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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) at 03:27, 6 May 2013 (Robot: Archiving 1 thread from Talk:Progressive Utilization Theory.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Crovetto discussion moved to WP:RSN

Any and all opinions welcome here. GaramondLethe 20:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Pardon me, but what power does any participant in this discussion of the PROUT article have to move a particular aspect of our discussion from this Talk page to another forum? Was there anything inappropriate in our earlier discussion of the Crovetto article? Is such a premature and unilateral action a constructive way to reach consensus? --Abhidevananda (talk) 03:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Why not pleasantly move forward?

This article is so deeply in violation of Wikipedia policies, standards and norms and encyclopedic norms that it inevitable that it will undergo substantial changes. To the defenders of the "status quo" I offer the following thought. Instead of spending weeks or months in a painful-for-you losing battle to keep this in its terrible current state (which could result in a much less agreeable-to-you version than a compromise effort would) which not start pleasantly moving forward to a compromise version right now? And I mean really moving forward, not a grinding sentence by sentence debate. North8000 (talk) 15:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

North, I don't take any of your earlier sentences for granted. For example, I don't see anyone here defending the status quo. So perhaps that was not the most "pleasant" way to present your suggestion. Nevertheless, your ultimate proposal does not sound any different from what I have been proposing from the very beginning. Perhaps you conceive of a different way of "pleasantly moving forward" than I do. What I envision is going section by section (not sentence by sentence). I don't see any problem with the overall structure of the article. In fact, I learned this structure from Tito. And, by the way, when it comes to secondary sources, the matter of the Crovetto article is not at all closed in my estimation (nor has the discussion been moved to any other forum). Perhaps, when Garamond's scanned version of the article is uploaded so that his assertions may be confirmed, we could end the discussion of that matter fairly quickly. If indeed the VaNRM article is as Garamond describes it - less biased and better referenced than the Nova Religio version - I would be content to accept that article as "reliable" (by Wikipedia standards). However, if it turns out to be just a recycled version of the Nova Religio article with no significant improvements, then I would not be so inclined. Whatever may be any policies or norms of Wikipedia, my conscience does not permit me to turn a blind eye to the propagation of falsehood. Whenever and wherever I see that happening, I would certainly invoke WP:IAR and any other policy that might prevent such an antisocial act. I say this not just in relation to this article or the articles categorized as part of the Sarkarverse. I say it in relation to any and every article that I may work on in Wikipedia. --Abhidevananda (talk) 17:02, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I have not been deep enough here in to absorb/everything that you just said. What I have read and based my thoughts on is the current article and the proposed substitution ("Proposal to replace current content"). So I apologize that I have no idea what you are talking about with respect to Crovetto, Nova Religio, Sarkarverse, VaNRM. So I was more speaking as a uninvolved person. What I do see is the current article which has such so deeply in violation of Wikipedia policies, standards and norms and encyclopedic norms that it can't possibly survive without significant changes. Hence my idea. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
North, I am not arguing with you about that. Indeed, I was not even trying to argue. What I was saying is only that you seemed to make a number of unsubstantiated assumptions. I don't believe that anyone here is "defending the status quo". Indeed, it would be entirely hypocritical for anyone who agrees with PROUT (as I do) to attempt such a thing. PROUT does not even accept the possibility of a status quo. And that is why PROUT calls for unending and ever-accelerating progress. So if there are issues here - and clearly there are - then we should work in a cooperative, coordinated fashion to resolve those issues. If you merely scroll up this page - admittedly quite lengthy - you will see that I have repeatedly proposed the very same thing that you proposed. Universal Life has also repeatedly stated that he wants to see more secondary sources in the article. Cornelius and DezDeMonaaa also said similar things. So who exactly do you think is in favor of the status quo? The only thing that I personally say no to is any attempt to eviscerate an informative article and replace it with incoherence and gossip. I am pretty sure that the structure of the article is indeed encyclopedic. If that is not so, please explain why not. However, if so, then I think we should start going through the sections and try to improve them one by one. We should try to reach consensus on the appropriate content of each section. I would welcome any and all assistance in that respect. But I also need to be clear about one thing here. I do not agree with building an article solely on the basis of secondary sources. I do not see that happening in other similar articles on Wikipedia, and there is no policy of Wikipedia that I am aware of that strictly rules out the use of primary sources. There is one further limitation that I would insist on. Except in a dedicated Critique section, I would not agree to describing the various key concepts of PROUT purely on the basis of secondary sources if those secondary sources demonstrably contradict the primary source in that respect. I don't mind mentioning what those secondary sources say, but we must also then mention what the primary source says. To do otherwise, would amount to a conscious propagation of falsehood. --Abhidevananda (talk) 22:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
What I see is a proposal which (in the context here) would make it so impossibly time-consuming to fix the article that it would prevent it from happening. Here's an alternate idea. Why don't YOU (and the other proponent folks) condense the current material down to about 1/2 of its current size. And then bring in the brief "Proposal to replace current content" material. North8000 (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
North, thank you for pursuing this proposal in a calm manner and with a readiness for compromise. I believe that is the best way forward here. In that same spirit, let me say that I am not fundamentally averse to your suggestion. For example, I am already half-inclined to remove the entire section on criminology. I think that it actually might fit better in the Neohumanism article anyway. If we were to do that, we would already be a long way forward to reducing the size of this article by 50%. However, that said, I don't think that the size of the article is - or should be - a critical factor here. PROUT is a very large topic, and currently on Wikipedia there really is only one significant article on the subject. So, given the size of the topic itself, the structure of the article was set up to make it easy for readers to jump directly to the discussion of the aspect of PROUT that interests them. In a lengthy article like this (even at 50%, still lengthy), no one is expected to read everything from start to finish. --Abhidevananda (talk) 16:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
