Module talk:Citation/CS1/Archive 6
CS1 comparison testcases
We can have several pages of testcases for wp:CS1 cites, including:
- wp:CS1/test_parameters - list of cites to show each parameter
- wp:CS1/test_basics - list of cites to show basic, typical examples
- wp:CS1/test_problems - list of cites which test known problems/fixes
The massive complexity of the 430+ parameters in the wp:CS1 cite templates requires a large set of testcases, to provide some assurance of handling the astronomically huge set of endless combinations of rampant variations of parameter names. The testcases will provide a basic "sanity test" of the overall functionality, because the testing of all possible parameter groups would exceed the age of the universe, several times over. This is a typical case of combinatorial explosion: "the cite templates can be rewritten within 1 year with Lua script, but would require 90 billion years to completely test". The possible count of testcases starts with 430 factorial (430! ~= 2.2946e+947), or zillions of parameter combinations, where setting "first=" to blank might erase "author=x".
Comparing the related templates: For each new Lua-based template named with "/lua" then the original markup-based template will have a permanent copy as "/old" to compare the side-by-side results, even after the Lua versions are installed with the current template names. For example:
- Template:Cite_web - {cite_web} live, whether markup or switched to Lua-based
- Template:Cite_web/lua - the Lua-based version of {cite_web}
- Template:Cite_web/old - the markup-based version of {cite_web} as the old copy
- Template:Cite_book/lua - the Lua-based version of {cite_book}
- Template:Cite_book/old - the markup-based version of {cite_book} as the old copy
- Template:Cite_journal/lua - the Lua-based version of {cite_journal}
- Template:Cite_journal/old - the markup-based version of {cite_journal} as copied
Again, the focus must be on confirming just the general parameters, with occasional variant spellings; otherwise, there would quickly be hundreds of thousands of parameter combinations. However, without some form of sanity check, then the complexity of the CS1 cites would become impossible to handle. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:03/06:21, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Volume bolding
| Wikitext | {{cite encyclopedia
|
|---|---|
| Live | LAST1, FIRST1; LAST2, FIRST2 (YEAR). "TITLE". In EDITOR (ed.). ENCYCLOPEDIA. Vol. VOLUME (EDITION ed.). LOCATION: PUBLISHER. pp. PAGES. ID. Retrieved 2006-07-02. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |volume= has extra text (help); Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
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| Sandbox | LAST1, FIRST1; LAST2, FIRST2 (YEAR). "TITLE". In EDITOR (ed.). ENCYCLOPEDIA. Vol. VOLUME (EDITION ed.). LOCATION: PUBLISHER. pp. PAGES. ID. Retrieved 2006-07-02. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |volume= has extra text (help); Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
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| No bolding on the volume? | |
Is it intentional to remove the bolding on the volume of an encyclopedia? Dragons flight (talk) 03:41, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Looks like only volume numbers four characters or less are bolded. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
| Wikitext | {{cite encyclopedia
|
|---|---|
| Live | LAST1, FIRST1; LAST2, FIRST2 (YEAR). "TITLE". In EDITOR (ed.). ENCYCLOPEDIA. Vol. 1234 (EDITION ed.). LOCATION: PUBLISHER. pp. PAGES. ID. Retrieved 2006-07-02. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
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| Sandbox | LAST1, FIRST1; LAST2, FIRST2 (YEAR). "TITLE". In EDITOR (ed.). ENCYCLOPEDIA. Vol. 1234 (EDITION ed.). LOCATION: PUBLISHER. pp. PAGES. ID. Retrieved 2006-07-02. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
|
- Intentional non-bolded longer volume names: For years, there had been suggestions to unbold the volume name when using a volume-name title, and so beyond 4-character length, it inserts a dot and omits the prior bolding, "Volume III: Garrish to Nominal" because the bolded name had appeared too garrish, too excessive, in many current articles. In fact, the unbolded volume was requested, again, on 21 February 2013, in the above thread "#series/volume/publisher order". For the markup-based templates, a rapid {padleft} can be used to detect and unbold beyond 5-character volume names. -Wikid77 11:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- How was the 4-character limit derived? I see your objective, but I don't think this gives the right answer for
|volume=XXVIIIor|volume=55–56for journal cites. Rjwilmsi 15:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- How was the 4-character limit derived? I see your objective, but I don't think this gives the right answer for
Editor problem
| Wikitext | {{cite book
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|---|---|
| Live | Playfair, Major-General I.S.O.; Stitt, Commander G.M.S; Molony, Brigadier C.J.C.; Toomer, Air Vice-Marshal S.E. (2004) [1st. pub. HMSO:1954]. Butler, J.R.M (ed.). Mediterranean and Middle East Volume I: The Early Successes Against Italy (to May 1941). History of the Second World War, United Kingdom Military Series. Uckfield, UK: Naval & Military Press. ISBN 1-845740-65-3. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)
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| Sandbox | Playfair, Major-General I.S.O.; Stitt, Commander G.M.S; Molony, Brigadier C.J.C.; Toomer, Air Vice-Marshal S.E. (2004) [1st. pub. HMSO:1954]. Butler, J.R.M (ed.). Mediterranean and Middle East Volume I: The Early Successes Against Italy (to May 1941). History of the Second World War, United Kingdom Military Series. Uckfield, UK: Naval & Military Press. ISBN 1-845740-65-3. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)
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| Incorrect labeling on the editor | |
The Lua version replaces the "X ed." editor marker with a nonsensical "In X" expression. Dragons flight (talk) 03:49, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Document collections use "In Editor" format: Some users have preferred the format as "In Editor" rather than "Editor, ed." and so that is why it has been displayed. Because wp:CS1 style is a hodge-podge of cite styles, the Lua module was originally written to use a few styles for all citations, rather than mimic each of the prior 23 {cite_*} fork templates. -Wikid77 11:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- PS. There is also a change to the author list, where the old version had an ampersand. Dragons flight (talk) 03:54, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Changes in page / date handling for cite news
| Wikitext | {{cite news
|
|---|---|
| Live | "Auction Record for an Original 'Alice'". The New York Times. 11 December 1998. p. B30. |
| Sandbox | "Auction Record for an Original 'Alice'". The New York Times. 11 December 1998. p. B30. |
This is a case where the new version is different, but not necessarily wrong (i.e. both approaches seem basically reasonable). The label on the page number and the placement of the publication date appear to have changed in the handling of cite news. I assume this was probably intentional, since it seems like too large a change to be accidental. However, I tried skimming this page and didn't find any discussion of this, so I thought I would highlight it. Dragons flight (talk) 15:47, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- That's a change to cite news, but it doesn't seem to discuss the page and date rearranging. The example given doesn't use the agency or location fields. Dragons flight (talk) 15:55, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- My bad. Not sure how I connected this. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:02, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- That's a change to cite news, but it doesn't seem to discuss the page and date rearranging. The example given doesn't use the agency or location fields. Dragons flight (talk) 15:55, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Reset page format as "p." for Cite_news: There had been an overuse of the colon ":" page format, and so I changed when config.CitationClass is "news" to use the p./pp. page-number format. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Test cases
Are we, through the current process, developing a (near-) comprehensive suite of test cases? Should they be captured and documented for future use? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Expanding representative sets of testcases: The goal is to expand the various pages, of numerous testcases, as issues are noted in importance, such as testcase essay "wp:CS1/test_problems". See above: "#CS1 comparison testcases". The tactic has been to view the pages during a run-preview when editing the Lua Module:Citation/CS1, so the testcases need to be kept limited, at first, so the pages are not too large to view during a run-preview. Because there are potentially unlimited billions of billions of parameter combinations, I expect the testcases to be expanded for years. The complete testing of parameters would exceed the age of the universe, many times over as a combinatorial explosion of parameter choices. -Wikid77 10:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone in 3-year upgrade of CS1 cites
As we can finally see the light at the end of the fast-cite tunnel, with {cite_news} being converted to Lua, I want to take a minute to thank everyone for observing, and debating, and analyzing, and rewriting or fixing the wp:CS1 templates to run much faster and smarter, in both markup and Lua versions. Although the major slowness had been extensive use of {cite_web}, {cite_book}, {cite_journal}, and {cite_news}, the remainder of the 23 {cite_*} forks can still benefit from enhancements to the cite formats, such as fixing some double-dot ".." problems, even in the markup-based cite templates. The core markup Template:Citation/core will continue to be used to support the other {cite_*} forks, which have not been converted to Lua, as well as supporting the long-term comparisons with {cite_web/old}, {cite_book/old}, {cite_journal/old}, and {cite_news/old}, etc. In fact, as the major cites are converted to use Lua, then {Citation/core} can afford to run a little slower, to provide better formatting, for the remaining few cases of other {cite_*} forks which do not use Lua yet. Anyway, the overall improvements have involved many people, in debates and suggestions as well as template/module changes and testing, so let's take a minute to thank everyone for helping, in this 3-year (or longer) transition to better CS1 cite templates. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:24, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Testing Cite_book and date/page
The template {cite_book} should put parameter "others=" (illustrator) before "edition=" as in {cite_book/old}. Like {cite_news}, the place/publisher should not use parenthesis brackets "(__)". Although previously ignored, {cite_book} should put quotation marks around the parameter "title=" when having "journal=" or "periodical=" or "magazine=" or "work=" (yet rarely used). When there is an author/editor, then "date=" should follow that in "(...)" but without author/editor when only "title=" then date should precede the page-number. Also, {cite_book} uses the p./pp. page format.
