Module talk:Citation/CS1/Archive 6
CS1 comparison testcases
We can have several pages of testcases for wp:CS1 cites, including:
- wp:CS1/test_parameters - list of cites to show each parameter
- wp:CS1/test_basics - list of cites to show basic, typical examples
- wp:CS1/test_problems - list of cites which test known problems/fixes
The massive complexity of the 430+ parameters in the wp:CS1 cite templates requires a large set of testcases, to provide some assurance of handling the astronomically huge set of endless combinations of rampant variations of parameter names. The testcases will provide a basic "sanity test" of the overall functionality, because the testing of all possible parameter groups would exceed the age of the universe, several times over. This is a typical case of combinatorial explosion: "the cite templates can be rewritten within 1 year with Lua script, but would require 90 billion years to completely test". The possible count of testcases starts with 430 factorial (430! ~= 2.2946e+947), or zillions of parameter combinations, where setting "first=" to blank might erase "author=x".
Comparing the related templates: For each new Lua-based template named with "/lua" then the original markup-based template will have a permanent copy as "/old" to compare the side-by-side results, even after the Lua versions are installed with the current template names. For example:
- Template:Cite_web - {cite_web} live, whether markup or switched to Lua-based
- Template:Cite_web/lua - the Lua-based version of {cite_web}
- Template:Cite_web/old - the markup-based version of {cite_web} as the old copy
- Template:Cite_book/lua - the Lua-based version of {cite_book}
- Template:Cite_book/old - the markup-based version of {cite_book} as the old copy
- Template:Cite_journal/lua - the Lua-based version of {cite_journal}
- Template:Cite_journal/old - the markup-based version of {cite_journal} as copied
Again, the focus must be on confirming just the general parameters, with occasional variant spellings; otherwise, there would quickly be hundreds of thousands of parameter combinations. However, without some form of sanity check, then the complexity of the CS1 cites would become impossible to handle. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:03/06:21, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Volume bolding
| Wikitext | {{cite encyclopedia
|
|---|---|
| Live | LAST1, FIRST1; LAST2, FIRST2 (YEAR). "TITLE". In EDITOR (ed.). ENCYCLOPEDIA. Vol. VOLUME (EDITION ed.). LOCATION: PUBLISHER. pp. PAGES. ID. Retrieved 2006-07-02. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |volume= has extra text (help); Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
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| Sandbox | LAST1, FIRST1; LAST2, FIRST2 (YEAR). "TITLE". In EDITOR (ed.). ENCYCLOPEDIA. Vol. VOLUME (EDITION ed.). LOCATION: PUBLISHER. pp. PAGES. ID. Retrieved 2006-07-02. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |volume= has extra text (help); Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
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| No bolding on the volume? | |
Is it intentional to remove the bolding on the volume of an encyclopedia? Dragons flight (talk) 03:41, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Looks like only volume numbers four characters or less are bolded. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
| Wikitext | {{cite encyclopedia
|
|---|---|
| Live | LAST1, FIRST1; LAST2, FIRST2 (YEAR). "TITLE". In EDITOR (ed.). ENCYCLOPEDIA. Vol. 1234 (EDITION ed.). LOCATION: PUBLISHER. pp. PAGES. ID. Retrieved 2006-07-02. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
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| Sandbox | LAST1, FIRST1; LAST2, FIRST2 (YEAR). "TITLE". In EDITOR (ed.). ENCYCLOPEDIA. Vol. 1234 (EDITION ed.). LOCATION: PUBLISHER. pp. PAGES. ID. Retrieved 2006-07-02. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: year (link)
|
- Intentional non-bolded longer volume names: For years, there had been suggestions to unbold the volume name when using a volume-name title, and so beyond 4-character length, it inserts a dot and omits the prior bolding, "Volume III: Garrish to Nominal" because the bolded name had appeared too garrish, too excessive, in many current articles. In fact, the unbolded volume was requested, again, on 21 February 2013, in the above thread "#series/volume/publisher order". For the markup-based templates, a rapid {padleft} can be used to detect and unbold beyond 5-character volume names. -Wikid77 11:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- How was the 4-character limit derived? I see your objective, but I don't think this gives the right answer for
|volume=XXVIIIor|volume=55–56for journal cites. Rjwilmsi 15:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- How was the 4-character limit derived? I see your objective, but I don't think this gives the right answer for
Editor problem
| Wikitext | {{cite book
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|---|---|
| Live | Playfair, Major-General I.S.O.; Stitt, Commander G.M.S; Molony, Brigadier C.J.C.; Toomer, Air Vice-Marshal S.E. (2004) [1st. pub. HMSO:1954]. Butler, J.R.M (ed.). Mediterranean and Middle East Volume I: The Early Successes Against Italy (to May 1941). History of the Second World War, United Kingdom Military Series. Uckfield, UK: Naval & Military Press. ISBN 1-845740-65-3. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)
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| Sandbox | Playfair, Major-General I.S.O.; Stitt, Commander G.M.S; Molony, Brigadier C.J.C.; Toomer, Air Vice-Marshal S.E. (2004) [1st. pub. HMSO:1954]. Butler, J.R.M (ed.). Mediterranean and Middle East Volume I: The Early Successes Against Italy (to May 1941). History of the Second World War, United Kingdom Military Series. Uckfield, UK: Naval & Military Press. ISBN 1-845740-65-3. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)