The issue is not the size, it is the amount and proportion of self-description-by-proponents material in there. In a perfect article this would be approximately 0 / 0%, in the current article it is about 100%. That was the reasoning behind my idea. North8000 (talk) 16:38, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Pardon me, North, but are we arguing again? If so, why? You talk about a "perfect article". Presumably by "perfect", you mean strictly in accordance with currently preferred standards in the current Wikipedia community (most fairly young, middle class, White, Western, Christian males, if I'm not mistaken). But "perfect" is an absolute concept that would be very hard to pin down in this case, because norms tend to shift. A perfect article today will seem imperfect tomorrow. And every article is limited in various ways by the characteristics of the topic under discussion. So I would ask you: out of the nearly 4,000,000 articles on Wikipedia, how many of them would you classify as "perfect"? Personally, I think that we can only try to do the best we can, given the specific circumstances of each article. In this case, we have an article that is generally considered to be notable, but it has some drawbacks. Some of those drawbacks may be the result of systemic bias. Some of those drawbacks may be the result of the Ananda Marga policy to publish in-house, which adds to the difficulty in finding secondary sources that serve as book reviews. And some of those drawbacks may be the result of the fact that PROUT is essentially a theory that has been propounded in great detail - and with total authority - by just one person. So, North, I don't know what you mean by "0 / 0%", but I expect - and I think that you should expect - that the percentage of primary source material in this article will necessarily be much higher than what you believe to be an absolute ideal. We need to compromise here. I accept your point that we should bring in more secondary sources. But you should recognize - and accept - that I consider it preposterous to attempt a reliable and informative article on PROUT that does not reference the primary source much more often than would happen in your hypothetical "perfect article". --Abhidevananda (talk) 17:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is inherently and by design and fundamental choice largely what secondary sources say about the topic. That is why people come here; if they want to know what the creator of the theory has to say about it, they can go to the creator's web page, blog or facebook account. North8000 (talk) 19:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
North, we do that for the details, but we include a basic account here of what he says about it himself, saying it is his view-- a single short paragraph is usual-- because what the creator choose to say about it is relevant, though it is not definitive about the actual meaning or implication of the theory--what relies on analysis by others. . DGG ( talk ) 16:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your clarification, DGG. That is exactly what I was trying to do with each of the key concepts set out in the article. Of necessity, I occasionally summarized concepts, but I avoided interpretation. For the most part, I merely stated in a concise and objective fashion the propounder's position - and hence the official position of PROUT - on a range of key concepts, providing a clear citation in each case (often involving a specific quotation) to back up that position description. (I understand from Tito and others that my style of citation is amateurish and inconsistent. I certainly welcome guidance and assistance in this respect.) So, in short, I have only done exactly what we see in the Division of labor article, in this case, necessarily relying on a single primary source because there is only one primary source to quote. My point throughout this discussion has been that a greater than usual reliance on the primary source is required for an article on a subject like this. To create an article on PROUT based entirely on secondary sources - as we see in the proposed draft by Location - would reduce the article on PROUT to nothing but a book review of a book review. That would not benefit readers who come to Wikipedia for more concrete information on the subject. Again, I have tried to write the article in as neutral a fashion as I could. If there be any error in that respect, I welcome correction. I also have no objection to the inclusion of secondary sources in this article. Rather, I also welcome that. I appreciate the assistance given in locating secondary material, and I have no objection to others adding any secondary material that is either supportive or critical of PROUT. The purpose of the article that I wrote is not - and never has been - to advocate or promote PROUT. The purpose is only to present PROUT accurately and informatively. As I see it, any social theory worthy of consideration must be able to stand on its own merits. --Abhidevananda (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
North, I doubt that you can substantiate your assertions as to why people come to Wikipedia. Is there any independent and reliable poll on such a matter? If I were to hazard a guess about it, I would say that the main reason people come to Wikipedia is simply to get information on a subject and Wikipedia is often the first or second hit in their search on Google. Depending on the subject, I doubt that most people would even think about distinctions between primary and secondary sources. As to your final remark, it is rather bizarre. If I want to know what Plato said about division of labor, can I go to Plato's webpage, blog, or facebook account to get that information? Obviously not. And will Wikipedia say: Sorry, but that is something we won't tell you, because a reliable reply to that requires references from a primary source? Again, certainly not. Let's take a look at the Wikipedia article on division of labor. The bulk of it is a report on what different theorists had to say about the subject. And, if I am not mistaken, in each case the reference is to the primary source. This means that the article is 90% referenced to primary sources. Looking at the stats on the article, I see that it was created in 2001, has had 600 authors, and has seen 953 edits. At any stage in the development of the article - up to the very present - has anyone yet complained about an over-reliance on primary sources? I doubt it. In any event, there is no template at the top of that article expressing any such concern. Would you care to add that template to the division-of-labor article? --Abhidevananda (talk) 01:16, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
That article is 100% secondary sources with respect to its topic. North8000 (talk) 01:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
In that case, North, what is the primary source with respect to the division-of-labor topic? But, anyway, I was mostly focused on the Theorists section of the article - the bulk of the article. In every case that I examined, what was written about division of labor by the particular theorist under discussion was referenced with a primary source. Did you not notice that? Come on, North... the title you gave to this section is "Why not pleasantly move forward?" Let's try to do that. --Abhidevananda (talk) 03:25, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Additional source

From Dr. Narasingha P. Sil's "The Troubled World of the Ananda Marga: An Examination", The Quarterly Review of History, 28:4, 1988, pp 3-19.

