Talk:Lasso (programming language)

Is Lasso a major programming language?

Hi there. An anonymous user recently added Lasso to Template:Major programming languages, and I don't know enough about it to support or contest this change. It's necessary to be selective in this template to keep its size down.

Some more specific questions might be: How broad is the userbase? Has it been used in some particularly notable applications? I don't see anything in the article regarding this. I will remove it if some compelling justification isn't provided within a few days. Thanks. Deco 23:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, I'm that anonymous person. I wasn't logged in while I wrote. I'll leave it to others to answer your questions. Jussi Hirvi 8 Dec. 2005

Depends on how you define "major". Lasso is used by over 1,000 colleges and universities and more than 15,000 corporations around the world, including Apple, Cisco, Sun, Disney, NASA, the UN, Goodyear, Siemens, and has a large international following.

It would be safe to say that almost wherever you find a group of FileMaker users you will also find Lasso users/developers. I've been working with Lasso for 3 years in a special project with the Ohio Department of Education. It has proven to be the most flexible, user friendly and safest programming language our group has used within the department thus far.

Lasso is very worthy of holding a candle next to ASP (.net), PHP, JSP and CF. While Lasso still has a relatively small developer base, it's implications for data driven web sites are huge and is growing by leaps and bounds every day.

Jtorres 15:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Some examples I have collected include Apple's online Made4Mac guide at http://guide.apple.com/index.lasso, http://www.eurway.com/, http://allaboutbranding.com/, http://www.pprmi.com/ (Prudential), http://plasmadictionary.llnl.gov/ (Lawrence Livermore National Labs), http://thedaily.washington.edu/, http://galvestondailynews.com/, http://www.listsearch.com/, http://www.buywake.com/

I've personally used it for the California State Office of Education as the central info source (demographics, education history, health history, and more) for all foster youth in one of the largest CA counties (and more to come). It's used by county officials, educators, group homes, and others. As a participant in the LassoTalk developers list for six years now, I know that Lasso is used in apps like this for numerous governments, schools, and businesses.

While it began life as primarily a FileMaker thing, Lasso has since version 5 (2001) connected to more databases than most of today's vogue languages/web framework combos, and people I know use it with MySQL 4 & 5, Postgres, MS SQL Server, Oracle. Now at version 8.1 Lasso has been around for 10 years and matches any capability that any of the other major web languages has. Just have a quick gander at this site: http://reference.omnipilot.com/

Hope that helps (Greg Willits)

Lasso is the primary language we use to develop all our sites. I say include it!

Cory

As a developer of the Lasso Language for more than 6 years, Lasso is definitely a very mature and rich middleware application. Lasso has been proven in several businesses that I have worked for over the years. Revival Soy (www.revivalsoy.com) is a medium-sized company with more than 350,000 transactions/sales per year which runs on Lasso. The Conservative Voice (www.theconservativevoice.com) runs on Lasso and generally has 50,000 unique visitors per day. There are many LARGER sites that use lasso, but it's often hard to tell as many developers mask Lasso by just using the .html extension.

In it's early years, Lasso was primarily used as a connector for Filemaker Pro. In fact, Filemaker purchased and licensed the language and called it CDML for Claris Dynamic Markup Language, however Lasso still evolved over the years and has become to this day, a very rich and mature language.

The Lasso Language is used in nearly every industry from real estate, shopping portals, flight booking, blogs and government sectors. Most people that use Lasso talk of it's short learning curve because it's "tags" are in relatively plain english and someone with good HTML experience could pickup the core coding techniques in just a few days.

Lasso primarily connects to MySQL & Filemaker Pro to create web enabled databases applications but has an ODBC connector to connect to other databases such as Oracle, Postgres, MS SQL Server and 4D among others.

Another good point of Lasso is that it has a write once, host anywhere ability as the source code is the same to run on Windows, Red Hat Linux and Mac OS X. (With few exceptions).

