I've created Module:Pagetype, a replacement for {{pagetype}}, and I am thinking of updating the template to the Lua version later on this week. The Lua version has some differences from the current template, so I would like to get others' comments before making the switch. Please let me know your thoughts over at Template talk:Pagetype#Module:Pagetype. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 14:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Draftspace detection and auto-classification

The video games WikiProject has expressed an interest in categorizing drafts-class articles. Instead of implementing draftspace detection and auto-classification on our individual banner, it would seem to make more sense to do it here on the meta template so all projects can use it. (Similar to how redirects are currently configured to auto-classify.) Thoughts? czar ♔ 16:17, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I did also already post at Template_talk:Class_mask#Draft_namespace, which seems to handle the underlying class selection logic. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 17:05, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I've made the changes so that the WPBannerMeta now supports it (if the projects uses a class mask) but there is still a couple of issues that need discussing, namely, the colour and the icon to use for Draft. -- WOSlinker (talk) 18:46, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

What about a red X for an icon? (meaning not-live) and pink or red as the color? It'd be eyecatching. -- 65.94.76.3 (talk) 06:04, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

This is only one of about a dozen templates that need to be updated for this that I know of. There are several that's haven't been touched yet. Template:Documentation for example might need to be updated. There are also at least half a dozen media wiki pages (and probably more). Kumioko (talk) 13:07, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Red X is already in use for Unknown-Class: {{classicon|No}} → . You can see most of the icons (except that for User) in the list at the top of the documentation of Template:Class/icon (the table towards the bottom is incomplete). Pinks are not a good idea because these are used for the importance scale. You can see most of the current colours (except those for AL, BL, CL, No, Draft) in the strip at the top of Category:Articles by quality. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:40, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

There are two unknowns listed, one of them is a question mark, which makes logical sense, since it's an unknown... I don't see how unknown makes sense with an X. Since it uses "no", then this would be none-class?

I suppose modifying the stub-class icon, with a less filled in pie? (1/3 pie?) And Brown? (representing brown wrapping paper, of an article yet to be unwrapped)

-- 65.94.76.3 (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

How about and light pink? I don't see pink used in the articles-by-quality spectrum above. (Not-so-good alternatives: ) czar ♔ 15:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I like the paper/pencil icon. Not sure X fits. I'm not sure the red/pink color match the draft purpose, but it's true pink isn't used by anything else. We could just use some shade of gray (kind of like "needed" class) -- not yet a real color. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 16:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

It depends upon what you mean by "pink". The importance scale uses saturated tints of magenta, some of which are decidedly pink; see {{Importance/colour}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:57, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Good catch. I think "light pink" would conflict with the "importance" palette. Some other ideas: light coral/salmon, sandy brown, wheat, golden rod, medium aqua marine [sic] from this chart. czar ♔ 20:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I also think the paper/pencil icon fits this nicely and would be in favour of wheat or medium aqua marine from the above list. Samwalton9 (talk) 21:24, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Some examples mentioning the colours from above: -- WOSlinker (talk) 09:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

#cccccc	wheat	aquamarine	pink	brown	toadd	toadd	toadd	toadd
Draft	Draft	Draft	Draft	Draft	Draft	Draft	Draft	Draft

Any updates or thoughts on this? Samwalton9 (talk) 00:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

demospace and page parameters

It might be nice if you would support the demospace and page parameters from {{namespace detect}}; that would make it much simpler to see what happens when a banner template is used in various namespaces. —SamB (talk) 21:04, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

please see Template:WikiProject New York Theatre

Please see Template:WikiProject New York Theatre It´s putting talk pages on thr worng place and I thing I haven't resolved the issue. Thanks, NelsonCM (talk) 15:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@NelsonCM: I've fixed it, and I've also written some basic documentation for the template. If you are still seeing Category:Theatre templates on talk pages, it is because the category updates are queued in the job queue and haven't yet been carried out. If you don't feel like waiting for the job queue, you can make a null edit to the affected talk pages. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 16:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I amplified the doc entries for the three parameters. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:57, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@NelsonCM: this edit wouldn't have worked, because it appends the category to |IMAGE_LEFT_LARGE=60px which is intended for an image size specification. {{WPBannerMeta}} doesn't expect categories to be placed "inside", except on the (very few) parameters that are intended for text - such as |MAIN_TEXT=. The version that you amended it from was basically OK, except that the }} and <noinclude> shouldn't have been on separate lines, but butted up together, as in }}<noinclude> --Redrose64 (talk) 20:45, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@Mr. Stradivarius: Thank for your explanaitions. I must say that the banner confused me and it never came to my mind the "documentation" (Normaly it's that the Template that I'm used to see and I got lost!!!). Since I was short in time I thought it was better to ask for help. I'll wait for the job queue. Thank you. Keep up the good work. NelsonCM (talk) 22:40, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@Redrose64:Thank for your words. That edit was a "Hail Mary". I knew I'd made a "My bad" so, also because I was short in time, I thought it was better to ask for help. Thank you. Keep up the good work. NelsonCM (talk) 22:40, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Need help at Template:WikiProject United States Public Policy/class