"The most noteworthy feature of the Ananda Marga movement has been its recent renown in respect of its theory of social cycles and of Progressive Utilization of Resources (Prout). The central theme of Proutism is maximum utilization of all resources—physical and psychological—in order to build a new global society that harmonizes technological and spiritual progress of mankind. Especially, Sarkar's theory of social cycles, adumbrated in his Manuser Somaj, has been utilized by Professor Ravi Batra in his sensational best-seller, The Great Depression of 1990. Admittedly, Sarkar's theory of social cycles has little originality or historical validity, it being a restatement, with some feeble adjustments, of the familiar Hindu division of society in four castes. Nevertheless, its application by Batra for explicating the current and social and economic predicament has attempted to legitimize Sarkar's message. Its intellectual and historical bankruptcy notwithstanding, the thinking behind this theory and its sequel, the theory of Prout, illustrates some economic and ecological consciousness. In this era of wanton consumerism, the Marga's emphasis on maximum utilization must be welcomed as the right socio-economic creed, even though some critics, perhaps with some justification, have been skeptical about its validity." (page 9)

Quite a bit more critical discussion in there as well, and despite that the overall tone is sympathetic. GaramondLethe 01:30, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

It seems that Garamond has found one more source to add to the Critiques section of the article. And I guess this means that Garamond will not be adding the PROUT article to his long list of AfD nominations in respect to the Sarkarverse. "Proutism"? Never heard anyone refer to Progressive Utilization Theory as that. "Admittedly... little originality or historical validity... feeble adjustments"... yes, this chap is definitely writing with an unbiased and "sympathetic tone"... just like Helen Crovetto. . --Abhidevananda (talk) 03:15, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I suppose I should give a comment based on long experience at AfD that lack of notability is not the only reason for deletion, though it is the most common one. If an article is primarily advocacy, and all attempts to make it neutral have failed, it can be deleted accordingly. An article that discusses the details of a fringe theory is often regarded as advocacy. This is always a matter of opinion, and the consensus at AfD on such matters is unpredictable. A modest article is much more likely to survive than one which is over-expansive. DGG ( talk ) 16:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you again for your input, DGG. As I have said above, this article on PROUT is not advocacy. I think that a close reading of the article will show that the language is neutral. If there be any instance where that is not so, then I would not only support but also insist on the language being changed. Regarding the matter of "fringe theories", I suppose it is also open to debate as to the extent to which PROUT is actually a "fringe theory". Presumably, just because it is being discussed at WP:FTN does not make it "fringe". Yes, there are many new elements to be found in respect to PROUT, for example, in respect to PROUT's quadridimensional economics and PROUT's theory of history. However, I would argue that these are not bizarre concepts but rather well-founded constructs that are rationally presented. Almost everything is presented with strong foundation. The one exception might be the concept of Prama, which could seem foreign to anyone who has little knowledge of yogic theory. Hence, that section is one of the shortest in the entire article (only a very few sentences). Is the article on PROUT "over-expansive"? I don't think so. There are many thousands of pages of writings by the propounder on this subject. Those writings cover a period of 31 years. As a social theory, PROUT is very comprehensive, arguably much more comprehensive than other social theories. Furthermore, when a social theory is described - by various secondary sources - as a possible alternative to capitalism and communism, readers will naturally want to know what is the position of PROUT on a range of topics. Accordingly, I organized the article with an encyclopedic structure (an alphabetical listing of topics, well-suited to the Wiki format involving a TOC and hyperlinks) to ensure that readers of the topic may easily access the specific information that they seek without having to read the entire article from start to finish. Under such circumstances, I don't believe that the size of the article should be a major issue. Though AfD debates are indeed a bit unpredictable, I find it difficult to believe that size alone would justify deletion of an informative article, neutral in expression and both encyclopedic and reader-friendly in structure. That said, as I indicated to North in our Why not pleasantly move forward discussion, I am open to shortening the article, for example by removing the Criminology section (possibly moving it to the Neohumanism article). Another alternative would be to restructure the entire PROUT article, creating a large number of smaller articles on the various key concepts. But somehow, I think that the crowd at User:Mangoe/Sarkar_articles would resist that proposal. --Abhidevananda (talk) 21:15, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Two more sources for the Critiques section of the article

