Talk:PROSE modeling language

This page (PROSE modeling language) is very incomplete. I just started editing it. I need to upload some personally created image files (Figures). for insertion into it (dealing with copyright issues). Is there a way to create the article offline and then publish it? Beartham (talk) 16:38, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you can put it in your user namespace: User:Beartham/PROSE modeling language. Be sure to use the page move option so that the history is kept; if you can't move because you're not yet autoconfirmed, then I can do it for you if you like. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 09:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article is pretty much complete now, except for the references, which I intend to start adding now. I would appreciate any criticism (recommendations). Since PROSE was the world's introduction to the MetaCalculus paradigm, which had a long history before and after PROSE, and is being resurrected in the cloud now, I am now going to start another article (MetaCalculus) that will discuss its evolution from the Apollo era to date, including its origination of WISC (writable instruction-set computers) in the 1980s, and its potential future merging with other paradigms to simplify K-12 STEM education and renew growth in R&D markets. Beartham (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've tagged the article with the {{more footnotes}} tag. The article makes quite a few bold claims, and I'd like to see specific references, preferably with page numbers (you can use the rp template for that). QVVERTYVS (hm?) 19:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your concern about the bold claims, and I appreciate your assistance in asking for the specific references, as I definitely want people to research them. I added hyperlinks to make this easy. There is an important back-story as to the reason the claims seem bold. What has happened is that the industry mainstream has diverged into intermediate disciplines that never were motivated to escalate DIY modeling as we were.

For example, it has been an embarrassment to the academics of the Autodiff movement that FortranCalculus, the 7th generation MetaCalculus modeling language, was demonstrated at their very first conference in 1991 on a Toshiba laptop. Consequently, in all their many publications, they don't even mention PROSE, which had been a commercial time-sharing language 17 years before, even though its example broke the dam of academic resistance to "non-symbolic" calculus for them to grow their movement. In Kuhn's scenario, PROSE shifted the paradigm, and the autodiff people have been engaged in phase three normal-science puzzle solving and publication ever since. Yet nobody has yet built the escalator to automate modeling, or even seems to know how.

PROSE laid the groundwork for calculus hardware. In the 1980s we designed and built this WISC hardware, and created two key patents, the latter becoming famous in the "patent-troll" infringement case against Intel. The reason we are coming forward in Wikipedia now is that we want to see this "metacomputer host architecture" emerge again as quad-core WISC elements of many-core RISC chips to support nested AD in hardware logic. Both of the patents have expired now, paving the way for open-source software-in-hardware development, automated by Metacybernetics. Beartham (talk) 20:50, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're saying "we are coming forward in Wikipedia". You are aware of the rules on conflict of interest and original research, right? QVVERTYVS (hm?) 09:01, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am certainly aware that as an originator of these technologies, I have a perceived conflict of interest in seeing them emerge into mainstream awareness. I do have a few colleagues who have been involved in these technologies since the PROSE era. As I do want to comply by your rules, I will ask them to take over the editorial role. Thank you for your valued clarification and support. Beartham (talk) 21:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Advert and Technical tags

The entire article is written in a very technical and jargon-y style, and is probably incomprehensible to almost all Wikipedia readers as written. "Yet AD was applied in nestable iterative holons in PROSE semantics, giving rise to a threefold alphabet of holistic operator templates for very-high-order mathematical modeling" - Heck, I can't tell if this is a real statement or word salad. And if this is a real statement, it's only going to be comprehensible to a very narrow and deep specialty. And the computing related definitions of "holons" and "holarchy" appear to have been added to those articles recently as well.

It also reads very promotionally, and all of the references appear to lead back to a single website (www.metacalculus.com), and I'm concerned that even meets the standards for notability. This appears to have been a minor language/system in the seventies, which is being used to promote a new commercial(?) product along similar lines. Rwessel (talk) 00:09, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from a user of 39 years

I'm also involved in PROSE & FortranCalculus (FC) education. We have a website, http://fortrancalculus.info, for a textbook of applications that were solved via PROSE or FC. Many of these applications could NOT be solved without these calculus level languages ... especially those that use nested solvers. It is nice to have Joe's history notes as stated here even if they are above most of our heads. Some day these comments may help future developers make great strides in furthering computer software in the future. Just keep future software simple to work with as the goal.

A little history ...

From 1975 to 79, I taught PROSE to Engineers & Scientists that were time-sharing customers in the San Francisco Bay Area. The following cases are results from customers using PROSE: 1. Aertech had a thermistor problem: they build black boxes (for space) that need a thermistor that fits 3 data points. Each black box has unique data points. In order to solve the problem, Aertech allowed a technician up to 16 hours to solve for one set of data points using a (Basic or Fortran) software program. If not solved, the problem was pasted on to an Engineer. The Engineer had up to 2 hours to solve the problem. If still not resolved, the black box with hard to fit data points was dismantled and part of it was switched with another unit awaiting assembly.

A PROSE program was written to find the best solution. 5 thermistor problems were submitted as a remote-job-entry on our time-sharing system. The results took less than one minute to solve all 5 problems and all solutions used the fewest number of thermistors! A huge time-savings for Aertech!!!

2. Watkins-Johnson (WJ) had a similar problem: 2 Engineers were trying to fit a straight line to a curve and getting no where fast. I met these Engineers and couldn't get them to slow down and explain their problem to me. Finally, after a month, one sat down an explained their problem. Within 2 hours we wrote PROSE code to solve their problem. WJ won the government project do to the PROSE solution! (No other competitor was able to solve the problem!)

3. Memorex attended my class and hired me to write a PROSE program to build a Matched Filter for their disc drives. This required solving a generalized transfer function, H(s), that would take an asymmetric input signal and convert it into a symmetric output signal. PROSE coding was done in the first day (8 hours) of work. It was tweaked/modified over the next 2 years. Solutions were always optimal for the given PROSE code.

Here is ware I became aware of problems with having the right equations. This was solved in the frequency domain but with time it became apparent that the problem needed to be solved in the time domain. Without PROSE we probably would never have seem this domain problem. PROSE gave instant solutions to each modification thus got our efforts off coding and got us focusing on our math equations. This work was published in an 1981 IEEE journal and a copy is on my web site at http://fortrancalculus.info/example/pulse-slimming.html . The problem was put into an application for all to use ... see http://fortrancalculus.info/apps/match-n-freq.html

PROSE and soon FortranCalculus are for Engineers & Scientists ... when they have some equations to solve. Write their (10 or 10,000) equations in Fortran code then add a FIND statement (and INTEGATE stmt. for Differential Equ.s) and add some begin & end statements and you have a the basic code for a PROSE program. Can't get much simpler! Perfect for Engineers & Scientists.

I trust this gives a better picture of what Calculus-level compilers can do for us non programmers. OptimalDesigns (talk) 18:03, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]