Sincerely, Marc Pope

Worthy of Inclusion

I would include it. It's the leader in connecting to Filemaker databases as well as the best tool for working with MYSQL that I have found. lewissan

It would seem that if PHP is to be included as a "Major Programming Language", one would have to also include Lasso. The two are often compared and contrasted in the same manner Illustrator and Freehand are, with ease of use clearly falling on the side of Lasso. As far as using Lasso for connecting to sophisticated backend databases, Lasso is unrivaled in its simplicity. For a list of hundreds of sites implementing Lasso in its various incarnations, you can visit: http://www.lassodevelopment.com/sites/

-Rick Dwyer

With Lasso being around as long and in some cases even longer than other web development languages, I find it incredible the question is even being asked. Our business uses Lasso for building web products for tht real estate industry. WWW.pprmi.com handles a billion in real estate sales and is ranked in the top 50 real estate companies. www.fivestaragents.com is another using Lasso that we handle that is just behind in those numbers. Other industries also using Lasso includes SpamHaus.org, Apple, NASA, University of Arkansas, Revival Soy and Cambridge Antibody Technology just to name a few.

- Jim Van Heule

Having spent over a decade working with Lasso as my primary major programming language, and writing a book on the language back in 2000 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556229615/ there are certainly thousands upon thousands of us who know what Lasso is and use it in our everyday life. Lasso should certainly be included as a "Major Programming Language".

- Duncan Cameron

I started using lasso in 1997 when I got tired of writing cgi scripts to display filemaker data on a web page. I gave up on using php because it was too time consuming to understand. However the ease of use of lasso was amazing and I was able to run the inventory, sales and scheduling for a small advertising business and communicate with sales people in several eastern states. My only background was a fortran 4 course I took in 1969. I write this as an example of lasso's ease of use. Now many years later and many versions of lasso it is used in 5 international science societies for ecommerce, billing, elections, renewals, membership, shipping, reports and a wide variety of administrative tasks all backed by MySQL. These societies all publish journals and lasso serves tens of thousands of articles in pdf form to subscribed members and institutions. I have seen elsewhere on Wikipedia the suggestion that to gauge the popularity of lasso is to google .lasso. For a fact the web pages lasso serves for the science societies are parsed by lasso but have html and htm as extensions so that scheme would not result in a correct answer. Lasso is and has been my major programming language for 16 years and should be included as such.

- Gordon Nord

platforms

"quote: Lasso Server runs on Mac OS X, Windows 2000, Windows 2003 and Red Hat Linux."

I'm running it on windows XP right now (don't worry, not production ;). Just for making sites locally so i don't have to keep uploading files), and i doubt it only runs on Red Hat's flavor of Linux. Which other platforms does it run on?

- Jonne (can't be arsed to log in)

php bottles of beer

Link to PHP version of bottles of beer on the wall goes to the wiki PHP page that doesn't mention the bottle of beer algorithm.

Lasso Security

"It is not appropriate to describe actual security protocols in a public document. Please refer to the LassoSoft website for a further description of the Lasso security system."

That just isn't correct in any way. There's no reason why security details on Lasso's site shouldn't be posted here, and no reason why they should embrace security by obscurity, in a programming language even.Tmcw

popular (sic)

The given source "mentions" Lasso, but demonstrates the reverse: it is not a "popular" language. Another source is needed, to replace this one. TEDickey (talk) 22:18, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The link does not directly articulate popularity. However, as a comparable scripting language Server-side scripting, Lasso would be the 7th most popular native web language in the world (after PHP, Python, Perl, ASP, Coldfusion, Lua and Ruby - according to this particular site, quoted by the author on the LassoLab talk page as an indicator of popularity). The 7th most popular car company is Bugatti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_automobiles#Brand_bestsellers). The 7th most popular spoken language is Bangali (http://listverse.com/2008/06/26/top-10-most-spoken-languages-in-the-world/). Perhaps we should delete those from Wikipedia? ;) --Seanstephens (talk) 01:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The charts in the given site illustrate what the developers of that site conceived as popularity. If you would like to invent a new meaning for the term, be aware of WP:OR as a guideline TEDickey (talk) 01:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the authors of that site explicitly state popularity, except that the language should register in "most of our existing data sources". By that specified indicator, the authors of the site are including all languages listed as "popular" - which follows from the site title "Programming Language Popularity". By inclusion on this site, a language can therefore be defined as "popular" - Popularity.--Sean Stephens (talk) 01:52, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest replacing "popular" with "widely used". Popular is a very vague and subjective term, and we programmers like precision and clarity. Stevepiercy (talk) 04:52, 27 October 2013 (UTC)stevepiercy[reply]