There is a second Sil article available here. Apparently, this second article is much later than the article that Garamond has quoted from. I have not had the time to go through this second article in detail, but I have been told that the bias is a bit reduced in this article. From the little I have seen, that reduction is minimal. For example, Sil says: "Sarkar is silent on the most popular variety of Tantra – the Shakta Tantra." But the electronic edition of Sarkar's books in English turns up a great many hits on the subject of Shakta tantra, easily disproving Sil's assertion. I have uploaded this second article by Sil here. I also now have a copy of the PhD thesis of Sohail Inayatullah, which should - at the very least - dispel Sil's assertion that Sarkar's theory of history lacks originality. I have uploaded Inayatullah's PhD thesis here. So, at this stage, I think we have a lot of additional material to include in the Critiques section of the PROUT article. I would be grateful for any assistance that the Fringe/n editors here would contribute toward the expansion of - or even a total rewrite of - that section of the article. --Abhidevananda (talk) 14:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

we have to go by the secondary sources. We have sometimes used phd theses, but not when there are better sources. What we cannot use is our own interpretation or analysis of the primary sources. that's the definition of Original Research, and however right you may be in your interpretation, it does not belong in WP. DGG ( talk ) 16:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Understood and agreed. Hence, we should present both the position of Sil and the position of Inayatullah in the Critiques section of the article without advocating either position. --Abhidevananda (talk) 21:15, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

One more source for the Critiques section of the article

Here is an article by Johan Galtung that makes significant mention of Sarkar's theory of history. This also tends to refute the dismissive remarks by Sil. --Abhidevananda (talk) 16:02, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Galtung is an authority, but this is only work presented at a conference, not in a peer reviewed journal. He does discuss the subject substantially--it fact, it seems to be advocacy for it. It can probably be used, making it clear that it is his opinion. DGG ( talk ) 16:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. But would we not want to make clear that Sil - and any other secondary source - is also expressing an opinion? Would we not write: "According to Sil..." "According to Galtung..."? --Abhidevananda (talk) 21:22, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Going forward?

We have another month to move toward consensus. My thoughts on this are that we could still achieve that end if we focus more on the positive and less on the negative. Thus far no one has argued against the structure of the article - its outline. Presumably, that structure/outline is reasonable. Where we have gotten mired down is in opposing each other's content. But I believe that there is room for everything here. If we were to accept what each side wants to see in this article, we could then work on matters like ensuring neutrality of language, accuracy, and concision. So I propose that we set aside quarreling about what is wrong with each other's content, and collectively try to improve the total content. --Abhidevananda (talk) 08:27, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The article does need significant changes to bring it in line with policies and to make it encyclopedic. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:31, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
So let's do it, but let's respect each other's input as our starting point. We talked about this already, North. And David came in and made clear that it is appropriate to have short paragraphs stating the author's view on topics. So let's try to imagine a single article on PROUT, introducing the social theory of PROUT as a whole and then briefly setting out the position of PROUT on various key topics. We then present various critiques of PROUT (for and against). Please note that PROUT is an alternative social theory, but - by and large - it is not a fringe theory. If there are any sections of the article that seem fringey, let's deal with them accordingly. So our main concerns should be neutral point of view, no original research, and verifiability. I don't see any problem with any of those three elements. So let's try to resolve this matter in a constructive and amicable fashion. --Abhidevananda (talk) 13:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
BTW I am NOT saying that negative stuff is needed for balance. I AM saying that, as a minimum the primary sourced stuff needs to be condensed and more secondary sourced material with encyclopedic wording needs to be added. Maybe we should see if we can get the article unlocked on a trial basis and start editing and see how it goes? North8000 (talk) 13:24, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
North, I think it would be rash to lift the protection on the article without having a viable consensus article in place. After all, there was good reason why protection was imposed. So perhaps - as it is just you and I who have been talking lately - you could do the honors by setting up a sandbox for a consensus article. I'd really like to see what it is that you have in mind. --Abhidevananda (talk) 04:38, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

My Limited involvement on this group of articles

In this case I do not have in depth involvement in the topic or articles. My first involvement was coaching the proponents and asking for delays at AFD's because I felt that the proponents did not understand wp:notability well enough to get themselves a fair shake at AFD. Later it was noticing what terrible shape this article is in with respect to Wikipedia policies and being enclyclopedic. It's basically 100% a self-description of the topic from primary sources. It was also my first impression that a group of ardent proponents of this topic were blocking the repair of the article. So my brief efforts have been along these three lines:

  • A few hopefully objectives comments from an experienced editor about the state of the article.
  • I also have a tendency towards mediation or trying to find a way forward where a few quick efforts and thoughts can make a big difference.
  • Trying to help balance the process by brief weigh-ins on the side of those trying to get the article repaired.

My thoughts about the topic are that it appears interesting, and I see nothing negative about it, but that I know little or nothing about it because there is nothing here except a self-description by proponent.....this article is completely lacking in encyclopedic coverage from independent or secondary sources. My Wikipedia time is too short to spend a lot of time in a sandbox or off line draft on this article. If the article were unlocked, I would be happy to blaze through the article as a neutral editor trying to wikify the article. I would neutrally condense the current content by about 30%, and add in the content from the "Proposed content for Progressive Utilization Theory" proposal above,and organize the article to accommodate both. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:06, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