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Test Cite_book title only. Illustrated by J. Doe (2nd ed.). 1 May 1998. pp. 32–4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)
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| Sandbox | Test Cite_book title only. Illustrated by J. Doe (2nd ed.). 1 May 1998. pp. 32–4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)
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Sandbox: Test Cite_book title only. Illustrated by J. Doe (2nd ed.). 1 May 1998. pp. 32–4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Test Cite_book title+work. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
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| Sandbox | Test Cite_book title+work. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
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Sandbox: Test Cite_book title+work. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
Placement of other parameters has been shifted, slightly different from {cite_book/old}. All parameters for {cite_book}:
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Author (Date) [Origyear]. "Chapter Name". Test Cite_book Parameters. Department (Type). Series (in Language). Vol. Volume. Others (Evening ed.). Place: Publisher. p. page. arXiv:ArXiv. ASIN ASIN. Bibcode:Bibcode. doi:10.DOI. ISBN Isbn. ISSN Issn. JFM JFM. JSTOR Jstor. LCCN LCCN. MR MR. OCLC OCLC. OSTI OSTI. PMC PMC. PMID PMID. RFC RFC. SSRN SSRN. Zbl ZBL. Id. Archived from the original (Format) on Archivedate. Retrieved Accessdate – via Via. Quote {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help); |page= has extra text (help); |volume= has extra text (help); Check |arxiv= value (help); Check |asin-tld= value (help); Check |asin= value (help); Check |bibcode= length (help); Check |doi= value (help); Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help); Check |issn= value (help); Check |jfm= value (help); Check |jstor= value (help); Check |lccn= value (help); Check |mr= value (help); Check |oclc= value (help); Check |osti= value (help); Check |pmc= value (help); Check |pmid= value (help); Check |rfc= value (help); Check |ssrn= value (help); Check |zbl= value (help); Check date values in: |accessdate=, |date=, and |archivedate= (help); External link in |ref=harv (help); More than one of |pages=, |at=, and |page= specified (help); Unknown parameter |agency= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |chapterlink= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |coauthor= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |doi_inactivedate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysource= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |notracking= ignored (|no-tracking= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |titlelink= ignored (|title-link= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |transcript= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |transcripturl= ignored (help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link)
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| Sandbox | Author (Date) [Origyear]. "Chapter Name". Test Cite_book Parameters. Department (Type). Series (in Language). Vol. Volume. Others (Evening ed.). Place: Publisher. p. page. arXiv:ArXiv. ASIN ASIN. Bibcode:Bibcode. doi:10.DOI. ISBN Isbn. ISSN Issn. JFM JFM. JSTOR Jstor. LCCN LCCN. MR MR. OCLC OCLC. OSTI OSTI. PMC PMC. PMID PMID. RFC RFC. SSRN SSRN. Zbl ZBL. Id. Archived from the original (Format) on Archivedate. Retrieved Accessdate – via Via. Quote {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help); |page= has extra text (help); |volume= has extra text (help); Check |arxiv= value (help); Check |asin-tld= value (help); Check |asin= value (help); Check |bibcode= length (help); Check |doi= value (help); Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help); Check |issn= value (help); Check |jfm= value (help); Check |jstor= value (help); Check |lccn= value (help); Check |mr= value (help); Check |oclc= value (help); Check |osti= value (help); Check |pmc= value (help); Check |pmid= value (help); Check |rfc= value (help); Check |ssrn= value (help); Check |zbl= value (help); Check date values in: |accessdate=, |date=, and |archivedate= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help); More than one of |pages=, |at=, and |page= specified (help); Unknown parameter |agency= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |chapterlink= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |coauthor= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |doi_inactivedate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysource= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |notracking= ignored (|no-tracking= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |titlelink= ignored (|title-link= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |transcript= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |transcripturl= ignored (help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link)
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The "volume=x" will unbold when 5 or more characters. The correct placement for date in {cite_book} has only 2 styles: for date to follow author/editor, or when only "title=" to precede the page-number. The placement of parameter "others=" is a major issue, such as for name of illustrator. So, I have changed Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox for CitationClass "book" to show "others=" before the edition data as in {cite_book/old}, but for CitationClass "journal" to display "others=" after authors/editors and before the title as in {cite_journal/old}. I think that was the only major problem, and then {cite_book} should be ready to transition to Lua. -Wikid77 19:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Cite book does not support the periodical parameters, and I can't see the need. It does support chapter, which interacts badly with periodical:
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | "Chapter". Title. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
|
| Sandbox | "Chapter". Title. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
|
--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
- Suggest to ignore illogical combinations: At this stage in transitioning to use Lua, I think we need to ignore the billions of illogical combinations of parameters, where it is unusual for a user to specify a periodical name, with article "title=" and then insist "chapter=" as well. We are currently past the point where changing Module:Citation/CS1, to fix one problem, is very likely to break another feature, among billions of parameter combinations. I did not design the overall Lua module, and I would have strongly suggested the Lua version should have closely mirrored Citation/core with 23 fork driver functions, rather than try to force the one Lua module to, internally, mimic the actions of 23 forks all combined into a mass of multiple if-conditions to block interactions among all the forks combined into the same logic flow. However, the original Lua module was even more complex and tried to combine those 23 forks, plus the Vancouver Vcite format, plus some {smallcaps} options of other cite formats, and the nightmare of instant "creeping featurism" has been the result. Also, note that Lua only allows 200 variable names within a single function, so there is a limit to having more parameters, and currently the multiple alias spellings are folded into a single variable name each. I am still worried that too many tangent issues will delay the release of the Lua-based templates. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Bibcode Colon, and the separators following various IDs
Omit the colon in "Bibcode:Bibcode" data: For option "bibcode=" there is a spurious colon added in the Lua version (during last year?). Other than that, I think the {cite_journal} users will be happy to have 6x faster cites in the medical/science articles. See: Pneumonia, Cancer, Cystic fibrosis:
- Run: {{#invoke:CiteConversionTest|test|Cancer}}
Most journal cites look almost identical in format with the Lua version. Like an echo. Like an echo. Everything else seems good to go. I think many scientists will not even notice the Lua version is formatting the {cite_journal} data. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not actually sure it is accidental. If you look at the separators following the Lua identifiers, we see that:
- arXiv, Bibcode, and doi use colon (":")
- ASIN, ISBN, ISSN, JFM, JSTOR, LCCN, MR, OCLC, OSTI, PMC, PMID, RFC, SSRN, and Zbl use space (" ")
- I could easily believe that someone wanted to use space after all of the uppercase ones and ":" after all the mixed case ones, but somehow missed Zbl.
- The only difference between Lua and the older templates right now is that Bibcode was moved from using a space to using a colon.
- So, we have several possible options.
- We could leave the configuration as is.
- We could revert Bibcode to use space, matching the current templates, but leaving doi and arXiv as the odd ducks.
- We could convert Zbl to use ":", so all mixed case IDs use colon and all uppercase IDs use space.
- We could convert all of them to use ":" as a separator.
- We could convert all of them to use space as a separator.
- Personally, I think the choice of separators here is pretty unimportant, and none of these options would bother me, but if people have strong feelings one way or the other, it might be good to share. Dragons flight (talk) 19:04, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
- I am also ambivalent. The stand-alone {{Bibcode}} uses a colon. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:15, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Transition Phase-6: Cite_web to Lua
As the 6th phase (of 9 major steps), we are ready for {cite_web} next. I think some editors are concerned that their "favorite" cite templates have not been transitioned yet, so we need to upgrade faster, to quicken most edit-previews. I have created typical testcases:
- Module_talk:Citation/CS1/test/web - testcases similar to {cite_news}
Again, based on the corrections and success of prior phases, each next phase becomes less risky because the one Lua Module:Citation/CS1 runs 99% the same for all cases. The transition of {cite_news} to Lua, on 19 March 2013, quickened many major pop-culture articles to edit-preview, or reformat, within 19 seconds (over 20% faster). Next, the transition of {cite_journal}, on 23 March, ran even faster, because many medical/science articles use mostly {cite_journal}, with numerous slow PMID/PMC, doi or Bibcode parameters, and the speed improvement was 2.5x times faster for article edit-previews of many science articles. The more parameters used, the slower the cite, for Lua or especially markup. Also, there was a significant unlinking of Template:Citation/core afterward in another 114,000 pages, from the prior 1.74 million pages to 1.65 million, where the only cite templates in use had been {cite_journal} or also {cite_news}, as unlinked now. In this next, massive, transition phase, {cite_web} affects almost every remaining wp:CS1-style article, to rapidly quicken 1.6 million articles to speed most articles for edit-preview within 3-8 seconds. Expect almost 1 million articles to delink {Citation/core}. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- Has the pdf export bug been sorted yet. We were asked to hold back until it was.--Salix (talk): 20:20, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Completed -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Transition for Cite Book
Rather than following Wikid77's schedule, I'd prefer to convert {{cite book}} to Lua before {{cite web}}. Firstly, cite book has 400k uses rather than 1.3M for cite web, and I think it is better to work our way up to the really large one so we catch any additional issues. Secondly, I've already spent the time working up a set of test cases for cite book, Module talk:Citation/CS1/test/book, including fixing a couple of new bugs that hadn't been caught during the prior iterations. I think we are probably ready to convert {{cite book}} today, assuming that no one can point to any additional unresolved problems. By contrast, I haven't yet studied any cite web testcases, so I'm not personally confident on whether or not there are still additional bugs for that case. Dragons flight (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- This sounds fine to me. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:51, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- Avoid delays for superstitious fears: Sometimes, it can be difficult to make progress when dwelling on superstitions about user concerns, and the fear of making "mistakes" while delaying the deployment of improved templates. Always try to prioritize the cost/benefit analysis, to balance the delayed benefits which outweigh the cost of potential incompatible changes. Because {cite_web} is very similar to {cite_news} (but without "newspaper=" or "periodical="), and 99% of the Lua-based cites share the same Module:Citation/CS1, then in effect, the testing for {cite_news} already tested the majority of features for {cite_web}. Meanwhile, almost 4,900 articles will be improved when {cite_web} is transitioned to Lua, to no longer blank the "separator=" option, to cause run-together cite parameters in the References section of those 4,900 pages. More than 25,000 articles will then display the singular page "p. nn" to fix the common typo "pp. nn". Also, the Lua cites are restoring the COinS metadata, into 1.8 million articles, for processing by User:DASHBot to update dead-link URL address links. After {cite_web} is updated, then there is the need to restore the COinS metadata into Template:Citation/core, which can afford the extra 20% slower COinS processing because {Citation/core} will be only rarely used, after delinking from almost 1 million pages once {cite_web} is upgraded. Also, long-awaited enhancements to {Citation/core} can be added, even though slower, because the Lua-based cites will reduce the overall reformat time. Until {cite_web} is transitioned to Lua, then the required changes to {Citation/core} would trigger reformatting of all 1.6 million pages, which is likely to cause users to ask why Wikipedia is running so slow again. Hence, we need to avoid changing Module:Citation/CS1 continually, and instead, try to batch a set of changes in the /sandbox version and wait until several issues are collected, and then update Citation/CS1 for minor changes, combined, in a single update. In cases of emergency, then {cite_book/old} or {cite_web/old} could be used to provide the prior formatting, until all related changes are collected within the Lua /sandbox version for installation in the live Citation/CS1. Prioritize whether a problem can be handled by using {cite_web/old} versus a Lua update which will reformat over 800,000 pages for those small changes, at this point. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- "Superstitious", really? Every round of this I've personally found a few more bugs not caught in the previous round. In addition to that, I woke up today to find another half-dozen new bug reports from other users. Lua is an unambiguous improvement for performance and also includes many formatting bug fixes, but that doesn't mean we should rush it into deployment without studying each major version for possible regressions. You've complained several times now that this deployment is taking too long. Frankly, I've started to find those complaints a bit annoying. For a project like this where the number of deployed uses is very large and the set of possible configurations is too enormous to comprehensively validate, I think we have actually been moving quite quickly over the last couple weeks. You are perfectly free to try and convince some other admin to move more quickly, but as long as I am the one actually doing the installation, then I plan to move at a pace that I am comfortable with. In the mean time, your help reporting, analyzing, and fixing bugs would be appreciated. Dragons flight (talk) 16:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- No way to thank people enough: I am sorry when being so busy, I don't even have time for proper explanations. Even trying to thank you, and Gadget850, for sacrificing the prior weeks to test and update the markup and Lua versions to match, cannot adequately emphasize the impact of the cite-transition efforts, as one of the greatest performance improvements in the history of Wikipedia. The profound impact is not just the instant fixes of over 100,000 clerical errors (such as "Inc.." or awkward "pp." for singular page), nor the 6x faster edit-preview of citation sections, nor even the re-addition of the COinS metadata to reconnect dead-link sources to archive URLs, but the overall impact is the system-wide reduction in resource usage, to quicken most major articles as reformatting 2x-3x faster. If the Top 1000 articles formerly needed 5 hours to reformat, then those can be re-displayed now, in perhaps just over 1 hour. Also, the Lua-based cites will be the "crowning achievement" in the initial transition to Lua (for both the speed impact as well as supporting over 430 parameter options). However, there is always the potential for complaints, not just for overlooked discrepancies, but also for people asking why the miraculous transition did not happen sooner. The old adage warns, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil", even if 1.6 million wheels must wait before being allowed to move faster. Hence, it is important to keep the overall transition effort moving forward. After {cite_web} has been transitioned to Lua, then {Citation/core} will be delinked from nearly 1 million pages, and any further upgrades can reformat those million pages 2x-3x times faster with Lua. Most likely, with the upcoming 2x-faster Scribunto upgrade, then Lua cites will be considered as speeding most major articles to edit-preview beyond 3x faster. At this point, any new features introduced into the wp:CS1 cites can be deployed, and reformatted, into those 1.8 million pages as 3x faster than ever before. Only the minor {cite_*} forks, among 23 variations, will continue to use {Citation/core}, and their slow reformatting (14/second) will become negligible. Anyway, I am hoping more editors will come to help to discuss concerns, and offer better solutions, but we do not want to "stop the presses" to focus on only the "squeaky wheels" among the rest of 1.8 million, waiting to move faster and cleaner. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- NO. DON'T force unfinished software on users. this isn't a playground or test bed for your favorite software projects. clean out the bugs before you present software as production-ready. this nonsense about "superstitions" (?) has to stop. this is insulting to editors who try to workaround your fumbles and to readers who get inconsistent presentation. you can either do it right or you can't. i'm sure editors won't appreciate spending valuable time to beta-test your code. typical is the nonsense about "changing" the script "continually". are you suggesting that bugs be left in the software just so you can move on to something else? or the nonsense about going back to the old system as a "patch" on an as-needed basis? where did you get these ideas about software development? this is getting ridiculous. but i can see that you are another one who thinks that buggy software is better if it presents the bugs faster. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- Lua version is greatly improved and tested, not buggy playground: There have been extensive tests of the Lua-based cites, for over 6 months, which also show the numerous improvements compared to the prior markup-based cites. The word "superstitious" refers to the idea that the Lua-based cites are worse, rather than many times better than the markup cites. Many problems with the prior cite templates have been fixed with the Lua version, such as removing double-dots ".." after "Inc.." or author initials. There are almost 5,000 articles which incorrectly omit the dots (or commas) between parameters, and the Lua version will fix those articles as well. Over 25,000 articles will be fixed to show "p." (rather than "pp.") for a singular page number. Beyond all those improvements, the COinS metadata will be restored, in 1.8 million pages, for DASHbot to automatically insert the archive URL where a dead-link URL has been used. The fact that the Lua-based cites run almost 9x faster than the markup-based cites, from last year, was not even mentioned in the above paragraph, but that is another improvement, where users will be able to insert and preview new citations 9x times faster than before. So the Lua-based cites will help our editors improve the appearance and addition of citation footnotes. I am sorry that you imagined the Lua version was "buggy software" and I hope I have explained how the opposite is true. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- and on what do you base your statement that lua "is many times better"? do you have any real-world, objective, properly benchmarked PROOF? because if not, this is just your particular "superstition". but this is not the point, lua is a given. i'm just illustrating how fantastic your "logic" is.
- you misrepresent behavioral (human) errors, like the mistaken use of "Inc.", as coding errors of the markup version. the first line of defence against behavioral errors is proper, unambiguous documentation written in simple, non-technical language, that anticipates such problems.
- similarly for the use of "pages". but maybe you think that documentation is not part of a software project. now it seems that lua can better handle the string manipulations involved, but this should still be a last-ditch solution.
- you misrepresent the re-entry of COInS functionality, as if it was an invention of the lua system or as if its previous implementation was breaking something. the first is clearly not the case, the second was never proven.
- as for your assertion that the referred-to implementation was not buggy, let's just say that you are being funny. but only in order to avoid much stronger language.
- afaic all these statements of yours raise more unflattering questions regarding the implementation of this important project. thankfully others involved seem to have a better grasp of things and are more responsive and reality-based. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 01:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
- The Lua templates are working quite well. We have done a lot of regression testing, but with our small team some of the lesser used parameters and a lot of odd uses were missed. As we deploy the Lua templates, these issues are being reported and are quickly resolved. We welcome the reports of any specific problems. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- you shouldn't welcome reports of problems. production code shouldn't have any. imo, you clearly had not done enough testing. if you insist on calling editors' prerogative (in their efforts to make content understandable) "odd uses" then imo you should not be involved in software that is there to assist humans. it is looking at it from the wrong perspective. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 01:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
- Aiming for Zarro boogs, are we?
- you shouldn't welcome reports of problems. production code shouldn't have any. imo, you clearly had not done enough testing. if you insist on calling editors' prerogative (in their efforts to make content understandable) "odd uses" then imo you should not be involved in software that is there to assist humans. it is looking at it from the wrong perspective. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 01:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Completed -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Transition for Cite Web
I think we are about ready for the big one. I would like to transition {{cite web}}, used on 1.3 million pages, later today. The current test cases page for cite web is Module talk:Citation/CS1/test/web. After this one, the vast majority of citations on Wikipedia will be using Lua. Dragons flight (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- {{cite web}} has now been deployed using Lua. Dragons flight (talk) 00:53, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Deployment of {cite_web} for mega-scale improvements: Thank you for transitioning Template:Cite_web to Lua, which is currently fixing over 4,900 articles which had omitted the dot "." separator between thousands of parameters, and correcting the singular page "pp.n" to show "p." in over 25,000 articles, plus fixing "inc.." etc. I have verified the instant 6x-faster cite speed improvement, when editing pop-culture articles which edit-preview, now, within 7 seconds, as 2x-3x faster. This focus on mega-scale improvements is needed to avoid tangent delays to debate rare parameters used in less than a 1-in-10,000 fraction of all cites. The articles currently re-edited, by the "101,000" daily editors, will reduce the reformat backlog of the 1.3 million {cite_web} pages, among the 1.8 million {cite_*} pages. Overall reformatting has been somewhat slow, where {Citation/core} has not been further delinked much yet in the past 15 hours, despite many thousands of pages using only {cite_web}. The category for lone accessdate (no URL) has increased by over 12% to exceed 45,590 pages. Also, perhaps 10% of articles might not delink for over 4 days, when the reformatting is purposely delayed to balance the server's wp:Job_queue. However, we should focus on transitioning Template:Citation (style wp:CS2), as the next mega-scale effort, to revise a million cite parameters as used in "95,261" pages, many without {cite_*} due to {citation} showing the comma separator, as exclusive citation style wp:CS2, but still showing typos as singular page "pp.n" and running 6x slower w/o Lua. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Completed -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Cite web, url, and archiveurl
It has come to my attention that for {{cite web}}, specifying archiveurl= without a url= is historically allowed:
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)
|
While for all other citation template it appears to be an error:
| Wikitext | {{cite journal
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help)
|
So, is this behavior we need to replicate, and if so, why does it work this way? Dragons flight (talk) 03:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- That uses the same markup as the other templates, and the error check is in core. That is a bug in the old version, but I don't see the problem right off. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- When 'url' is fed into 'IncludedWorkURL' then {{citation/core}} is not throwing the error as intended. This affects other templates such as {{cite conference}}. This is a bug in core, but I will have to dig into it later to see what is going on. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:25, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
deadurl = no
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Wikitext | {{cite journal
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
deadurl = yes
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Wikitext | {{cite journal
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
I've updated all of these cases to give behavior consistent with the preexisting templates. However, I'm not really sure that setting up the error handling in this way makes sense. Dragons flight (talk) 05:02, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- The old core checking has a bug as noted above. All templates should use consistent checking. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- If a URL is dead, but an archive has already been provided, I'm not actually sure why it is ever an error to omit the original URL. All of the widely used archive services record the original URL, so it would still be available that way, but having a link there when we are confident that it won't work seems rather pointless. Dragons flight (talk) 18:38, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict):It is better I think to be consistent across all of the CS1 cites. Treating
{{cite web}}differently from all of the others just makes for ugly code and editors who will complain about this cite format being different from that format. Make{{cite web}}the same as all of the others.