I'll buy that. It's also how other languages are described - without citation - so it stands to reason that this description can be used in this context as well. I say, make it so! --Sean Stephens (talk) 12:43, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alternatively - as no other languages on Wikipedia describe popularity or usage other than Python (which, I will note, uses "widely used" citing links where "widely used" does not appear) - I suggest we remove the subjective "popular" and/or "widely used" from the initial sentence altogether. --Sean Stephens (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Widely-used should be quantifiable (comparing with the obvious https://www.google.com/search?as_filetype=lasso#psj=1&q=filetype:html and https://www.google.com/search?as_filetype=lasso#psj=1&q=filetype:php - among others, even if google's result counts were useful - shows lasso as an insignificant fraction of what google reports). langpop uses google for 3 of the 8 charts, by the way. TEDickey (talk) 21:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be applying your own definition of "widely used". If you would like to invent a new meaning for the term, be aware of WP:OR as a guideline. By your own admission, https://www.google.com/search?as_filetype=lasso#q=filetype:lasso (17MM) is one fifth of https://www.google.com/search?as_filetype=lasso#q=filetype:py (78MM) (the file extension for Python, where the words are used uncontested - you are confusing Python and PHP, methinks). So, using the uncontested article for Python as the basis - you would agree that Lasso would be, under this definition, "widely used". --Sean Stephens (talk) 00:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GHITS are not reliable source

See WP:GHITS to understand why this promotional statement has no reliable source TEDickey (talk) 22:38, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most language popularity projects on the web use WP:GHITS - either as raw searches on "X programming" or file type as an indicator of language popularity. As these sites (e.g. langpop.com, http://lang-index.sourceforge.net/, etc.) are the basis of Wikipedia articles on popularity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=langpop&go=Go), this argument is inherently weak. Suggest redacting this inclusion. --Seanstephens (talk) 01:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not. Most experienced editors appear to frown on using ghits - hence the guideline which I pointed out to you. TEDickey (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Though experience editors may frown WP:DNB, the point stands: popularity indexes use this logic, so it stands to reason - as reliable sources - in this context it is valid. Perhaps this needs to be changed to point at the popularity site data as noted? --Sean Stephens (talk) 02:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

misuse of "often"

Two closely-related examples do not provide a basis for stating that something is done "often". Those may be the only examples from several million possibilities, making the statement non-factual TEDickey (talk) 22:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now that's a good point. Although they may be "often" compared in the Lasso community, they aren't "often" compared in the media (the basis of most of Wikipedia's knowledge base). Editing... --Seanstephens (talk) 01:36, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As per note above, with removal of the word "often", other citations can be removed surrounding comparison to other programming languages. One remains viable on http://w3techs.com - it is a list of "Server-side Programming Languages Market Reports", which is by default, a comparison. --Sean Stephens (talk) 03:41, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The page is pretty clear that they are paid-for products, and as such likely to be less neutral than wanted for a reliable source, and unlikely to be verifiable TEDickey (talk) 21:14, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then let's use our classic langpop.com as a reference, if you believe it is critical to have a reference. Ironically, the languages are comparable, based on facts previously stated in the article. Ergo, it's WP:CK. The article is now suffering from WP:DRIVEBYTAGGING and WP:OVERTAGGING. --Sean Stephens (talk) 01:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

As per the WP:NOTABLY guidelines, enough notable sources exist to clearly show Lasso as notable. These include;

November, 2001 - FileMaker Pro Advisor Magazine publishes an article titled Getting Started with Lasso that provides a step-by-step introduction to writing Lasso code for beginners.
November, 2000 - Macworld magazine reviews Lasso Studio for Dreamwevaer giving it 4.5 out of 5 mice and citing it as "the easiest way to create a database-driven Web site."
April 19, 1999 - Infoworld Magazine cites Lasso with its new XML support.
February 1, 1999 - EmediaWeekly Magazine cites new JavaScript module in Lasso.
February, 1999 - MacNow Magazine awarded the Lasso Web Data Engine a Reviewers Choice Award.
December 14, 1998 - EmediaWeekly Magazine cites Lasso's new support for Microsoft Personal Web Server on Windows 95/98.
October 28, 1998 - Microtimes (circ 250,000) provides feature story on how Kaiser Permanente, one of the world's largest HMOs, deploys Lasso and FileMaker throughout their organization.
October 19, 1998 - EmediaWeekly Magazine features Lasso 3 with Windows NT and ODBC support.
August, 1998 - Macworld magazine awards Lasso 2.5 its highest mouse rating with 4.5 mice.
June 15, 1998 - PC Week covers Lasso 2.5 as part of feature on e-commerce and FileMaker Pro.
April 15, 1998 - Lasso 2.5 Earns 4 Stars in MacWEEK Review Highlights include the following:

"Lasso's depth and power are astounding." "It offers good security features and an extraordinarily high degree of control over the presentation of information." "The Lasso Server is stable, easy to configure and can handle several dozen simultaneous HTTP requests with ease."