  • In principle, I have no objection to a reduction of the current content by about 30% (preferably including the Criminology section, which I think may not be required). I have set up the page Talk:Progressive Utilization Theory/Temp so that North can edit it, and we can then all see how it turns out. If everyone is happy with that article - and agrees not to make further changes without prior consensus on the Talk page of the article - then I think we will have the necessary consensus to request a removal of protection on the Progressive Utilization Theory article (although it might still make sense to seek some sort of partial protection, given the tendency of this article to attract heated dispute). --Abhidevananda (talk) 05:23, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I had mentioned that I'm not up for substantial work off line. If someone didn't like my efforts at a 30% on a live article they could revert them. I/we could start slow if there is some concern. North8000 (talk) 10:45, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Getting rid of the criminology section would certainly be a good start. bobrayner (talk) 11:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
To make that more explicit: if we reach a consensus to lift the page protection early, you're willing to make a few passes over the article. I'd like to give that a try. Others? Garamond Lethet
c 19:24, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I'd be happy to do that. Just so that everyone knows how dumb-on-this/neutral I am, my only thoughts going in at this point is, as I indicated: "I would neutrally condense the current content by about 30%, and add in the content from the "Proposed content for Progressive Utilization Theory" proposal above,and organize the article to accommodate both." and to Wikify the wording a bit. If people don't like what I'm doing that could revert me and I won't be upset (maybe just a bit sad :-) ) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Let's first see what North does at Talk:Progressive Utilization Theory/Temp. --Abhidevananda (talk) 01:39, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
There is currently an active Rfc requesting input on three proposals. Unless there is consensus to close the Rfc early, its probably best to let that run its course then bring in an administrator for a ruling. In the meantime, I agree that work should be done on the temp page for those who so desire. Location (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2013 (UTC) edited 19:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I had forgotten the RfC was live. I agree: let's allow that to run to completion then. Garamond Lethet
c 05:10, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I mentioned that I don't plan to do work in the sandbox. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't blame you. I've edited my comment. Location (talk) 19:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
As a guide, I would estimate that "I would neutrally condense the current content by about 30%" has it backwards. 30% is about the maximum length that should be left in. Abhidevananda, in my opinion, you are making very minor concessions in response to major problems. DGG ( talk ) 05:44, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Pardon me, David, but you have this upside down. North made a proposal, and I immediately accepted his proposal in principle. However, in line with earlier discussion, I simply requested North to show us what his "neutral 30% reduction of the current content" would look like by doing it at Talk:Progressive Utilization Theory/Temp. North offered, and I accepted. But what is the use of this offer if everyone else here does not agree to it? And why not nail this agreement down properly by everyone seeing what they are agreeing to before requesting unprotection of the article? Furthermore, I believe that we should discuss some sort of semi-protection of the new article that North would produce and all of us agree on as a reasonable final step of the consensus process. --Abhidevananda (talk) 08:29, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal by Titodutta

It is being proposed that–

Wikiquette
  • Proposal #1 A: Ac. Abhidevananda's edits were good faith edits and should not be negatively tagged (see proposal #2 before commenting)
  • Proposal #1 B: Bobrayner etc tried to follow Wikipedia policies, so there edits should not be tagged as vandalism or non constructive edits either (see proposal #2 before commenting)
Wikipedia policy
  • Proposal #2: Ac. Abhidevananda's edits were good faith edits, but actually those do not match with Wikipedia guidelines (WP:V, WP:RS, WP:FIVE etc etc..).
    • There are possibilities that their philosophical/religious theories are/will be highly helpful for mankind/society etc.
    • It is also possible that Ac. Abhidevananda's work on PROUT or Neohumanism etc are really high standard work or even one of best works ever.
    • And we can not doubt on Ac. Abhidevananda's personal expertise on these subjects who is researching on these subjects for 40+ years.
      BUT
      In Wikipedia, we don't do this. We don't judge what is right and what is wrong. "Wikipedia is just an encyclopedia, not a manifesto or even a journal". (see last part of proposal #3 A for an example)

So,

Content
  • Proposal #3 A: it is being proposed to keep only those content which are supported by independent scholarly works. Again, this is not an attempt to defame the organization or the editors. This is just Wikipedia policy. For example, if Einstein comes to Wikipedia and says he wants to publish a new theory on "Super special relativity" (sounds interesting, is not it? ), most probably we are going to say the same thing what we are saying here "No, Mr. Einstein, Wikipedia is not a platform for such original research."
  • Proposal #3 B: We can discuss on Wikipolcies, but, we will not attempt to assess or judge Parabhat Ranjan Sarkar's or Ananda Marga's works in general.
  • Proposal #3 C: (needless to say) they obviously can start their own Wiki and collect content from Wikipedia articles under CC SA license or they can write e-books using lulu.com etc. If we can we'll provide them technical suggestions. --Tito Dutta (talk) 04:25, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Support

  • Support Proposal #3 of Tito Dutta who is obviously speaking from a lot of experience at WP:AAU. :) Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 04:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support proposal 3A and 3C; it looks like a direct route to much higher quality content, bypassing the problems we've seen recently. I'm not convinced that "scholarly" is essential here - there may be non-scholarly sources that are helpful in certain areas. "Independent" can be problematic too - for instance, people closely associated with PROUT &c have been used as "independent" sources on related articles. However, in general, I think 3A and 3C are helpful. But what is proposal 3B for? Can you clarify? bobrayner (talk) 16:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
See below --Tito Dutta (talk) 02:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support 3a. I was summoned by the RfC bot so haven't been involved before, and this seems like the least amount of original research. Dreambeaver(talk) 20:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support 3a. I had thought the RfC was for the content replacement proposal below. This is just a restatement of policy. Garamond Lethet
    c     17:39, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support #3a But a bit of compromise is OK too. All of the rest of the items aren't really specific proposals. North8000 (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support 3a. This appears to be the only true proposal put forth by Titodutta, but I support it as a start to getting the article back into line with Wikipedia policies and guidelines regarding reliable sources. Location (talk) 16:51, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