- Beware triggering new error messages in thousands of articles: At this point, each new error message should be considered as a "retroactive law" to upset prior use of parameters. I think most readers would consider a page "ugly" which contains new error messages formerly not there before the Lua cites. Instead, a hidden maintenance category can be used to determine the extent of the supposed error conditions. For the use of "archiveurl=" without "url=" there has been the concern of promoting one URL, versus the other URL, in nations where some web-archive sites are considered to be a clear copy-vio of the original webpage, and linking the archive without the original URL could be considered favoritism towards the "copyvio" website. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Trans title with no title
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Doe, John (1965). Neverland: Foreign Books. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |notracking= ignored (|no-tracking= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | Doe, John (1965). Neverland: Foreign Books. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |notracking= ignored (|no-tracking= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
|
Noting a bug. Dragons flight (talk)
- Agree- the old behavior is a bug. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, I would say that both sides are a bug. We shouldn't be ignoring translated titles when given without a title as that causes information to vanish from preexisting citations. However, it also isn't good to have only translated titles specified without specifying the original title. My intention is to fix the display format to include the translated title and add a tracking category for translations lacking original text. Dragons flight (talk) 15:42, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I've added the translated title back into the display, but tagged it with Category:Pages with citations using translated terms without the original when there is a translation but no original. Dragons flight (talk) 16:24, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- That seems better, to keep what they show. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Transition Phase-7: Template:Citation
The next major cite is Template:Citation, used repeatedly in over 95,000 pages. Although technically called "wp:CS2" I created the Template:Citation/lua to use CS1's Module:Citation/CS1 as thinking it functions as {Citation/core} for both CS1/CS2 styles, so it could be claimed that CS2 is a variation under CS1, and hence covered by the same Lua module. I just wanted to avoid Vancouver style cites, already handled quickly by Template:Vcite. Anyway, the first minor problems are:
- The {cite compare} needs to handle "mode=citation".
- Parameter "accessdate=" is hidden when "doi=" but no "url=" parameter.
The general format is:
The results of {cite_compare} show:
| Wikitext | {{citation
|
|---|---|
| Live | Doe, John (29 March 2013), Try {citation}, vol. II (2nd ed.), London: Acme, doi:10.555 {{citation}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check |doi= value (help)
|
| Sandbox | Doe, John (29 March 2013), Try {citation}, vol. II (2nd ed.), London: Acme, doi:10.555 {{citation}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check |doi= value (help)
|
These are the first concerns. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- I added some redirects to allow {{cite compare}} to work as expected. Dragons flight (talk) 17:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Vancouver is not well used. The editor who was the main proponent is inactive and I suspect it will not grow past the current articles. Bottom line: don't worry about updating it. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Creating /test/citation testcases: Since {citation} looks like {cite_book} with commas, I have created Module_talk:Citation/CS1/test/citation from the /test/book page, but adding "coauthors=" data. Again, if anyone asks "Why named /CS1?" then reply that CS2 is a citation sub-style of CS1, from the days when they were both based on {Citation/core}. -Wikid77 00:39, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
Citation and page / pages
ditto All of the new CS1 templates are set to the reverse (page= overrides pages=). Is it acceptable to do the same with {{citation}}? Dragons flight (talk) 17:27, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- It's a mistake to have both set (and articles that make that mistake should be tossed into a maintenance category). My guess is that most instances of this happen with a book where pages= is (incorrectly) the total number of pages of the book, and page= is the actual citation, so for this case having page= take priority is correct. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:37, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ditto. And the old CS1 templates have the order of hierarchy of 'page', 'pages', 'at'. -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
The Mysterious Place
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Jones, John (1956). Written at Seattle, Washington. My Book. New York: Books 'R' US. |
| Sandbox | Jones, John (1956). Written at Seattle, Washington. My Book. New York: Books 'R' US. |
| Specify both place= and publication-place= in cite book | |
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Jones, John (1956). My Book. Seattle, Washington: Books 'R' US. |
| Sandbox | Jones, John (1956). My Book. Seattle, Washington: Books 'R' US. |
| Specify only place= in cite book | |
| Wikitext | {{citation
|
|---|---|
| Live | Jones, John (1956), written at Seattle, Washington, My Book, New York: Books 'R' US |
| Sandbox | Jones, John (1956), written at Seattle, Washington, My Book, New York: Books 'R' US |
| Specify both place= and publication-place= in citation | |
| Wikitext | {{citation
|
|---|---|
| Live | Jones, John (1956), My Book, Seattle, Washington: Books 'R' US |
| Sandbox | Jones, John (1956), My Book, Seattle, Washington: Books 'R' US |
| Specify only place= in citation | |
So {{citation}} has an extra field place= that means the same as publication-place= if publication-place= is not specified, but has a different meaning if both are specified. To make things worse, the old templates also allow both parameters, but historically place= overrides publication-place= while we are presently doing the reverse.
Given this situation, I'm tempted to make all of the templates match the behavior of these parameters in {{citation}}. Any thoughts / comments? Dragons flight (talk) 17:57, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- Give in to the temptation. -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:27, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- agreed that "place"/"publication-place" should follow the "date"/"publication-date" convention. but reserve the use of colons for "publication-place" only. otherwise it (a) may cause people to confuse author location with publisher location (b) may undermine confidence in the citation system, especially if nit-pickers fail to verify the presumed publisher location detail. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Migration for Citation template
I have gone ahead and migrated {{citation}} to use Lua. Test cases can be seen as Module talk:Citation/CS1/test/citation. This is the last of the major citation templates (with 95k page uses). Dragons flight (talk) 23:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
span class="reference-accessdate" exposed
span class="reference-accessdate" is exposed if 'publisher' is linked and ends with a period:
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |sandbox= ignored (help)
|
| Sandbox | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |sandbox= ignored (help)
|
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. |
| Sandbox | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. |
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. |
| Sandbox | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. |
-- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Need to move dot '.' before span-tag: I think the easiest fix would be to move the 'sepc' variable to lead the access-date to avoid any similar chopped span tags "span xx>". The Lua function safejoin() looks past the span-tag in "<span...>. Retrieved" and treated the dot '.' as being adjacent to the prior end-dot data, to chop the lead '<' off the span-tag. I have triggered "sandbox=yes" in the first example above, to check the fix. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Moving the dot is not really an acceptable option. The dot needs to be included in the span in order for "reference-accessdate" to properly perform the purpose described under "accessdate" at {{cite web}}. Otherwise, everyone who follows the directions given at that page would start seeing double dots all the time. I've fixed the code to actually remove the dot from inside the span under these circumstances. Dragons flight (talk) 18:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Fixed -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 20:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Multi-phase transition to Lua cites
Bumping thread for 30 days. Allen3 talk 10:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
With all the corrections people have already submitted, some Lua cites are very close to being released. I suggest a multi-phase transition in different weeks for the 23 cite templates, to focus on 5 major cite templates (for web, book, news, journal & {citation} ) with one minor cite template, {cite_encyclopedia}, to start as a small pre-release:
- test general parameters as "text-book" cases
- test several example articles (India, United States, Canada, Germany, Japan, etc.)
- transition Template:Cite_encyclopedia to Lua, as a small start (only 62,000 articles)
- transition Template:Citation to Lua (wide use, but only 93,000 pages)
- transition Template:Cite_news to Lua (mostly pop-culture, 385,000 articles)
- transition Template:Cite_journal to Lua (complex science/document parameters, 275,000 pages)
- transition Template:Cite_web to Lua (majority of cites, 1.3 million pages)
- transition Template:Cite_book to Lua (2nd largest, 460,000 pages)
- transition Template:Cite_video to Lua (minor, in 9,000 pages)
- transition other cite templates to use Lua
At any point, the transition phases can be reverted, or delayed, to handle whatever issues are found. The multi-phase plan is a balance between conservative delays and wide-scale impact. The most-used template, {cite_web} in 1.3 million pages, will be released in the middle phases, after tests which have smaller impacts. Meanwhile, because {cite_news} is used mostly for pop-culture articles, the parameters are often simple, while many users will be editing articles which use {cite_news} and report any unusual cite formats. Also, because {cite_news} is a major cite template, it will be a good "stress test" to having Lua used in several hundred thousand articles (385,000), before transitioning {cite_web} as used in 1.3 million pages. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:37, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- Looks like a good list FYI: {{cite video}} is now {{cite AV media}}, and supports all the features of {{cite sign}}. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:58, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- Yes a good list, it might be an idea to try an inform the wider community of whats happening at the village pump or signpost.--Salix (talk): 17:17, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- Transition plan announced at PUMPTECH: I have worded an announcement to emphasize the benefits of using Lua-based CS1 cites, even if not "perfect" yet:
- The Lua-cite advantages will outweigh the risks of slight format differences, which can be fixed later. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:31, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- All seems to be progressing steadily, some very good work being done here. One question, as each problem is found and corrected, are we updating a page of testcases to show that the Lua output is equivalent (or better where agreed) than the current citation core? I would be interested to add a selection of sample citations to it. Thanks Rjwilmsi 22:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- Preparing long-term testcases: We did not have a naming structure to compare side-by-side testcases, but creating "/old" versions of each cite template will allow long-term comparisons. These testcases could quickly become a nightmare, as a "cottage industry" of thousands of parameter combinations, so I have waited until now. See more below: #CS1 comparison testcases. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- Release delayed 3 weeks until 17 March 2013: Due to several trivial problems, the release of {cite_encyclopedia/lua} was delayed for over 3 weeks. Perhaps most debilitating, the excessive limitations with the Lua timeout, as a mere 10 seconds, compared to 60-second allowance for markup-based parameters, made Lua unusable for cite templates in major articles, due to the risk of entire cites stored as "Script error" when the file servers were extremely slow. In rare cases, some Lua functions can slow to over 65% slower, where a 7-second Lua run could stretch beyond 11 seconds. To patch the severe Lua time limitation (with a "band-aid"), the Lua timing was changed to omit time elapsed when parsing the parameter templates, to enable formatting of hundreds of citations; however, the 10-second timeout still limits Lua to only partial analysis of large article pages. There was also a complete inability to use Lua templates when generating PDF output. Other trivial problems involved the shifted position of multiple parameters, again providing evidence for the need to just hand-write citation footnotes, where the Lua-based cites have become yet the next level of "much ado about nothing" in excessive formatting of footnotes. However, in related tests, the 200-variable-name limit in Lua functions was confirmed, so there is another limit to rambling additions of parameter names, where they cannot be given separate variable names inside a single Lua function, unless limited to within 200 possible names. -Wikid77 (talk) 04:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Release of {cite_journal} as Lua on 23 March 2013: After numerous discussions about the position of the "editor=" parameter, which was left as "In Editor" for now, adjusting some minor options, and creation of the related testcases page, {cite_journal} was transitioned to use Lua on 23 March 2013 at 1am. After several hours, about 114,000 more articles were auto-delinked from the markup-based helper Template:Citation/core. A specific article, "Lyme disease" was timed to edit-preview within 9 seconds (formerly 22+ seconds) using 189 {cite_journal} and 6 {cite_news}, with similar reformat times for other major medical articles. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
HTML classes
Now that Lua has deployed, we should add (as well as, or instead of, COinS) HTML classes to our citation templates, to describe the various parameters. For example, instead of emitting, say,
Much ado about Nothing
we could emit:
<span class="title">Much ado about Nothing</span>
The visual rendering would not change.