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| Incorrect labeling on the editor | |
The Lua version replaces the "X ed." editor marker with a nonsensical "In X" expression. Dragons flight (talk) 03:49, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Document collections use "In Editor" format: Some users have preferred the format as "In Editor" rather than "Editor, ed." and so that is why it has been displayed. Because wp:CS1 style is a hodge-podge of cite styles, the Lua module was originally written to use a few styles for all citations, rather than mimic each of the prior 23 {cite_*} fork templates. -Wikid77 11:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- PS. There is also a change to the author list, where the old version had an ampersand. Dragons flight (talk) 03:54, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Changes in page / date handling for cite news
| Wikitext | {{cite news
|
|---|---|
| Live | "Auction Record for an Original 'Alice'". The New York Times. 11 December 1998. p. B30. |
| Sandbox | "Auction Record for an Original 'Alice'". The New York Times. 11 December 1998. p. B30. |
This is a case where the new version is different, but not necessarily wrong (i.e. both approaches seem basically reasonable). The label on the page number and the placement of the publication date appear to have changed in the handling of cite news. I assume this was probably intentional, since it seems like too large a change to be accidental. However, I tried skimming this page and didn't find any discussion of this, so I thought I would highlight it. Dragons flight (talk) 15:47, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- That's a change to cite news, but it doesn't seem to discuss the page and date rearranging. The example given doesn't use the agency or location fields. Dragons flight (talk) 15:55, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- My bad. Not sure how I connected this. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:02, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- That's a change to cite news, but it doesn't seem to discuss the page and date rearranging. The example given doesn't use the agency or location fields. Dragons flight (talk) 15:55, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Reset page format as "p." for Cite_news: There had been an overuse of the colon ":" page format, and so I changed when config.CitationClass is "news" to use the p./pp. page-number format. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Test cases
Are we, through the current process, developing a (near-) comprehensive suite of test cases? Should they be captured and documented for future use? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Expanding representative sets of testcases: The goal is to expand the various pages, of numerous testcases, as issues are noted in importance, such as testcase essay "wp:CS1/test_problems". See above: "#CS1 comparison testcases". The tactic has been to view the pages during a run-preview when editing the Lua Module:Citation/CS1, so the testcases need to be kept limited, at first, so the pages are not too large to view during a run-preview. Because there are potentially unlimited billions of billions of parameter combinations, I expect the testcases to be expanded for years. The complete testing of parameters would exceed the age of the universe, many times over as a combinatorial explosion of parameter choices. -Wikid77 10:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone in 3-year upgrade of CS1 cites
As we can finally see the light at the end of the fast-cite tunnel, with {cite_news} being converted to Lua, I want to take a minute to thank everyone for observing, and debating, and analyzing, and rewriting or fixing the wp:CS1 templates to run much faster and smarter, in both markup and Lua versions. Although the major slowness had been extensive use of {cite_web}, {cite_book}, {cite_journal}, and {cite_news}, the remainder of the 23 {cite_*} forks can still benefit from enhancements to the cite formats, such as fixing some double-dot ".." problems, even in the markup-based cite templates. The core markup Template:Citation/core will continue to be used to support the other {cite_*} forks, which have not been converted to Lua, as well as supporting the long-term comparisons with {cite_web/old}, {cite_book/old}, {cite_journal/old}, and {cite_news/old}, etc. In fact, as the major cites are converted to use Lua, then {Citation/core} can afford to run a little slower, to provide better formatting, for the remaining few cases of other {cite_*} forks which do not use Lua yet. Anyway, the overall improvements have involved many people, in debates and suggestions as well as template/module changes and testing, so let's take a minute to thank everyone for helping, in this 3-year (or longer) transition to better CS1 cite templates. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:24, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Testing Cite_book and date/page
The template {cite_book} should put parameter "others=" (illustrator) before "edition=" as in {cite_book/old}. Like {cite_news}, the place/publisher should not use parenthesis brackets "(__)". Although previously ignored, {cite_book} should put quotation marks around the parameter "title=" when having "journal=" or "periodical=" or "magazine=" or "work=" (yet rarely used). When there is an author/editor, then "date=" should follow that in "(...)" but without author/editor when only "title=" then date should precede the page-number. Also, {cite_book} uses the p./pp. page format.