June 2, 1997 - Lasso 2.0 cited in MacWEEK "Lasso 2.0 gains Java hooks" article. The complete article is available at: http://www8.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1122/in_lasso.html
May 22 1997 - MacWEEK cites Blue World and Lasso in Symantec Visual Cafe Pro article. See http://www8.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1121/in_visual_cafe.html
April 25, 1997 - Lasso is cited in MacWEEK magazine feature story entitled "New Web tools help servers link to legacy data." Regarding online commerce capabilities, Lasso is cited as a "good, low-cost choice... as it provides basic cyberstore templates". MacWEEK also states, "Lasso's strengths are it extensive built-in commerce and e-mail features.". Quoting Dave Parkhurst of Education Technology Inc., MacWEEK states that "...he Dave P. is convinced that Lasso is the most powerful of the products. 'We also had to have a tool that we could support in-house without a team of expensive programmers.' Parkhurst said. 'Lasso again won out.'"
Feb. 14, 1997 - Lasso Wins Macworld Editors' Choice Award and recieves 4 stars. Macworld Magazine concludes " Of the three I tested, Lasso was the fastest.. " and that Lasso offers "...excellent support for advanced FileMaker Pro features, outstanding formatting control, fast performance, and thorough documentation..." Macworld magazine concludes "Lasso is a database-publishing demon".

Question of notability to be removed. --Sean Stephens (talk) 02:06, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest removal of reference to primary sources as well. Though citations may be currently lacking, no relevant sources list the current primary source (LassoSoft Inc.) directly. --Sean Stephens (talk) 02:12, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to be quoting from #18. Without reading the original articles which are quoted, it's not possible to filter out advertisements and press-releases, and see which are third-party reviews. TEDickey (talk) 21:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation - see WP:NRVE. Ergo, the sources are notable, despite your not having read them. Notability is not temporary WP:NOTTEMPORARY. There are also a dozen other notable sources in this post. The journals within which these articles exist are listed on Wikipedia (e.g. MacWEEK/EmediaWeekly, MacWorld, Infoworld, PC Week, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanstephens (talk • contribs) 00:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup Complete

As per wikipedia guidelines surrounding cleanup, and thanks to User:Eric3K plus others, all sections of this article have been cleaned up. Suggest removal of this issue at the top of the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanstephens (talk • contribs) 04:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Citing change to LAMP Architecture from MacOS

I'm not sure how to find a citation for this fact, as per WP:COMMON. If you check the definition of this;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAMP_(software_bundle)

You'll see that it classically involves Linux, Apache, MySQL and a middleware language. By Lasso being released on Linux, Apache and MySQL (and Apple's OSX also inheriting this environment), it's more of a fact than something that can be cited. Trying to cite a source for this would contribute nothing to its reliability while acting as a detriment to its readability (Wikipedia:Citation overkill). Ergo, I propose removing the citation request or rewording this sentence to something that doesn't require citation. It's not fallacious. It's just an obvious fact to a developer, and part of history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanstephens (talk • contribs) 14:14, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lasso 8 as most popular (sic)

I'm not sure there is a basis in literature (or fact) that Lasso 8.x is the most popular language, by the definitions stated above in section "popular (sic)". There are, to my knowledge, not enough historical records to assert such a claim. Ergo, am changing the text to reflect various products introduced by Omnipilot - and a note about the longevity of the product (Lasso 8 was, by simple math, the longest interval between version releases). --Sean Stephens (talk) 15:17, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

coding samples versus open-source

Referring to the product as partially open-source is misleading, given the provided source. Many proprietary/closed-source products provide coding samples to support their documentation. TEDickey (talk) 21:27, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

FileMaker "cuts off" Lasso

From the article: "At around the same time, FileMaker moved functionality that was previously embedded in the web companion and CDML into FileMaker Server. No third party software could 'speak' directly to a FileMaker database, which severed the direct connection of Lasso with FileMaker."

I'm not sure if this is true, and I can find no reference for it. Can anyone comment?