  • Oppose. I find it difficult to agree with proposal 1A (and, hence, part of proposal 2), considering the personal attacks, the repeated violations of wikipedia policies after they'd been pointed out by other editors, the incompatibility of some of Abhidevananda's actual edits with their claimed intent, and so on. But, hey, let's try to move forward - it's possible that things could be different in future. I'm not bothered about individual editors; what matters is the content. Serious problems have been found in the content; the content should be fixed. bobrayner (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Tito Dutta: Thank you for your neutrality and your efforts to attempt to resolve this dispute. I understand the need to recognize that everyone is working in good faith, however, the only actual proposal above appears to be "keep only those content which are supported by independent scholarly works". My point of view is that some use of material from primary sources or sources not independent to the subject may be allowed but that the article should first be built upon secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Achieving this end by working backwards is frequently a difficult proposition. I think we should formulate a couple different options for specific actions on what should be done with the article as it currently exists. One option is to do nothing and leave it as it is. As we have seen, this will not work as edit wars will resume immediately after it comes off protection. Another option is to send it to Afd. This may settle the issue if it is deleted, however, it will not if it survives. A third option that has been presented is to revert to some version in the past. A fourth option is to start over with a short paragraph build upon reliable secondary source material. A proposal to userfy the current material could be included with these other proposals to address the concern regarding loss of content. There may be others options, too. Location (talk) 14:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Another option is to send it to Afd..

a) Rationale/criteria? b) notability is not an issue c) are you suggesting WP:TNT? --Tito Dutta (talk) 14:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
The lack of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject indicates that notability is an issue. Whether or not this should be a stand-alone article is one issue still to be resolved here. I imagine that blowing it up and starting over would be closer to the fourth option I mentioned, but a fifth option would be to merge and redirect. Location (talk) 15:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think a trip to AfD is viable. Regardless of the problems with the content, which currently seem impossible to resolve with normal editing, any AfD would surely get a lot of keep !votes. bobrayner (talk) 16:16, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
OK. We can chalk that up as an "oppose" for sending to Afd. Some sort of action needs to be taken. What do you propose? Location (talk) 04:48, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
I would propose that we remove content which is untrue, overly promotional, or can't be supported by independent sources. However, it is difficult to do this without somebody hitting the revert button. All alternative suggestions welcomed... bobrayner (talk) 18:55, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Your method has led to an edit war which resulted in a locked article. That is the first option noted above. I have already noted four alternative suggestions. Location (talk) 19:08, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
If you can think of an alternative solution which removes the problematic content but which will not get automatically reverted, I would be deeply impressed and very grateful. bobrayner (talk) 03:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The draft below looks excellent. If everyone agrees, the current version can be replaced with that version after doing some more work. I collected some JSTOR documents on Ananda Marga etc. I have saved those in Google Docs. Tell me if you need those, I'll send you the Google Docs link! --Tito Dutta (talk) 03:11, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The draft at User:Location/Sandbox10 could use a few suggestions and references. Please contribute there. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 03:16, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that the draft below, and the version at User:Location/Sandbox10 are both far better than the current article; I would be happy with either. THey would also appear to solve the problems identified by other uninvolved editors. bobrayner (talk) 11:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Location's sandbox article looks very good! --Tito Dutta (talk) 11:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I totally support Location's idea to prepare the PROUT article in a user's subpage to keep the edit wars out. To create such a draft and grow it with time was also in my mind for a while so that we could produce an excellent and neutral basis by secondary reliable sources and later to enrich it by the cautious use of primary sources, without analysing them. I didn't have the time until now but I think this is a very good way of resolving conflict. Thank you Location for not taking sides, trying to make peace and resolve the problem, without deleting an important article. I'll try to help with the sandbox as soon as I find time and I think to protect the main article as it is, for a longer period might be helpful for few reasons, such as edit wars and others --Universal Life (talk) 13:54, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I've just realised that the article was already protected again :) --Universal Life (talk) 14:00, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Giving credit where credit is due: The draft in my sandbox is essentially what CK has prepared below, but in a format that might be a bit easier to visualize as an article. Location (talk) 17:45, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

An initial draft of what PROUT would look like summarized from Violence and New Religious Movements by James R. Lewis (pp. 258–263):

PROUT, Sarkar's socioeconomic and political theory, is summarized in the fifth chapter of Ananda Sutram. PROUT divides the society into four classes sudras (labourers), ksatriyas (military–minded individuals), vipra (intellectuals) and vaisyas (capitalists).[Footnote on Hindu varna system would be required here] Each of the four classes dominate society cyclically, for a period of time, in an infinite social spiral. To prevent any social class from clinging to political power, Sarkar proposed the concept of Sadvipras (etymologically sat – true, vipra – intellectual).