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Test Cite_book title only. Illustrated by J. Doe (2nd ed.). 1 May 1998. pp. 32–4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)
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| Sandbox | Test Cite_book title only. Illustrated by J. Doe (2nd ed.). 1 May 1998. pp. 32–4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)
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Sandbox: Test Cite_book title only. Illustrated by J. Doe (2nd ed.). 1 May 1998. pp. 32–4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Test Cite_book title+work. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
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| Sandbox | Test Cite_book title+work. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
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Sandbox: Test Cite_book title+work. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
Placement of other parameters has been shifted, slightly different from {cite_book/old}. All parameters for {cite_book}:
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Author (Date) [Origyear]. "Chapter Name". Test Cite_book Parameters. Department (Type). Series (in Language). Vol. Volume. Others (Evening ed.). Place: Publisher. p. page. arXiv:ArXiv. ASIN ASIN. Bibcode:Bibcode. doi:10.DOI. ISBN Isbn. ISSN Issn. JFM JFM. JSTOR Jstor. LCCN LCCN. MR MR. OCLC OCLC. OSTI OSTI. PMC PMC. PMID PMID. RFC RFC. SSRN SSRN. Zbl ZBL. Id. Archived from the original (Format) on Archivedate. Retrieved Accessdate – via Via. Quote {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help); |page= has extra text (help); |volume= has extra text (help); Check |arxiv= value (help); Check |asin-tld= value (help); Check |asin= value (help); Check |bibcode= length (help); Check |doi= value (help); Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help); Check |issn= value (help); Check |jfm= value (help); Check |jstor= value (help); Check |lccn= value (help); Check |mr= value (help); Check |oclc= value (help); Check |osti= value (help); Check |pmc= value (help); Check |pmid= value (help); Check |rfc= value (help); Check |ssrn= value (help); Check |zbl= value (help); Check date values in: |accessdate=, |date=, and |archivedate= (help); External link in |ref=harv (help); More than one of |pages=, |at=, and |page= specified (help); Unknown parameter |agency= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |chapterlink= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |coauthor= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |doi_inactivedate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysource= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |notracking= ignored (|no-tracking= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |titlelink= ignored (|title-link= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |transcript= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |transcripturl= ignored (help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link)
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| Sandbox | Author (Date) [Origyear]. "Chapter Name". Test Cite_book Parameters. Department (Type). Series (in Language). Vol. Volume. Others (Evening ed.). Place: Publisher. p. page. arXiv:ArXiv. ASIN ASIN. Bibcode:Bibcode. doi:10.DOI. ISBN Isbn. ISSN Issn. JFM JFM. JSTOR Jstor. LCCN LCCN. MR MR. OCLC OCLC. OSTI OSTI. PMC PMC. PMID PMID. RFC RFC. SSRN SSRN. Zbl ZBL. Id. Archived from the original (Format) on Archivedate. Retrieved Accessdate – via Via. Quote {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help); |page= has extra text (help); |volume= has extra text (help); Check |arxiv= value (help); Check |asin-tld= value (help); Check |asin= value (help); Check |bibcode= length (help); Check |doi= value (help); Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help); Check |issn= value (help); Check |jfm= value (help); Check |jstor= value (help); Check |lccn= value (help); Check |mr= value (help); Check |oclc= value (help); Check |osti= value (help); Check |pmc= value (help); Check |pmid= value (help); Check |rfc= value (help); Check |ssrn= value (help); Check |zbl= value (help); Check date values in: |accessdate=, |date=, and |archivedate= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help); More than one of |pages=, |at=, and |page= specified (help); Unknown parameter |agency= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |chapterlink= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |coauthor= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |doi_inactivedate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysource= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |notracking= ignored (|no-tracking= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |titlelink= ignored (|title-link= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |transcript= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |transcripturl= ignored (help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link)
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The "volume=x" will unbold when 5 or more characters. The correct placement for date in {cite_book} has only 2 styles: for date to follow author/editor, or when only "title=" to precede the page-number. The placement of parameter "others=" is a major issue, such as for name of illustrator. So, I have changed Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox for CitationClass "book" to show "others=" before the edition data as in {cite_book/old}, but for CitationClass "journal" to display "others=" after authors/editors and before the title as in {cite_journal/old}. I think that was the only major problem, and then {cite_book} should be ready to transition to Lua. -Wikid77 19:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Cite book does not support the periodical parameters, and I can't see the need. It does support chapter, which interacts badly with periodical:
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | "Chapter". Title. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
|
| Sandbox | "Chapter". Title. 7 June 2012. p. 163. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
|
--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
- Suggest to ignore illogical combinations: At this stage in transitioning to use Lua, I think we need to ignore the billions of illogical combinations of parameters, where it is unusual for a user to specify a periodical name, with article "title=" and then insist "chapter=" as well. We are currently past the point where changing Module:Citation/CS1, to fix one problem, is very likely to break another feature, among billions of parameter combinations. I did not design the overall Lua module, and I would have strongly suggested the Lua version should have closely mirrored Citation/core with 23 fork driver functions, rather than try to force the one Lua module to, internally, mimic the actions of 23 forks all combined into a mass of multiple if-conditions to block interactions among all the forks combined into the same logic flow. However, the original Lua module was even more complex and tried to combine those 23 forks, plus the Vancouver Vcite format, plus some {smallcaps} options of other cite formats, and the nightmare of instant "creeping featurism" has been the result. Also, note that Lua only allows 200 variable names within a single function, so there is a limit to having more parameters, and currently the multiple alias spellings are folded into a single variable name each. I am still worried that too many tangent issues will delay the release of the Lua-based templates. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Bibcode Colon, and the separators following various IDs
Omit the colon in "Bibcode:Bibcode" data: For option "bibcode=" there is a spurious colon added in the Lua version (during last year?). Other than that, I think the {cite_journal} users will be happy to have 6x faster cites in the medical/science articles. See: Pneumonia, Cancer, Cystic fibrosis:
- Run: {{#invoke:CiteConversionTest|test|Cancer}}
Most journal cites look almost identical in format with the Lua version. Like an echo. Like an echo. Everything else seems good to go. I think many scientists will not even notice the Lua version is formatting the {cite_journal} data. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not actually sure it is accidental. If you look at the separators following the Lua identifiers, we see that:
- arXiv, Bibcode, and doi use colon (":")
- ASIN, ISBN, ISSN, JFM, JSTOR, LCCN, MR, OCLC, OSTI, PMC, PMID, RFC, SSRN, and Zbl use space (" ")
- I could easily believe that someone wanted to use space after all of the uppercase ones and ":" after all the mixed case ones, but somehow missed Zbl.
- The only difference between Lua and the older templates right now is that Bibcode was moved from using a space to using a colon.
- So, we have several possible options.
- We could leave the configuration as is.
- We could revert Bibcode to use space, matching the current templates, but leaving doi and arXiv as the odd ducks.
- We could convert Zbl to use ":", so all mixed case IDs use colon and all uppercase IDs use space.
- We could convert all of them to use ":" as a separator.
- We could convert all of them to use space as a separator.
- Personally, I think the choice of separators here is pretty unimportant, and none of these options would bother me, but if people have strong feelings one way or the other, it might be good to share. Dragons flight (talk) 19:04, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
- I am also ambivalent. The stand-alone {{Bibcode}} uses a colon. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:15, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Transition Phase-6: Cite_web to Lua
As the 6th phase (of 9 major steps), we are ready for {cite_web} next. I think some editors are concerned that their "favorite" cite templates have not been transitioned yet, so we need to upgrade faster, to quicken most edit-previews. I have created typical testcases:
- Module_talk:Citation/CS1/test/web - testcases similar to {cite_news}
Again, based on the corrections and success of prior phases, each next phase becomes less risky because the one Lua Module:Citation/CS1 runs 99% the same for all cases. The transition of {cite_news} to Lua, on 19 March 2013, quickened many major pop-culture articles to edit-preview, or reformat, within 19 seconds (over 20% faster). Next, the transition of {cite_journal}, on 23 March, ran even faster, because many medical/science articles use mostly {cite_journal}, with numerous slow PMID/PMC, doi or Bibcode parameters, and the speed improvement was 2.5x times faster for article edit-previews of many science articles. The more parameters used, the slower the cite, for Lua or especially markup. Also, there was a significant unlinking of Template:Citation/core afterward in another 114,000 pages, from the prior 1.74 million pages to 1.65 million, where the only cite templates in use had been {cite_journal} or also {cite_news}, as unlinked now. In this next, massive, transition phase, {cite_web} affects almost every remaining wp:CS1-style article, to rapidly quicken 1.6 million articles to speed most articles for edit-preview within 3-8 seconds. Expect almost 1 million articles to delink {Citation/core}. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- Has the pdf export bug been sorted yet. We were asked to hold back until it was.--Salix (talk): 20:20, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Completed -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Transition for Cite Book