By agreeing (and sharing with the wider web community) a standard set of such class names, others can write tools to parse our citations, and allow them to be inserted into other documents or web services (or, indeed, into other Wikipedia articles). The makers of Zotero, for example, have already expressed an interest in parsing citations that use such classes.
As some of you may have realised, what I am talking about, a standard, shared, set of class names, is a microformat. I have written more about how we could use a citation microformat, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Microformats#Proposal: citation microformat. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
- Get a specification together. Once this module is debugged and implemented, then we can look at adding this feature. Do we want to include HTML5 elements as well? --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:55, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I've started a brainstorming page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Microformats/citation, with a draft proposal for discussion and an example. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- So, can we now apply these classes? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:37, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I've started a brainstorming page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Microformats/citation, with a draft proposal for discussion and an example. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- I could see supporting the use of an existing third party specification (COinS is already an example of this), but I don't really like the idea of inventing such a specification ourselves. Dragons flight (talk) 17:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Why not? (In fact the draft is based on work done by the microformat community, which has moved on since my initial suggestion).Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:49, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Example
It would be helpful if you could map out an example or two of what you propose to add.
For example, given a citation like:
- {{ cite book | isbn=978-1-4020-4520-2 | last1=Luhmann|first1= J. G.|last2=Russell|first2=C. T. | editor1-fisrt=J. H.|editor1-last=Shirley|editor2-first=R. W.|editor2-last=Fainbridge | publisher=Chapman and Hall | location=New York | year=1997 | url=http://www-spc.igpp.ucla.edu/personnel/russell/papers/venus_mag/ | work=Encyclopedia of Planetary Sciences | title=Venus: Magnetic Field and Magnetosphere | accessdate=2009-06-28 }}
- Luhmann, J. G.; Russell, C. T. (1997). Shirley, J. H.; Fainbridge, R. W. (eds.). Venus: Magnetic Field and Magnetosphere. New York: Chapman and Hall. ISBN 978-1-4020-4520-2. Retrieved 2009-06-28.
{{cite book}}:|work=ignored (help)
Which parameters do you want to add classes to, how do you propose to deal with multiple authors/editors, how do you want to distinguish article titles from main work titles, etc.? Dragons flight (talk) 02:13, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm open to debate, but the HTML from your example is (whitespace added; irrelevant attributes omitted, for clarity):
<code> <span class="citation book"> Luhmann, J. G.; Russell, C. T. (1997). <a class="external text vt-p" href="http:.../">"Venus: Magnetic Field and Magnetosphere"</a>. In Shirley, J. H.; Fainbridge, R. W. <i>Encyclopedia of Planetary Sciences</i> (New York: Chapman and Hall). <a href="..." title="..." class="vt-p">ISBN</a> <a href="..." title="..." class="vt-p">978-1-4020-4520-2</a> <span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved 2009-06-28</span>.</span> </code>
(incidentally, I don't think the first full stop should be inside the "reference-accessdate" span). I would make that:
<code> <span class="citation book h-cite"> <span class="p-author">Luhmann, J. G.</span>; <span class="p-author">Russell, C. T.</span> (<span class="dt-published">1997</span>). <a class="external text vt-p u-url p-name" href="http:.../">"Venus: Magnetic Field and Magnetosphere"</a>. In <span class="p-editor">Shirley, J. H.</span>; <span class="p-editor">Fainbridge, R. W.</span> <i class="p-publication">Encyclopedia of Planetary Sciences</i> (New York: <span class="p-publisher">Chapman and Hall</span>). <a href="..." title="..." class="vt-p">ISBN</a> <a href="..." title="..." class="vt-p u-uid">978-1-4020-4520-2</a> <span class="reference-accessdate">. Retrieved <span class="dt-accessed">2009-06-28</span></span>.</span> </code>
by adding classes "h-cite", "u-url", "u-uid", "p-author" (twice), "p-editor" (twice), "dt-published", "p-publication", "p-name", "p-publisher" and "dt-accessed". What do others think? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:34, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- We don't have the ability to add classes to links generated via [[...]] or [...], so that part of your proposed markup doesn't work. Those bits would have to be in separate spans (or similar), probably outside of the <a>. Dragons flight (talk) 01:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
- Doh! Of course - I have an open ticket for that. Otherwise, what do you think? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- Did you see this? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Reverted move
Since this is a new feature, I am moving it to the requests page. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:48, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Was there any discussion and consensus reached, before you decided to create a sub-page with few watchers and little traffic? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:45, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Move it back if you want. -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:56, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- You didn't answer my question; but I've moved it back anyway. BTW, Module_talk:Citation/CS1/Feature_requests has been viewed just 21 times since it was created. It has fewer than 30 watchers. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- Move it back if you want. -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:56, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
Cite comparison tool
I have created Module:CiteConversionTest. It is a simple that allows one to see select an article, pull out its citations, and see the both and after conversion results side-by-side.
Try (in your personal sandbox):
{{#invoke:CiteConversionTest | test | France }}
To avoid time outs it will only show the first 90 citations, but even so, one can easily test a large number of citations very quickly. Dragons flight (talk) 15:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Missing options, strange dots
| Wikitext | {{cite news
|
|---|---|
| Live | . BurgerBusiness. 2012-01-25 http://www.burgerbusiness.com/?p=9168. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
|
| Sandbox | . BurgerBusiness. 2012-01-25 http://www.burgerbusiness.com/?p=9168. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
|
Some dots to do something about. Or, you know, require that the title is not blank. Dragons flight (talk) 04:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Citation class change
- I pulled this query into it's own section. Dragons flight (talk) 17:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Is there any reason that the HTML class has changed from Journal to journal? Some browsers are case-sensitive on class identifiers. I noticed a few days ago that {{cite encyclopedia}}, which used to generate HTML with class="book" now generates HTML with class="encyclopaedia" Will all the CS1 templates change their class names as they are converted? --Redrose64 (talk) 16:22, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
- Apparently CSS class names are case sensitive according to the standard (which surprises me). In the present Lua, the class names are taken from the citation mode, so cite book gives class=book, cite encyclopedia give class=encyclopedia, etc. I assume that was done for the sake of simplicity and consistency, though it was there before I got here. So, the real question is: Do we want to preserve the preexisting class behavior, or do we want to make them systematic in this way (or some other way)? Personally I'm not sure which behavior should be preferred, nor do I know how widely used these class names are. Dragons flight (talk) 17:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
{{cite encyclopedia}}actually givesclass=encyclopaedia(note the British spelling). --Redrose64 (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2013 (UTC)- I have never been convinced that the HTML class in the cite templates has any purpose. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:17, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
- The User:DASHBot has been using the COinS metadata, to add (hundreds) "archiveurl=" into {cite_*} which have deadlink URLs. It does not look at the visible span-tag class="citation book" (now class="citation encyclopaedia") but inside the COinS tags which have <span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004...">. I think DASHBot will continue to run the same, regardless of the citation "class=" name. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:18, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Let's get {cite_news} released soon, and avoid overthinking of options, at this point. See below: "#Avoid analysis paralysis". -Wikid77 (talk) 17:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Automated regression testing
I set up Module talk:Citation/CS1/testcases to automatically compare {{cite encyclopedia}} and {{cite news}} values generated from both the live module and its sandbox. As people make improvements to the sandbox, please check the testcases page to make sure nothing is breaking. We should extend this as we go. Dragons flight (talk) 23:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Error trapping and checks
I've made several updates to mimic the current error checking on citation templates as well as extend a few additional checks. The values being examined, and the actions taken, are described at Module talk:Citation/CS1/test/errors. Dragons flight (talk) 23:35, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
- I've recently spent way too much time fixing citations listed at Category:Articles with incorrect citation syntax. Right now that category has seven subcategories and collects mostly
{{cite web}}missing title errors, although I have seen the|archivedate=and|archiveurl=errors there as well
- The
{{cite web}}missing title error, it seems to me, is pretty much the same error as those found in Category:Pages with citations lacking titles and Category:Pages with citations having bare URLs except that in the latter two cases there aren't any error messages to help editors find the offending citation. So, I'd like to see some changes arise from this:
- Annotate every trapped error so that editors can see the malformed citation in the rendered page
- Change the
{{cite web}}error category to Category:Pages with citations lacking titles (Category:Articles with incorrect citation syntax becomes a holder of subcategories but doesn't list any individual articles) - Change CS1 error handling to recognize that citations with bare urls are the same as citations lacking titles and assign these errors to the single category Category:Pages with citations lacking titles
- I think that some of the category names are awkwardly worded and should be renamed:
- I guess I don't see much value in hiding error messages in the HTML because it's unclear how that helps editors find and fix those errors. After all, you've trapped, categorized, created and then hidden an error message, isn't it relatively easy to display the error message as you've done in other cases?