Sadvipras were supposed to be a classless group of intellectuals and spiritual elites who would apply varying degrees of force on the society to allow power to be transferred from one class to another. The resulting change would be revolutionary in case of great degrees of force or mildly transformative if lesser degree of force was used. Nevertheless, Sarkar felt that a sudra revolution (worker's uprising) would always be necessary to wrest power from the capitalists (vaishyas) whom he saw as "immoral anti–social" exploiters. Sarkar further thought that "in most cases [such] popular emancipation is blood soaked". The Sadvipras were to be organized into legislative, judicial and executive boards which would be governed by a Supreme Board. Sarkar saw all countries in the world as being in different stages of the social cycle. He therefore wanted to establish a global Sadvipra society from disgruntled middle class intellectuals and military minded people. Since the establishment of such a society on a global scale would take time, Sarkar also advocated "blind physical force" to establish rule of the Sadvipras.[There is more content on Paramilitary activity proposed by Sarkar and secret military pacts with other organizations. I am not sure how relevant it is to PROUT and social cycle theory itself, so I'm leaving it out for now.]

PROUT's economic model envisions a world where key industries or public utilities are non–profit, a decentralized industry run by sociolinguistic unions (samaj) provide people's bare minimum necessities, and most of the economic transactions are through producers' and consumers' cooperatives. It distinguishes itself from Communism by proposing an incentive based economy where surplus in the society is distributed to people who serve the society.

Feel free to add/remove content/references. Please strike off the changed content so that the modifications are easily visible to other editors. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 18:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

This is good stuff built from the sources that Wikipedia requires. Using some of this, I have also placed an initial draft in my sandbox for comments and suggestions. Location (talk) 04:44, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
This version looks very good! --Tito Dutta (talk) 04:49, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment on #3b It proposes not to assess those content or their real life works unless those are clearly related to Wikipedia discussion, personal opinion/feelings on those concepts, why we think those are right/wrong etc! --Tito Dutta (talk) 02:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Other comments

Result: Has gone dead with no resolution or decisions. Efforts on this have been and/or should be focused elsewhere. North8000 (talk) 11:13, 3 March 2013 (UTC) North8000 (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Consensus was misleading, so I've changed the title to other comments. Dead or not RfC discussions need to be closed by uninvolved editors unless involved editors have reached a consensus before the 30 day period. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 15:05, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Update

The article is still a bone of contention. Are we going to agree to disagree or give it one more try? --Tito Dutta (contact) 23:21, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

It's here. Yeah, that's the trouble with all the bludgeoning this page has gone through. Even an editor aware of the issues here can't find it. Location (talk) 01:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I just wrote at the end there: "Result: Has gone dead with no resolution or decisions. Efforts on this have been and/or should be focused elsewhere." North8000 (talk) 11:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't see what the objection is to the RfC being closed properly by an uninvolved administrator given that the issue remains contentious and consensus remains unclear despite weeks of discussion. Besides, an uninvolved editor commented on those three proposals less than two weeks ago, I wouldn't call it dead just yet. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 15:42, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I was just trying to help this along (and restart overall progress on the article which seems to be waiting on a dead RFC) by stating the obvious. If anybody objects I will strike what I wrote. North8000 (talk) 15:54, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand. North8000 (talk) 16:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Since the article is protected, all of us make necessary changes in the draft copy, i.e. the temp page, and after making a stable copy, we may replace the content of the article with the temp! --Tito Dutta (contact) 16:24, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The temp page is not a panacea for all our disagreements. If I start working on it, I'll simply replace all the content with Location's proposal, work in a few other secondary sources and then maybe add a few quotes from Sarkar's works. That approach is obviously not acceptable which is why we had such a long dispute and three separate proposals in the first place. Either Abhidevananda and other involved editors agree to let DGG or North8000 edit the page as they see fit, both of whom have have offered to do so, or we can wait for the RfC to close. As i see it, editing on the temp page will only lead to more and more of the same. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 16:27, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I agree. I am tired of being "bludgeoned by the process" and a temp page is just more of the same. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy to wait a few more days and get a ruling on the Rfc. Location (talk) 16:32, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Re: "dead discussion". Titodutta, that what I thought when I posted here, but others insisted that I was acting in bad faith (for instance) and moved the Rfc header ([1], [2]). Your neutrality is to be commended, but it would have been helpful if you had rebuked those attacks and openly acknowledged that I was simply trying to break the gridlock here. Location (talk) 16:30, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I had thought the RfC was on the question of replacing the existing article with the proposed article that was in line with policy. I've now realized my error and !voted on the RfC. Garamond Lethet
    c     17:42, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Clicked on "save" and went for dinner and after returning, found it was struck with an edit conflict I did/have not read that "another attack" (also "Corvetto's article", atomic explosion" etc) thread(s). I d(id/on)'t have so much. A hindrance of our discussion has been iteration of same points. One should not repeat same things again and again and write in precise and pointwise. The content of the temp page could be replaced with the one Location had prepared. That edit will most likely be reverted, but that will open a corridor to move forward at least, I anticipate! --Tito Dutta (contact) 18:12, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • The article was protected because of an edit war over whether to include swathes of content which failed WP:V and WP:NPOV. We should just unprotect the article and edit in line with wikipedia's policies. That's not difficult. Is that acceptable to you, Tito Dutta? If some editor were to resume edit-warring or sockpuppeting or canvassing in order to return unsourced and non-neutral content to the article, we should try some alternative solution instead of protecting their preferred version of the article. bobrayner (talk) 09:44, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I did not revert any of these edits, nor your or theirs and did nothing (read "no revert") other than having the article protected. You can have the article unprotected, but are you sure it'll not instigate the edit warring again? (this is disgusting, this is completely against Wikipedia policies and specially ideals to have an article fully protected for 3 months!) --Tito Dutta (contact) 13:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't accuse you of editwarring. I'm asking whether you feel this article should comply with WP:V and WP:NPOV. Unfortunately, it does not at the moment, because a more policy-compliant version was unpalatable to Abhidevananda, who kept on reverting it as "vandalism", and the wrong version got protected. Do you feel it is sufficient for editors to comply with policy, or should we make further concessions so that the article can contain text that some editors really want even when that text blatantly fails multiple policies? bobrayner (talk) 13:51, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Not only this article, all articles should follow all Wikipedia policies and guidelines. The good point is both you and they think the wrong version has been protected. One can try request unprotection as a "test"! I don't have any problem with anything. The only thing I am requesting is lift the protection as soon as possible. 3 months full protection- too much! --Tito Dutta (contact) 14:01, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Good. So you would agree that the article would be better going back to this version which is closer to WP:V and WP:NPOV compliance? We could continue to improve the article from that point, and I would like protection to be lifted quickly so we can start fixing the problems. Would you agree that it would be a Bad Thing if another editor restarted the edit war by reinserting content which clearly failed multiple policies? bobrayner (talk) 14:09, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
That's a diff. I assume you mean the version after the edit (12:09). Looks better. North8000 (talk) 14:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • That version also has some issues! I strongly recommend to do it systematically, an idea mentioned below, you can suggest your own