Rather than following Wikid77's schedule, I'd prefer to convert {{cite book}} to Lua before {{cite web}}. Firstly, cite book has 400k uses rather than 1.3M for cite web, and I think it is better to work our way up to the really large one so we catch any additional issues. Secondly, I've already spent the time working up a set of test cases for cite book, Module talk:Citation/CS1/test/book, including fixing a couple of new bugs that hadn't been caught during the prior iterations. I think we are probably ready to convert {{cite book}} today, assuming that no one can point to any additional unresolved problems. By contrast, I haven't yet studied any cite web testcases, so I'm not personally confident on whether or not there are still additional bugs for that case. Dragons flight (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- This sounds fine to me. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:51, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- Avoid delays for superstitious fears: Sometimes, it can be difficult to make progress when dwelling on superstitions about user concerns, and the fear of making "mistakes" while delaying the deployment of improved templates. Always try to prioritize the cost/benefit analysis, to balance the delayed benefits which outweigh the cost of potential incompatible changes. Because {cite_web} is very similar to {cite_news} (but without "newspaper=" or "periodical="), and 99% of the Lua-based cites share the same Module:Citation/CS1, then in effect, the testing for {cite_news} already tested the majority of features for {cite_web}. Meanwhile, almost 4,900 articles will be improved when {cite_web} is transitioned to Lua, to no longer blank the "separator=" option, to cause run-together cite parameters in the References section of those 4,900 pages. More than 25,000 articles will then display the singular page "p. nn" to fix the common typo "pp. nn". Also, the Lua cites are restoring the COinS metadata, into 1.8 million articles, for processing by User:DASHBot to update dead-link URL address links. After {cite_web} is updated, then there is the need to restore the COinS metadata into Template:Citation/core, which can afford the extra 20% slower COinS processing because {Citation/core} will be only rarely used, after delinking from almost 1 million pages once {cite_web} is upgraded. Also, long-awaited enhancements to {Citation/core} can be added, even though slower, because the Lua-based cites will reduce the overall reformat time. Until {cite_web} is transitioned to Lua, then the required changes to {Citation/core} would trigger reformatting of all 1.6 million pages, which is likely to cause users to ask why Wikipedia is running so slow again. Hence, we need to avoid changing Module:Citation/CS1 continually, and instead, try to batch a set of changes in the /sandbox version and wait until several issues are collected, and then update Citation/CS1 for minor changes, combined, in a single update. In cases of emergency, then {cite_book/old} or {cite_web/old} could be used to provide the prior formatting, until all related changes are collected within the Lua /sandbox version for installation in the live Citation/CS1. Prioritize whether a problem can be handled by using {cite_web/old} versus a Lua update which will reformat over 800,000 pages for those small changes, at this point. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- "Superstitious", really? Every round of this I've personally found a few more bugs not caught in the previous round. In addition to that, I woke up today to find another half-dozen new bug reports from other users. Lua is an unambiguous improvement for performance and also includes many formatting bug fixes, but that doesn't mean we should rush it into deployment without studying each major version for possible regressions. You've complained several times now that this deployment is taking too long. Frankly, I've started to find those complaints a bit annoying. For a project like this where the number of deployed uses is very large and the set of possible configurations is too enormous to comprehensively validate, I think we have actually been moving quite quickly over the last couple weeks. You are perfectly free to try and convince some other admin to move more quickly, but as long as I am the one actually doing the installation, then I plan to move at a pace that I am comfortable with. In the mean time, your help reporting, analyzing, and fixing bugs would be appreciated. Dragons flight (talk) 16:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- No way to thank people enough: I am sorry when being so busy, I don't even have time for proper explanations. Even trying to thank you, and Gadget850, for sacrificing the prior weeks to test and update the markup and Lua versions to match, cannot adequately emphasize the impact of the cite-transition efforts, as one of the greatest performance improvements in the history of Wikipedia. The profound impact is not just the instant fixes of over 100,000 clerical errors (such as "Inc.." or awkward "pp." for singular page), nor the 6x faster edit-preview of citation sections, nor even the re-addition of the COinS metadata to reconnect dead-link sources to archive URLs, but the overall impact is the system-wide reduction in resource usage, to quicken most major articles as reformatting 2x-3x faster. If the Top 1000 articles formerly needed 5 hours to reformat, then those can be re-displayed now, in perhaps just over 1 hour. Also, the Lua-based cites will be the "crowning achievement" in the initial transition to Lua (for both the speed impact as well as supporting over 430 parameter options). However, there is always the potential for complaints, not just for overlooked discrepancies, but also for people asking why the miraculous transition did not happen sooner. The old adage warns, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil", even if 1.6 million wheels must wait before being allowed to move faster. Hence, it is important to keep the overall transition