- Adding:
.citation-comment {
display: inline !important;
color: red;
}
- to your personal CSS page, will cause the hidden comments to be visible as red text when you read the page. I haven't really done anything to promote that feature, but it can be used for cleanup while we discuss whether to make the error messages fully visible. You can learn more about such features at Wikipedia:Customisation.
- As far as naming, I'm happy to use whatever names people agree on. I've pretty much just been making them up as I go.
- Regarding bare URL and lacking titles, these aren't actually the same error, though they often occur together. For example:
- is an example of a citation lacking a title that doesn't have a bare URL. However, it is true that most (all?) of the occurrences of a bare URL happen due to the lack of a title, so they probably could be merged on that basis, if that is what people prefer. Dragons flight (talk) 19:45, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for that bit of css - it makes a world of difference, so much so that I can't imagine why we wouldn't want every editor to be able to see the errors. I think that displayed error messages work. When I came to this topic (I'd just discovered Category:Articles with incorrect citation syntax) there were 400ish pages listed there. By comparison, as I write this, accessdate without url: 40,000+ pages, citations with bare urls: 11,000+ pages, citations lacking titles: 8,700+ pages, conflicting page specifications: 5,000+ pages, and format without url is currently at 2,700+ pages. Those numbers alone seem to indicate that when editors are alerted to malformed citations, they fix them.
- People won't agree on an alternate name unless an alternate name is offered. So, I've offered names that I think are meaningful and not too awkward.
- In your bare URL and lacking title example (which doesn't actually have a bare url), it seems to me that a citation without a title is meaningless (especially since it refers to page 45; page 45 of what?) We have
{{harvnb}}and{{sfn}}to do that kind of shortened citation. So I think that your example should be flagged as a citation lacking a title as{{cite news}}does. And when we do add a bare url:
- In your bare URL and lacking title example (which doesn't actually have a bare url), it seems to me that a citation without a title is meaningless (especially since it refers to page 45; page 45 of what?) We have
- Doe, John (1956). London. p. 45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module_talk:Citation/CS1#Error_trapping_and_checks.
{{cite news}}: Missing or empty|title=(help)
- Doe, John (1956). London. p. 45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module_talk:Citation/CS1#Error_trapping_and_checks.
{{cite news}}emits Bare URL needs a title.Citation has no title which seems a bit redundant, right? If there is a distinction here, I'm not seeing it.
- I do want to say that you and Editor Gadget850 are doing good work here that seems to me much under appreciated.
Making all parameters case insensitive
There are currently about 25 examples where we check multiple case representations of arguments, i.e. doi= and DOI=, Author= and author=.
Would there be any downside to making all the parameters case insensitive? It can be done easily at the point we locally copy the argument table, and I expect the net effect is pretty performance neutral (a few calls to string.lower offset by removing various checks for alternate capitalization), so basically I'm asking is there any reason it would be bad if editors had the option of using whatever parameter capitalization they wanted? I seems like allowing title=, Title=, and TITLE=, etc. to function the same is probably okay (and might help newbies) even if that's not how templates generally work. It would certainly help clean up some of the code by allowing us remove the various capitalization checks. Dragons flight (talk) 02:57, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- This seems reasonable to me. BibTeX is not case sensitive in its corresponding parameter names, and that doesn't seem to cause any problems. Some external software might need to be updated (e.g. I have code I use to convert back and forth between Wikipedia citations and BibTeX that is currently case-sensitive on the Wikipedia side) but the update would be very easy. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:14, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- Avoid vast divergence from 23 {cite_*} forks and markup templates: We need to beware any changes which radically differ from the 23 older {cite_*} forks. For example, allowing capital-letter "Title=xx" in {cite_journal} would encourage use of a parameter spelling which would be insidiously ignored in the older fork templates, to cause confusion in new users unaware of the transition status of the various {cite_*} fork templates. Also, we would complicate the comparisons of parameters between the Lua versions and the old markup-based templates which would ignore many uppercase parameter names. Beyond those problems, there would be endless confusion with alternate citation templates, such as Template:Vcite or any other templates which currently expect lowercase "title=" and ignore the capital "Title=" form. Let's just try to focus on getting the other major cite templates, {cite_journal} and {cite_web} and {cite_book}, transitioned to use Lua, and discuss numerous tangent issues next month. Too much speculation about other features leads to the paralysis of analysis which causes a 9-day transition to Lua-based cites to drag into 6 weeks/months of numerous delays. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:29, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- Changing the capitalisation rules would widely affect bots. We'd diverge further from other cite templates and those related to them. As Wikid77 says mid-transition is not a good point. I think overall it would lead to more problems. Rjwilmsi 09:08, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- The documentation explicitly states to use lower case, and the upper case aliases and the one misspelling alias have never been documented. The defacto site standard for parameters is lower case. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:47, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- Changing the capitalisation rules would widely affect bots. We'd diverge further from other cite templates and those related to them. As Wikid77 says mid-transition is not a good point. I think overall it would lead to more problems. Rjwilmsi 09:08, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, we can table this, if people think it will be too much of a problem. For the record, I did add a check for URL=, which seems to be the most frequent variant in actual use among cases we haven't been checking (probably because it is an acronym and we allow most other acronyms to be all uppercase). Dragons flight (talk) 15:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Pages with DOIs inactive since
This page is in this category. Shouldnt it just be for main space? Christian75 (talk) 19:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- Right. {{Citation/identifier}} does a namespace check and uses the category only for articles. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:31, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, but why only main space? References can also appear occasionally on file descriptions, Wikipedia pages, and other places. It's not obvious why only using the category for main space is the right idea. If the only problem one is worried about is documentation pages and ones like this one where the error is being displayed intentionally, then those can be removed from the category by adding
nocat=trueto the citation that generates the error. Dragons flight (talk) 20:00, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, but why only main space? References can also appear occasionally on file descriptions, Wikipedia pages, and other places. It's not obvious why only using the category for main space is the right idea. If the only problem one is worried about is documentation pages and ones like this one where the error is being displayed intentionally, then those can be removed from the category by adding
- PS. I managed to block the track cats in enough places to disable that category for this page. Dragons flight (talk) 20:22, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- Point. {{Broken ref}} controls the cite error messages and categorizes only main (article), template, category, help and file pages. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 20:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Automated archiving
I've just set up automated archiving of this talk page, with a delay of seven days. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:09, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
URL in page number
When a page number is linked, a hyphen is converted to an ndash. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Linking problem to Google books
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Sedgwick, John (2000). Popular Filmgoing In 1930s Britain: A Choice of Pleasures. University of Exeter Press. pp. 146–148. ISBN 9780859896603. |
| Sandbox | Sedgwick, John (2000). Popular Filmgoing In 1930s Britain: A Choice of Pleasures. University of Exeter Press. pp. 146–148. ISBN 9780859896603. |
- However, putting a URL in the page number is going to blow up the COinS metadata. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that such links are a mess for COinS and should be active discouraged for that reason. At some point we should investigate whether parameter validation is reasonable / performance affordable, but that's not something I have any interest in getting into now. In the mean time it might be worth making hyphen to dash more selective about what it converts. Dragons flight (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- COinS functionality is not policy, but WP:V is. exactly linking to the source preserves verifiability and source-text integrity, that is why page-linking is actively encouraged in the related pages. wikipedia policy should be the overarching standard to be followed, then work to make software compatible with policy. you are doing it the other way around. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 14:13, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that such links are a mess for COinS and should be active discouraged for that reason. At some point we should investigate whether parameter validation is reasonable / performance affordable, but that's not something I have any interest in getting into now. In the mean time it might be worth making hyphen to dash more selective about what it converts. Dragons flight (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- There are many bizarre things people can put in parameters: For now, we need to focus on transition to the Lua versions, and then next month, we can discuss adding numerous tests to reject improper data during parameter validation. For example, a user might put an external link in the parameter "last=http://www.google.com" (rather than "last=Google.com") and then the anchor text of a ref-id would contain the improper URL address after the "CITEREF" prefix. Perhaps we should not auto-replace a page-number hyphen with dash. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:18, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- Looks like people are not aware that at our content guideline we tell editors to link the page parameter if they like see - WP:BOOKLINKS.Moxy (talk) 19:03, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- Fix for common URL or wikilink in page number: Granted that is common to put a URL address in parameter "page=" (or "at="), such as linking one page in Google Books, then we could change the Lua formatted COinS metadata to not contain a URL or wikilink, as follows:
OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = Page or Pages or At
if OCinSdata["rft.pages"]:sub(1,1) == '[' then
OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = link
end
- The replacement of the linked page data by "link" will allow the COinS data to be used, now, and perhaps a better replacement, for the linked page number, could be determined next month. Currently, the COinS data stores a URL in page number as the following:
- pages=[http://books.google.com/books?id=YsUfc8Ijb-wC&pg=PA146 146]–148
- &rft.pages=%5Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DYsUfc8Ijb-wC%26pg%3DPA146+146%5D%E2%80%93148
- So that is the status so far. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Help talk:Citation Style 1
Would it make sense to merge Help talk:Citation Style 1 with this page? (I'll ask there also). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
- I have thought on that. Let's not merge now, as this page is very busy. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:54, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
ORCID
Please see Help talk:Citation Style 1#ORCID, where some technical help is needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:35, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
cite tag
lastauthoramp parameter (again)
The presence of a value for |coauthors= should suppress the "&" produced by |lastauthoramp=yes to avoid the following:
- {{cite book |last=Last1 |last2=Last2 |last3=Last3 |last4=Last4 |last5=Last5 |last6=Last6 |last7=Last7 |last8=Last8 |coauthors=Last9; Last 10 & Last11 |year=2000 |contribution=Chapter | editor-last=EdLast1 |editor2-last=EdLast2 | title=Title |lastauthoramp=yes }} → Last1; Last2; Last3; Last4; Last5; Last6; Last7; Last8 (2000). "Chapter". In EdLast1; EdLast2 (eds.). Title.