There is a little different code at Template:WikiProject United States Public Policy/class than is normally used for the custom class mask. I'm trying to get the template to sort Categories, Redirects, etc., into their correct categories. Here is an example of the problem at Category talk:Foreign relations of the United States. The WPUSA template shows "Category", but the USPP template shows "NA", and it seems to overide the USA template. Would someone be able to help with the code? Thank you. Funandtrvl (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

That code was never designed to use the full quality scale. Those categories were created in 2013 and the code was never updated. It might be worth asking the project (or Ragesoss) what they want. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:01, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Why does {{WikiProject United States Public Policy/class}} not use the standard {{class mask}} technique? See for example any of these. Look for the box beginning "This WikiProject banner uses {{WPBannerMeta}}, a meta-template for easily creating and maintaining banners and talk-page notices."; in that there should be a bullet "A custom class mask is in use." Click the link in that bullet. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I realize that the USPP template was not designed to have the full quality scale. However, US Public Policy articles can also be tagged using the WPUSA template, and that template has the full quality scale. When an article or category, etc. is tagged with both the WPUSA and the USPP templates, a category page is not put into the Category-Class category, it is going into the NA-Class category. I was just trying to clean up the difference between the actions of the two templates. Funandtrvl (talk) 17:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Question

Is there the option in this template to provide assessment for groups not visible in the template, such as the Dogs banner providing Mammals assessment, as per WT:COUNCIL#Tagging multiple wikiprojects in the same "family"? John Carter (talk) 20:42, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, use Template:WPBannerMeta/hooks/qualitycats. -- WOSlinker (talk) 21:55, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

{{WPBannerMeta/hooks/qualitycats
  |class={{{class|}}}
  |BANNER_NAME={{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}
  |category={{{category|¬}}}
 |QUALITY_SCALE      = standard
 |ASSESSMENT_CAT     = mammal articles
 |MAIN_CAT           = WikiProject Mammals articles
}}

As someone on the short bus about markup and syntax, how could this be applied to {{WikiProject Equine}}? Or, for that matter, dogs, cats, and the other animal projects? If I were to do this at the equine page, I honestly don't know how to implement this... and, WikIProject Equine already has a cleanup listing for the project itself, we wouldn't want to lost that? Montanabw^(talk) 22:45, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Here it is in the equine sandbox -- WOSlinker (talk) 10:47, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, so if you implement that in the real template, do we who care still get the WPEQ-specific listings like this, this and related listings? Montanabw^(talk) 02:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, all the equine stuff will still be the same, all you get is some extra mammal categories added to the talk page. -- WOSlinker (talk) 07:01, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

@Plantdrew: will this above solution address your concerns about articles appearing on the WP Mammals cleanup list? Montanabw^(talk) 07:54, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

The main problem including the mammals categories within the equine banner is that pages such as Talk:Zara Phillips andd Talk:Cart would then be included in mammals, so you are going to be adding a lot of people and objects. Just wondering if that's what you want to happen? -- WOSlinker (talk) 08:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's that or Plantdrew will need to add about 1000 WP Mammals tags to the equine articles... and the cat/dog/etc ones... which I don't think necessary, but I'm trying to see if there is a middle ground.  ;-) Montanabw^(talk) 08:25, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

There are two possibilities: (i) add the code to the Equine box as suggested above, but also add a parameter so that the extra categorisation only happens if you set that param, e.g. |mammals=yes (ii) leave the Equine banner alone, put code into the Mammals banner instead, but again, it would need a parameter like |equine=yes --Redrose64 (talk) 08:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I like the "mammals=yes" idea for the equine box the best. That would, I think, address @Plantdrew:'s concerns without cluttering up the talk page with a bunch of wikiproject boxes. Would it be an invisible parameter or would it make more sense to add a very small "this article is also monitored by WikiProject mammals" or something? Should we also take this to the cat, dog and other projects that Plantdrew has concerns about? (Seems like an elegant fix to me) Montanabw^(talk) 17:10, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Unable to translate the term importance into Tamil

I have been trying to bring this importance scale concept into Tamil Wikipedia. I translated WPBannerMeta and also /importance scale, but the {{IMPN|importance}} is still hurdle. Even if I introduce the Tamil word for importance, it is still showing up "importance" in the translated template and not the Tamil equivalent of "importance". Please guide me in how to deal with IMPN [1] - Vatsan34 (talk) 06:40, 5 July 2014 (UTC)