Make necessary changes in Temp page. and post here in talk page, also at Ac Anhidevananda's and Cornellius's talk page that if those changes go unchallenged for next 72 hours, the text of the main article will be replaced with that one! Of course they will challenge and revert the edit. But, that's how we'll be able to prevent another edit-warring. It is better to have an edit warring in temp page than in mainspace (I don't know if edit warring at temp page counts to 3RR block.

--Tito Dutta (contact) 14:52, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Why is it necessary to notify Anhidevananda and Cornelius? I recognise that previous attempts at changing text have only succeeded when those editors have taken their finger off the revert button, but this article ownership is a Bad Thing, not a Good Thing. No proposal to bring the article in line with WP:V and WP:NPOV can succeed if it gives veto power to the editors who have previously reverted such edits (I can present very many diffs, if necessary). If you want the article to comply with policy, I cannot understand why you propose a mechanism which seems designed to prevent it complying with policy. bobrayner (talk) 15:17, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Informing might be helpful (not "necessary") so that they can't say later that did not know about our plans. I am ready to follow the path you have suggested, and let's see how it goes (I am damn sure, it'll cause another edit warring and might be full protection)! --Tito Dutta (contact) 15:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
If editors repeatedly add unsourced and non-neutral content, protecting their preferred version of the article is not the best solution. The best outcome is that editors stop violating WP:V and WP:NPOV. The second-best outcome is blocking or banning editors - and their sockpuppets - who have persistently flouted policies in order to push their POV. bobrayner (talk) 15:31, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
In case anybody is wondering...My only strong opinion is that the current article is Unwikipedian and needs fixing. I don't really know the topic nor do I have an opinion on it. I don't have any single direction in mind.....I've supported things that look like moves in the right direction, I've indicated that I'm not willing to spend my limited Wikipedia time in a sandbox, I indicated willingness to neutrally blaze through this article when unlocked and neutrally do the merge with new proposed content and approx 30% reduction of current content....but that is just another idea. Also if there are folks totally blockading wikificaiton, then I'm willing to help take a stand to fix that situation. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
North, no one is "blockading wikification". I personally have accepted your proposal in principle. I believe Garamond, Tito, and DGG did as well. Others have not commented. My only reservation is that, given the history of this article and this discussion, I believe that it would be rash to remove the protection before we have consensus. It would not only be like buying a pig in a poke but also, and worse, a potential precipitation of another edit war. So let's get consensus before unprotecting the article. I assure you that from my side, I will be receptive to any reasonable edits that you may make to the PROUT article on the Temp page. As an editor who, unlike you, does know PROUT, I may have some differences of opinion with you regarding what should go and what should remain, but I think we could work those out. --Abhidevananda (talk) 02:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
North8000, if you are suggesting WP:RFC/U, keep me posted. Location (talk) 06:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Abhidevananda, if you agree to follow wikipedia policies such as WP:V and WP:NPOV, then presumably you will not repeat your previous revert-warring to reinsert crappy content, and the risk of an edit-war will abate. If you do not agree to follow wikipedia policies, then the best solution is restrictions on your editing rather than restrictions on the article. Which would you prefer? bobrayner (talk) 10:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
BTW, I didn't say that I expected that my changes would be accepted or stay. My thought is that they would be freely individually editable after I made them, but not get reverted en masse. 14:15, 6 March 2013 (UTC)North8000 (talk) 11:26, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Abhidevananda, if you agree to follow wikipedia policies such as WP:V and WP:NPOV, then presumably you will not repeat your previous revert-warring to reinsert crappy content, and the risk of an edit-war will abate. If you do not agree to follow wikipedia policies, then the best solution is restrictions on your editing rather than restrictions on the article. Which would you prefer? bobrayner (talk) 16:01, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

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