{{cite book}}: Unknown parameter|coauthors=ignored (|author=suggested) (help); Unknown parameter|lastauthoramp=ignored (|name-list-style=suggested) (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
Note that |lastauthoramp=yes is needed to put the "&" between the editors. (The same issue would arise with co-editors.) Peter coxhead (talk) 11:00, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Just to note, this has always worked this way:
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Last1; Last2; Last3; Last4; Last5; Last6; Last7; Last8 (2000). "Chapter". In EdLast1; EdLast2 (eds.). Title. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
|
| Sandbox | Last1; Last2; Last3; Last4; Last5; Last6; Last7; Last8 (2000). "Chapter". In EdLast1; EdLast2 (eds.). Title. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
|
You are using coauthors as a workaround for the limit on the number of authors and you are asking to fix a problem that shows because of this workaround. Wouldn't it be better to fix the basic issue by increasing the number of authors? --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:32, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I know that it's "always" been a bug. But other bugs relating to
|lastauthoramp=have been fixed recently, so it should now be possible to fix this one. Lua makes it practical to increase the number of conditions that can be tested for and dealt with. - Unless an indefinite number of authors is allowed, increasing the number isn't really a solution. Scientific papers seem to have more and more authors these days; 30+ isn't unusual in some areas (big physics, molecular phylogenetic studies of many taxa, etc.). Peter coxhead (talk) 12:42, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- Lua does allow for an indefinite number of authors. The two requirements are that if author N is specified then authors 1 to N-1 must also be specified, and you must also adjust displayauthors= to a higher value if you don't want the list truncated with "et al.". Subject to those restrictions, you can carry the author list to as many as you like, e.g. 45, 100, 1000. It doesn't matter (aside from the fact that it could be a pain to type), the Lua templates will handle it. Dragons flight (talk) 17:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I saw one where the list of authors was longer than the abstract. If you really want to include more than nine authors, then either stuff all the authors into the one 'authors' field or get the number of authors increased. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- The first doesn't work because it prevents the automated Harvard style reference links being created – they need some individual authors. (And yes, I know you can set such links up manually, but it's tedious and clutters up the citation). Peter coxhead (talk) 13:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I saw one where the list of authors was longer than the abstract. If you really want to include more than nine authors, then either stuff all the authors into the one 'authors' field or get the number of authors increased. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- I've fixed the code to handle the example case, but as I noted above, Coauthor is now unnecessary since Lua can handle arbitrarily many author and editor names. Dragons flight (talk) 20:00, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
I didn't realize that we now had a multiplicity of authors:
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Last1; Last2; Last3; Last4; Last5; Last6; Last7; Last8; Last9; Last 10; Last11; Last12; Last13; Last14 (2000). "Chapter". In EdLast1; EdLast2 (eds.). Title. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
|
| Sandbox | Last1; Last2; Last3; Last4; Last5; Last6; Last7; Last8; Last9; Last 10; Last11; Last12; Last13; Last14 (2000). "Chapter". In EdLast1; EdLast2 (eds.). Title. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
|
But the old templates went to 'et al.' after eight names. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 02:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Does User:Citation bot have a rule limiting the number of authors to the old 9? It reverted an attempt on my part to use an arbitrarily large number of authors. Choess (talk) 16:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks- we will have to keep an eye on that as things change. DF has reported the issue. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:09, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
HTML classes redux
Please note the outstanding issue at #HTML classes, above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:16, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Reply moved to the aforesaid section, so as not to fragment discussion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:17, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
New features
As we work though this, we are getting a few requests for new features. I would like to see us update the current templates and replicate their current function, while fixing bugs and inconsistencies.
I want to hold off on new features until we have the new templates in place and fully debugged. I started Module talk:Citation/CS1/Feature requests to track new features. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:44, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- For my part, I'm not planning to think much about new features such as these (or microformats / ORCID) until after the bulk of the transition is complete. That said, if other people want to work out the details of what is needed, then that could be helpful when we do get there. Having already converted the largest four templates, I think we've already made huge progress on the transition though. The most significant missing one is {{citation}} (95k pages), while most of what is left after that are low priority (in my opinion) specialty templates. Dragons flight (talk) 16:51, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Exactly my point. The priority should be to completing the update, so I would rather push new features to the other talk page so we don't get a lot of clutter. I am going back through archives to pick out worthwhile proposals that were never implemented. One often requested was fixing double periods, which has been implemented. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Catching user misspelling bugs (pilot error)
I think an important interim advancement will be the reporting of misspelled parameters (so-called "pilot error"), even if considered a "new feature" but also improving the handling of old parameters. These are some to consider:
- newspaper - misspelled as "newpaper" (omits "s" in "news")
- title - misspelled as "titel" (German spelling is "Titel")
- publisher - misspelled as "pubilsher" (transposed "li")
- accessdate - misspelled as "acessdate" (as one "c")
- accessdate - misspelled as "accesdate" (as one "s")
Although the misspellings are rare, I think many are discovered by users puzzling over the missing data in the results, then obsessing about spelling and finally realizing "newpaper" is a misspelling. Because the patrollers often mass-fix such one-word misspellings, it is difficult to know how many misspelled parameters were originally in use. For reporting those as "errors" we could edit the few articles which contain them, now, and fix those articles, before deploying the spell-savvy Lua version. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- The best way to handle this is to have a complete list of supported parameters and check each submitted parameter for membership on that list so that any unknown parameter can be flagged. That will require someone making such a list, as well as some special handling for the numbered parameters. I'm also concerned that wide scale parameter validation may involve too large a performance penalty, though we won't really know that until we measure it. Dragons flight (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- A whitelist would be the better way. I started Module talk:Citation/CS1/Error checking and will start populating it later. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:58, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
COinS genre
There's an entry in the changelog for October 20, 2012 stating that the default rft.genre for {{cite web}} was changed to "book". Looking at the COinS implementation guide, wouldn't "document" be a more appropriate value? Choess (talk) 19:40, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Acceptable rft.pages values: Also, there was prior discussion about changing the COinS rft.pages value to be "link" when "page=[...]" is either a wikilink or external IP link. Such as:
- OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = Page or Pages or At
- if OCinSdata["rft.pages"]:sub(1,1) == '[' then
- OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = "link"
end
- Does it matter to User:DASHBot if rft.pages contains a URL or wikilink square brackets "[[...]]" rather than mild "link" as the contents? -Wikid77 (talk) 20:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Seems like a bad idea. If you have a page range like "58–87" where the "58" is linked, say to a Google Books URL, passing on the "58–87" is much more useful metadata than just "link". Where is "link" documented as a value for rft.pages, anyway? Choess (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Extracting text from links: Okay, we can "easily" just extract the text, from either a wikilink or external link. Perhaps like this:
- OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = Page or Pages or At
- if OCinSdata["rft.pages"]:sub(1,1) == '[' then
- text = OCinSdata["rft.pages"]
- if text:sub(1,2) == "[[" then
- index = string.find(text, '|')
- if index ~= nil
- then OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = text:sub(index+1,-3)
- else OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = text:sub(3,-3)
- end
- else
- index = string.find (text, ' ')
- local index2 = string.find (text, ']')
- if index2 == nil then index2 = string.len(text)-1 end
- if index2 == string.len(text) then index2 = string.len(text)-1 end
- if index ~= nil
- then OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = text:sub(index,index2-1) .. text:sub(index2+1,-1)
- else OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = text:sub(index2+1,-1)
- end
- end
end
- Hence, extracting the text is not really easy, due to risks of people using incomplete links ("[[x]"), so perhaps just use:
OCinSdata["rft.pages"] = "link" rather than risk a fatal "Script error" due to an invalid substring of the text. Otherwise, we need to test for "[x]]" or "[[xx|XX]" and absolutely ALL fatal conditions, or that horrific "Script error" will ruin the COinS metadata. I think the extraction of link text would be the most complex part of the entire cite-parameter processing. However, if we carefully check index and index2, then it could work. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:39/00:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, "bad idea" was unduly harsh on my part. I see why we'd have to be very careful with link extraction. But since the use of "link" for this purpose isn't defined anywhere in the standard, I think we should make as little use of it as reasonably possible, because we can't expect it to be usefully parsed by downstream consumers. (Note that "journal=" should probably also have link extraction performed on it before it gets turned into COinS, as obscure journals with Wikipedia articles are often linked at least once in a given bibliography.) Choess (talk) 04:36, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Getting a delink function for external and interwiki links: Okay, to simplify the COinS metadata, we need to delink text in titles, or authors, as well as page numbers. That means removing multiple links, as any combination of either simple wikilinks (of each part), or interwiki links (such as "wikt:" to Wiktionary) or some text as external links with "http*". Although the delinking will be, relatively, very complex, it could be pre-scanned by a rapid string search for simple '[' before invoking a tedious, thorough delink() function. I have submitted a request, to see if anyone is already writing such an important complex function; see: "wp:Lua_requests#Need a delink function". Because this is such a vital feature, I think it could be written soon. For each related cite parameter, the data item could be pre-scanned by "index=string.find(text,'[')" to avoid the overhead of delinking. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, we shouldn't need to delink authors, because of the existence of the "authorlink" parameter. Agree that a generalized function of this sort would be useful for text processing. Choess (talk) 12:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- You're betting that no one has used an external link in the author field? I have seen some convoluted hacks in the last few weeks. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:40, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- No, but if we bend over backwards to try to extract useful data from it, we'll wind up having to support it in perpetuity. Dump it into a maintenance category, but don't try to save the metadata from someone doing that. Choess (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
Next?