effort moving forward. After {cite_web} has been transitioned to Lua, then {Citation/core} will be delinked from nearly 1 million pages, and any further upgrades can reformat those million pages 2x-3x times faster with Lua. Most likely, with the upcoming 2x-faster Scribunto upgrade, then Lua cites will be considered as speeding most major articles to edit-preview beyond 3x faster. At this point, any new features introduced into the wp:CS1 cites can be deployed, and reformatted, into those 1.8 million pages as 3x faster than ever before. Only the minor {cite_*} forks, among 23 variations, will continue to use {Citation/core}, and their slow reformatting (14/second) will become negligible. Anyway, I am hoping more editors will come to help to discuss concerns, and offer better solutions, but we do not want to "stop the presses" to focus on only the "squeaky wheels" among the rest of 1.8 million, waiting to move faster and cleaner. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- NO. DON'T force unfinished software on users. this isn't a playground or test bed for your favorite software projects. clean out the bugs before you present software as production-ready. this nonsense about "superstitions" (?) has to stop. this is insulting to editors who try to workaround your fumbles and to readers who get inconsistent presentation. you can either do it right or you can't. i'm sure editors won't appreciate spending valuable time to beta-test your code. typical is the nonsense about "changing" the script "continually". are you suggesting that bugs be left in the software just so you can move on to something else? or the nonsense about going back to the old system as a "patch" on an as-needed basis? where did you get these ideas about software development? this is getting ridiculous. but i can see that you are another one who thinks that buggy software is better if it presents the bugs faster. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 12:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- Lua version is greatly improved and tested, not buggy playground: There have been extensive tests of the Lua-based cites, for over 6 months, which also show the numerous improvements compared to the prior markup-based cites. The word "superstitious" refers to the idea that the Lua-based cites are worse, rather than many times better than the markup cites. Many problems with the prior cite templates have been fixed with the Lua version, such as removing double-dots ".." after "Inc.." or author initials. There are almost 5,000 articles which incorrectly omit the dots (or commas) between parameters, and the Lua version will fix those articles as well. Over 25,000 articles will be fixed to show "p." (rather than "pp.") for a singular page number. Beyond all those improvements, the COinS metadata will be restored, in 1.8 million pages, for DASHbot to automatically insert the archive URL where a dead-link URL has been used. The fact that the Lua-based cites run almost 9x faster than the markup-based cites, from last year, was not even mentioned in the above paragraph, but that is another improvement, where users will be able to insert and preview new citations 9x times faster than before. So the Lua-based cites will help our editors improve the appearance and addition of citation footnotes. I am sorry that you imagined the Lua version was "buggy software" and I hope I have explained how the opposite is true. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- and on what do you base your statement that lua "is many times better"? do you have any real-world, objective, properly benchmarked PROOF? because if not, this is just your particular "superstition". but this is not the point, lua is a given. i'm just illustrating how fantastic your "logic" is.
- you misrepresent behavioral (human) errors, like the mistaken use of "Inc.", as coding errors of the markup version. the first line of defence against behavioral errors is proper, unambiguous documentation written in simple, non-technical language, that anticipates such problems.
- similarly for the use of "pages". but maybe you think that documentation is not part of a software project. now it seems that lua can better handle the string manipulations involved, but this should still be a last-ditch solution.
- you misrepresent the re-entry of COInS functionality, as if it was an invention of the lua system or as if its previous implementation was breaking something. the first is clearly not the case, the second was never proven.
- as for your assertion that the referred-to implementation was not buggy, let's just say that you are being funny. but only in order to avoid much stronger language.
- afaic all these statements of yours raise more unflattering questions regarding the implementation of this important project. thankfully others involved seem to have a better grasp of things and are more responsive and reality-based. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 01:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
- The Lua templates are working quite well. We have done a lot of regression testing, but with our small team some of the lesser used parameters and a lot of odd uses were missed. As we deploy the Lua templates, these issues are being reported and are quickly resolved. We welcome the reports of any specific problems. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- you shouldn't welcome reports of problems. production code shouldn't have any. imo, you clearly had not done enough testing. if you insist on calling editors' prerogative (in their efforts to make content understandable) "odd uses" then imo you should not be involved in software that is there to assist humans. it is looking at it from the wrong perspective. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 01:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
- Aiming for Zarro boogs, are we?
- you shouldn't welcome reports of problems. production code shouldn't have any. imo, you clearly had not done enough testing. if you insist on calling editors' prerogative (in their efforts to make content understandable) "odd uses" then imo you should not be involved in software that is there to assist humans. it is looking at it from the wrong perspective. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 01:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Completed -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Transition for Cite Web
I think we are about ready for the big one. I would like to transition {{cite web}}, used on 1.3 million pages, later today. The current test cases page for cite web is Module talk:Citation/CS1/test/web. After this one, the vast majority of citations on Wikipedia will be using Lua. Dragons flight (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- {{cite web}} has now been deployed using Lua. Dragons flight (talk) 00:53, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Deployment of {cite_web} for mega-scale improvements: Thank you for transitioning Template:Cite_web to Lua, which is currently fixing over 4,900 articles which had omitted the dot "." separator between thousands of parameters, and correcting the singular page "pp.n" to show "p." in over 25,000 articles, plus fixing "inc.." etc. I have verified the instant 6x-faster cite speed improvement, when editing pop-culture articles which edit-preview, now, within 7 seconds, as 2x-3x faster. This focus on mega-scale improvements is needed to avoid tangent delays to debate rare parameters used in less than a 1-in-10,000 fraction of all cites. The articles currently re-edited, by the "101,000" daily editors, will reduce the reformat backlog of the 1.3 million {cite_web} pages, among the 1.8 million {cite_*} pages. Overall reformatting has been somewhat slow, where {Citation/core} has not been further delinked much yet in the past 15 hours, despite many thousands of pages using only {cite_web}. The category for lone accessdate (no URL) has increased by over 12% to exceed 45,590 pages. Also, perhaps 10% of articles might not delink for over 4 days, when the reformatting is purposely delayed to balance the server's wp:Job_queue. However, we should focus on transitioning Template:Citation (style wp:CS2), as the next mega-scale effort, to revise a million cite parameters as used in "95,261" pages, many without {cite_*} due to {citation} showing the comma separator, as exclusive citation style wp:CS2, but still showing typos as singular page "pp.n" and running 6x slower w/o Lua. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Completed -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Cite web, url, and archiveurl
It has come to my attention that for {{cite web}}, specifying archiveurl= without a url= is historically allowed:
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)
|
While for all other citation template it appears to be an error:
| Wikitext | {{cite journal
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help)
|
So, is this behavior we need to replicate, and if so, why does it work this way? Dragons flight (talk) 03:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- That uses the same markup as the other templates, and the error check is in core. That is a bug in the old version, but I don't see the problem right off. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- When 'url' is fed into 'IncludedWorkURL' then {{citation/core}} is not throwing the error as intended. This affects other templates such as {{cite conference}}. This is a bug in core, but I will have to dig into it later to see what is going on. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:25, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
deadurl = no
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Wikitext | {{cite journal
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
deadurl = yes
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite web}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Wikitext | {{cite journal
|
|---|---|
| Live | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | House of Lords (21 November 2000). "Science and Technology - Sixth Report". UK Parliment. {{cite journal}}: |archive-url= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
|
I've updated all of these cases to give behavior consistent with the preexisting templates. However, I'm not really sure that setting up the error handling in this way makes sense. Dragons flight (talk) 05:02, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- The old core checking has a bug as noted above. All templates should use consistent checking. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- If a URL is dead, but an archive has already been provided, I'm not actually sure why it is ever an error to omit the original URL. All of the widely used archive services record the original URL, so it would still be available that way, but having a link there when we are confident that it won't work seems rather pointless. Dragons flight (talk) 18:38, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict):It is better I think to be consistent across all of the CS1 cites. Treating
{{cite web}}differently from all of the others just makes for ugly code and editors who will complain about this cite format being different from that format. Make{{cite web}}the same as all of the others.
- Beware triggering new error messages in thousands of articles: At this point, each new error message should be considered as a "retroactive law" to upset prior use of parameters. I think most readers would consider a page "ugly" which contains new error messages formerly not there before the Lua cites. Instead, a hidden maintenance category can be used to determine the extent of the supposed error conditions. For the use of "archiveurl=" without "url=" there has been the concern of promoting one URL, versus the other URL, in nations where some web-archive sites are considered to be a clear copy-vio of the original webpage, and linking the archive without the original URL could be considered favoritism towards the "copyvio" website. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Trans title with no title
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Doe, John (1965). Neverland: Foreign Books. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
|
| Sandbox | Doe, John (1965). Neverland: Foreign Books. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
|
Noting a bug. Dragons flight (talk)
- Agree- the old behavior is a bug. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, I would say that both sides are a bug. We shouldn't be ignoring translated titles when given without a title as that causes information to vanish from preexisting citations. However, it also isn't good to have only translated titles specified without specifying the original title. My intention is to fix the display format to include the translated title and add a tracking category for translations lacking original text. Dragons flight (talk) 15:42, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I've added the translated title back into the display, but tagged it with Category:Pages with citations using translated terms without the original when there is a translation but no original. Dragons flight (talk) 16:24, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- That seems better, to keep what they show. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Transition Phase-7: Template:Citation
The next major cite is Template:Citation, used repeatedly in over 95,000 pages. Although technically called "wp:CS2" I created the Template:Citation/lua to use CS1's Module:Citation/CS1 as thinking it functions as {Citation/core} for both CS1/CS2 styles, so it could be claimed that CS2 is a variation under CS1, and hence covered by the same Lua module. I just wanted to avoid Vancouver style cites, already handled quickly by Template:Vcite. Anyway, the first minor problems are:
- The {cite compare} needs to handle "mode=citation".
- Parameter "accessdate=" is hidden when "doi=" but no "url=" parameter.