The five most-used templates have been updated. The next ones should be:
- {{Cite press release}}, supported by RefToolbar; main differences are a default 'type' and 'docket' as an alias to 'id'
- {{Cite AV media}}, supported by ProveIt
- {{Cite conference}}, supported by ProveIt
- {{Cite episode}}, supported by ProveIt
- You are forgetting about {{citation}} (95k page uses). It isn't actually CS1, but I think we can accommodate it. It has many more uses than all of those combined. Dragons flight (talk) 18:05, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Well, {citation} was tested weeks ago, and still seems reasonable to transition soon, while we still have much work for the {cite_*} forks, but do we need to have a /sandbox2 to experiment with the forks, while leaving /sandbox for top-priority updates? -Wikid77 (talk) 18:32, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Looking at those, press release and conference are pretty trivial. The others less so. Dragons flight (talk) 20:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- {{Cite press release}} [1]
- 'title' is the included work title
- 'type' defaults to "Press release"
- 'docket' alias for 'id'
- {{Cite AV media}} [2]
- 'people' alias for 'last'
- 'medium' alias for 'type'
- 'minutes', 'time', 'timecaption' (these are used in other templates)
- 'distributor' alias for 'publisher'
- {{Cite conference}} [3]
- 'conference', 'conferenceurl'
- 'booktitle' for main title
- 'title' for included work title I would love to get these two parameter names straightened out, but with 5000 uses...
- {{Cite episode}} [4]
- 'transcript', 'transcripturl'
- 'airdate' alias to 'date'
- 'began', 'ended' (used in other templates)
- 'series', 'serieslink' for main work title
- 'title', 'episodelink' for included work title
- 'minutes', 'time', 'timecaption'
- 'season', 'series', 'seriesno'
- 'network', 'station'
Transition for Cite_press_release
I have created the 3 typical "Template:Cite_press_release/old" and "/lua" and "/new" versions, as used by {cite_compare}. For the rare parameter "docket" in the /lua template, I assigned the extra parameters as:
- |type={{{type|Press release}}}
- |id={{#if:{{{docket|}}}|{{{docket}}}|{{{id|{{{ID|}}}}}}}}
That ordering will give precedence to "docket=" as overriding "id=" in the same order as the {cite_press_release/old}. Remember: The original writers of the Lua Module:Citation/CS1 did not fully know about the "23" {cite_*} forks, nor even the basics about the typical {cite_web} format, and hence, hundreds of format changes had to be made, months ago, just to match the simple 20 common parameters of {cite_book} or similar. I was "hoping" to get lucky, but, "There is no substitute for knowledge" which the writers did not have. So now, we start rewriting in the sandbox (or /sandbox2? to not conflict with other changes?), to support {cite_press_release} and other {cite_*} forks.
Cite press_release comparison
Wikitext
{{cite press_release|accessdate=1 May 2012|author=spokesperson|date=30 March 2013|publisher=Associated Press|sandbox=yes|title=Press document|url=http://www.google.com}}
Live
spokesperson (30 March 2013). "Press document" (Press release). Associated Press. Retrieved 1 May 2012. {{cite press release}}: Unknown parameter |sandbox= ignored (help)
Sandbox
spokesperson (30 March 2013). "Press document" (Press release). Associated Press. Retrieved 1 May 2012. {{cite press release}}: Unknown parameter |sandbox= ignored (help)
With 17,000 transclusions, then {cite_press_release} is next in popularity, after {citation} with 95,200 transclusions. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:32, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- All parameters: The following are all parameters, as a sanity check, but not a substitute for a full testcases page:
Cite press release comparison
Wikitext
{{cite press release|accessdate=Accessdate|agency=Agency|archivedate=Archivedate|archiveurl=http://archiveurl.com|arxiv=ArXiv|asin-tld=ASIN-tld|asin=ASIN|at=at|author2-link=Hyperlink#author2|author2=Author2|bibcode=Bibcode|coauthor=Coauthor|conference=Conference|conferenceurl=http://confurl.com|deadurl=deadurl|department=Department|doi=10.DOI|doi_inactivedate=doi_inactivedate|edition=Edition|editorformat=EditorFmt|editors=Editors|first=Firstname|format=Format|id=Docket|isbn=Isbn|issn=Issn|issue=Issue|jfm=JFM|journal=Journal|jstor=Jstor|language=Language|last=Lastname|laydate=Laydate|laysource=Laysource|laysummary=Laysummary|lccn=LCCN|mr=MR|notracking=true|oclc=OCLC|ol=OL-22A|origyear=Origyear|osti=OSTI|others=Others|page=page|pages=pages|place=Place|pmc=PMC|pmid=PMID|postscript=Postscript|publicationdate=Publicationdate|publisher=Publisher|quote=Quote|ref=harv|rfc=RFC|sandbox=true|series=Series|ssrn=SSRN|subscription=Subscription|title=Test Cite_press_release Parameters|titlelink=Hyperlink#title|trans_title=trans_title|transcript=Transcript|transcripturl=http://transcripturl.com|url=http://url.com|via=Via|volume=Volume|year=Year|zbl=ZBL}}
Live
Lastname, Firstname; Author2 (Year) [Origyear]. "Test Cite_press_release Parameters". Department. Journal (Press release). Series (in Language). Others (Edition ed.). Place: Publisher (published Publicationdate). Agency. p. page. arXiv:ArXiv. ASIN ASIN. Bibcode:Bibcode. doi:10.DOI. ISBN Isbn. ISSN Issn. JFM JFM. JSTOR Jstor. LCCN LCCN. MR MR. OCLC OCLC. OL OL-22A. OSTI OSTI. PMC PMC. PMID PMID. RFC RFC. SSRN SSRN. Zbl ZBL. Docket. Archived from the original (Format) on Archivedate. Retrieved Accessdate – via Via. Quote
{{cite press release}}: |author2= has generic name (help); |edition= has extra text (help); |page= has extra text (help); Check |arxiv= value (help); Check |asin-tld= value (help); Check |asin= value (help); Check |bibcode= length (help); Check |doi= value (help); Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help); Check |issn= value (help); Check |jfm= value (help); Check |jstor= value (help); Check |lccn= value (help); Check |mr= value (help); Check |oclc= value (help); Check |ol= value (help); Check |osti= value (help); Check |pmc= value (help); Check |pmid= value (help); Check |rfc= value (help); Check |ssrn= value (help); Check |zbl= value (help); Check date values in: |accessdate=, |year=, |publicationdate=, and |archivedate= (help); External link in |conferenceurl= and |transcripturl=|ref=harv (help); More than one of |pages=, |at=, and |page= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthor= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |conference= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |conferenceurl= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |doi_inactivedate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |editorformat= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysource= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |notracking= ignored (|no-tracking= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |publicationdate= ignored (|publication-date= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |sandbox= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |titlelink= ignored (|title-link= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |transcript= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |transcripturl= ignored (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
Sandbox
Lastname, Firstname; Author2 (Year) [Origyear]. "Test Cite_press_release Parameters". Department. Journal (Press release). Series (in Language). Others (Edition ed.). Place: Publisher (published Publicationdate). Agency. p. page. arXiv:ArXiv. ASIN ASIN. Bibcode:Bibcode. doi:10.DOI. ISBN Isbn. ISSN Issn. JFM JFM. JSTOR Jstor. LCCN LCCN. MR MR. OCLC OCLC. OL OL-22A. OSTI OSTI. PMC PMC. PMID PMID. RFC RFC. SSRN SSRN. Zbl ZBL. Docket. Archived from the original (Format) on Archivedate. Retrieved Accessdate – via Via. Quote
{{cite press release}}: |author2= has generic name (help); |edition= has extra text (help); |page= has extra text (help); Check |arxiv= value (help); Check |asin-tld= value (help); Check |asin= value (help); Check |bibcode= length (help); Check |doi= value (help); Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help); Check |issn= value (help); Check |jfm= value (help); Check |jstor= value (help); Check |lccn= value (help); Check |mr= value (help); Check |oclc= value (help); Check |ol= value (help); Check |osti= value (help); Check |pmc= value (help); Check |pmid= value (help); Check |rfc= value (help); Check |ssrn= value (help); Check |zbl= value (help); Check date values in: |accessdate=, |year=, |publicationdate=, and |archivedate= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help); More than one of |pages=, |at=, and |page= specified (help); Unknown parameter |coauthor= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |conference= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |conferenceurl= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |doi_inactivedate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |editorformat= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysource= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |notracking= ignored (|no-tracking= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |publicationdate= ignored (|publication-date= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |sandbox= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |titlelink= ignored (|title-link= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |transcript= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |transcripturl= ignored (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
The option "type=" has been omitted, to show default "Press release". The id has been set as "id=Docket" for emphasis. Page should show "p." and the new parameters include: "issue=" and "publicationdate=" and "agency=" in case used. This test omits "chapter=" and "chapterlink=" and "chapterurl=" because the format is not yet resolved for them, and hence nothing to test against. The original for "ol=" does not show a space between "OL OL-22A" which is a prior, unresolved issue. Those parameters give a general overview of format alignment. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:57/20:19, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
Cite_web unlinked Citation/core 16 hours
FYI: I think I caught the start of the unlinking of those 1.3 million pages from {Citation/core}, which began 23 hours after {cite_web} transitioned, to start unlinking just before 01:00 (UTC) which ran until around 16:00, at the rate of 1380-1600 pages unlinked per minute. That left 158,000 pages still using {Citation/core}, as 95,000 pages with {citation} and 63,000 other pages using {cite_*} forks, or perhaps the "late bloomer" pages of {cite_web} still trying to unlink, for a few more days. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- You might be interested in WP:REPLAG. The toolserver tools, including the transclusion count tool, often lag behind real-time due to delays in mirroring database changes. That's why the unlinking appeared to begin 20+ hours after the actual transition. Dragons flight (talk)