The general format is:
The results of {cite_compare} show:
| Wikitext | {{citation
|
|---|---|
| Live | Doe, John (29 March 2013), Try {citation}, vol. II (2nd ed.), London: Acme, doi:10.555 {{citation}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check |doi= value (help)
|
| Sandbox | Doe, John (29 March 2013), Try {citation}, vol. II (2nd ed.), London: Acme, doi:10.555 {{citation}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check |doi= value (help)
|
These are the first concerns. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- I added some redirects to allow {{cite compare}} to work as expected. Dragons flight (talk) 17:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Vancouver is not well used. The editor who was the main proponent is inactive and I suspect it will not grow past the current articles. Bottom line: don't worry about updating it. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Creating /test/citation testcases: Since {citation} looks like {cite_book} with commas, I have created Module_talk:Citation/CS1/test/citation from the /test/book page, but adding "coauthors=" data. Again, if anyone asks "Why named /CS1?" then reply that CS2 is a citation sub-style of CS1, from the days when they were both based on {Citation/core}. -Wikid77 00:39, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
Citation and page / pages
ditto All of the new CS1 templates are set to the reverse (page= overrides pages=). Is it acceptable to do the same with {{citation}}? Dragons flight (talk) 17:27, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- It's a mistake to have both set (and articles that make that mistake should be tossed into a maintenance category). My guess is that most instances of this happen with a book where pages= is (incorrectly) the total number of pages of the book, and page= is the actual citation, so for this case having page= take priority is correct. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:37, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ditto. And the old CS1 templates have the order of hierarchy of 'page', 'pages', 'at'. -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
The Mysterious Place
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Jones, John (1956). Written at Seattle, Washington. My Book. New York: Books 'R' US. |
| Sandbox | Jones, John (1956). Written at Seattle, Washington. My Book. New York: Books 'R' US. |
| Specify both place= and publication-place= in cite book | |
| Wikitext | {{cite book
|
|---|---|
| Live | Jones, John (1956). My Book. Seattle, Washington: Books 'R' US. |
| Sandbox | Jones, John (1956). My Book. Seattle, Washington: Books 'R' US. |
| Specify only place= in cite book | |
| Wikitext | {{citation
|
|---|---|
| Live | Jones, John (1956), written at Seattle, Washington, My Book, New York: Books 'R' US |
| Sandbox | Jones, John (1956), written at Seattle, Washington, My Book, New York: Books 'R' US |
| Specify both place= and publication-place= in citation | |
| Wikitext | {{citation
|
|---|---|
| Live | Jones, John (1956), My Book, Seattle, Washington: Books 'R' US |
| Sandbox | Jones, John (1956), My Book, Seattle, Washington: Books 'R' US |
| Specify only place= in citation | |
So {{citation}} has an extra field place= that means the same as publication-place= if publication-place= is not specified, but has a different meaning if both are specified. To make things worse, the old templates also allow both parameters, but historically place= overrides publication-place= while we are presently doing the reverse.
Given this situation, I'm tempted to make all of the templates match the behavior of these parameters in {{citation}}. Any thoughts / comments? Dragons flight (talk) 17:57, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- Give in to the temptation. -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:27, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- agreed that "place"/"publication-place" should follow the "date"/"publication-date" convention. but reserve the use of colons for "publication-place" only. otherwise it (a) may cause people to confuse author location with publisher location (b) may undermine confidence in the citation system, especially if nit-pickers fail to verify the presumed publisher location detail. 70.19.122.39 (talk) 00:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Migration for Citation template
I have gone ahead and migrated {{citation}} to use Lua. Test cases can be seen as Module talk:Citation/CS1/test/citation. This is the last of the major citation templates (with 95k page uses). Dragons flight (talk) 23:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
span class="reference-accessdate" exposed
span class="reference-accessdate" is exposed if 'publisher' is linked and ends with a period:
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |sandbox= ignored (help)
|
| Sandbox | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |sandbox= ignored (help)
|
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. |
| Sandbox | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. |
| Wikitext | {{cite web
|
|---|---|
| Live | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. |
| Sandbox | Lavrinc, Damon (2010-03-29). "Hennessey Venom GT: A $600k mid-engine Cobra for the 21st Century". Autoblog. Weblogs, Inc. Retrieved 2010-03-29. |
-- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Need to move dot '.' before span-tag: I think the easiest fix would be to move the 'sepc' variable to lead the access-date to avoid any similar chopped span tags "span xx>". The Lua function safejoin() looks past the span-tag in "<span...>. Retrieved" and treated the dot '.' as being adjacent to the prior end-dot data, to chop the lead '<' off the span-tag. I have triggered "sandbox=yes" in the first example above, to check the fix. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Moving the dot is not really an acceptable option. The dot needs to be included in the span in order for "reference-accessdate" to properly perform the purpose described under "accessdate" at {{cite web}}. Otherwise, everyone who follows the directions given at that page would start seeing double dots all the time. I've fixed the code to actually remove the dot from inside the span under these circumstances. Dragons flight (talk) 18:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Fixed -- Gadget850 (Ed) talk 20:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)