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Sprutt

Sprutt (talk · contribs) topic banned indefinitely. NW (Talk) 18:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Sprutt

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Grandmaster 08:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Sprutt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Final decision
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. November 30, 2012 [1]
  2. December 1, 2012
  3. December 13, 2012
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
  1. Warned on June 9, 2012 by Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
  2. Warned on November 30, 2012 by Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
  3. Warned on December 1, 2012 by Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Sprutt repeatedly violated WP:AGF and WP:NPA during this discussion at WP:RSN despite repeated warnings to refrain from personal attacks. He is well aware of AA2 discretionary sanctions, but this does not stop him from commenting on contributor instead of the content. For his latest personal comment Sprutt received a warning from another user: [2], but I'm not sure that would put an end to violations of WP:NPA by Sprutt, as previous warnings had no effect. Grandmaster 08:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that this is not a place to discuss content disputes, but I want to demonstrate that I did not provide false info about the article of Ronald Suny. This is what Suny wrote in his article:

An angry crowd surrounded me as I was leaving the hall, shouting that I was davejan (a "traitor"in Armenian). My first response was to shout back that I was a scholar and an Armenian, only to be told that I was no scholar and no Armenian (hai ches). Security guards took me away to avoid further trouble. Personal attacks continued in the press, and a year later a book appeared in Erevan bitterly denouncing Western scholarship on Armenia, particularly my own work.

I think it is pretty clear from the above that Suny was almost physically attacked in Yerevan, otherwise there would have been no need for the security guards to take him away "to avoid further trouble". One can imagine what would have happened to him if there were no security guards there. In any case, this does not excuse personal attacks by Sprutt, and he failed to demonstrate a single instance of me providing "false quotes". Once again, I would like to see an evidence to support his claim that I cited false quotes, otherwise I expect an apology for the false accusations, personal attacks and bad faith assumptions. Grandmaster 18:33, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that there was intention in Yerevan to attack Suny physically. "Further trouble" is no evidence for intended physical abuse. You fabricated this in order to add a dose of drama to your very tendentiousness remarks, hence my comments. Sprutt (talk) 00:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The text from the article by Suny is provided above for everyone to see. I think the admins will give their assessment whether there was fabrication in my statement or not. But your personal attacks and insults were not limited just to that. You accused me of trying to "push Azerbaijani nationalist propaganda" [3], "acting in bad faith": [4], "demagoguery and needless hoopla": [5], engaging in "fabrications in his attempt to fight his nationalist war against Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia" [6]. I believe you have a lot of explanations to make. Grandmaster 04:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Grandmaster confuses two things: personal attacks and qualification of professional conduct. Personal attacks, more properly called insults, are directed against personal characteristics (e.g. Racial, sexist, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, sexual, or other epithets or threats Bold text(such as against people with disabilities, as per Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F). Qualification of the quality of professional demeanor are no personal attacks or insults. I never called you an idiot, or a demagogue or a fabricator. I expressed opinions about the low quality of your remarks. These are no personal attacks, and not covered under WP:NPA. Sprutt (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Check carefully your link to WP:NPA. It says inter alia that a personal attack are "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence". It also says that the examples cited there are not exhaustive, and "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done". I don't see how your comments cited above could be in line with Wikipedia civility rules. Grandmaster 19:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[7]

Discussion concerning Sprutt

Statement by Sprutt

This is not the first time when Grandmaster files a frivolous report when he disagrees with his fellow discussants, and runs out of arguments. This is a bogus request, and no violations took place. There are no personal attacks in my comments. Grandmaster will do everyone a favor if he familiarizes himself what personal attack is. This information is in the subsection of the WP:NPA discussion, in the paragraph titled What is considered to be a personal attack [8]. Grandmaster provoked a discussion along the lines "my-country's-info-is-better-than-your-country's-info" which received criticism of involved third party participants in the discussion [9]. Grandmaster's habit of filing false alarm request and using AA2 sanctions as a tool of attacking his opponents shall be curbed by the community.

Grandmaster provided false information that Ronald Suny was "almost physically attacked" [10] in Yerevan. His article "Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations" discusses a rather tense debates on contentious subject but contains no such information.

My very best wishes asked me to provide evidence supporting claims in the discussion about Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia [11]:

  • (a) Accusation that Grandmaster "engaged in fabrications." There is no evidence that there was intention in Yerevan to attack R. Suny physically. "Further trouble" that is in the text of the paper referred to by Grandmaster provides no evidence for any intended physical abuse. Grandmaster fabricated (i.e. manipulated the meaning of the passage) this in order to add a extra dose of drama to his very tendentious remarks, hence my comment. The other instance of the use of the word fabrication is my agreement with User:MarshallBagramyan who suggested that "The controversy surrounding the examples cited by Grandmaster are fabricated by himself entirely and it's unfortunate that his argument is receiving more attention than is truly warranted" here [12].
  • (b) Accusation that Grandmaster "uses fake quotes." Under a closer inspection it turned out that Grandmaster did not cite Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia directly [13] - as I originally thought - but pointed to Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia references in WP. This is a good faith technical mistake on my part. My apologies to Grandmaster.
  • (c) Accusation that Grandmaster was "the head of a coordinated tag team." This comes from evidence provided in this discussion [14], and more directly here [15] and here [16], where Grandmaster is discussed as the head of the 26 Baku Commissars tag team. Here Grandmaster the ArbCom directly accuses Grandmaster of being the coordinator of the above-mentioned distribution list [17]. Sprutt (talk) 03:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also take a note on Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#Recurring_attacks. As I mentioned my comments are not personal attacks, but even if someone is misinterpreting them in that light, please take a note of remedies suggested in this subsection. The passage says clearly: In most circumstances, problems with personal attacks can be resolved if editors work together and focus on content, and immediate administrator action is not required. A ban from an entire area of discussion simply for calling someone's disruptive misinterpretations as "fabrication" is a draconian measure totally unprecedented in WP. Sprutt (talk) 04:51, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster quotations miss out context, and thus mis-characterize others' remarks

Grandmaster quotations removes the context, and thus mis-characterize remarks of other discussants. He carefully selects single words or phrases and quotes them without the discussion in which they were used. In my comments I gave my reasons why his behavior presents fabrication or demagoguery. Grandmaster also confuses two things: personal attacks and critical qualification of professional conduct. Personal attacks, more properly called insults, are directed against personal characteristics (e.g. Racial, sexist, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, sexual, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities, as per Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F). Or they are threats. Assessment of the quality of professional demeanor and quality or possible origin of Grandmaster's biases are no personal attacks or insults. I never insulted or belittled my opponents, including Grandmaster, in order to attack his/their claims or invalidate their arguments. I never directly called Grandmaster an idiot, or a demagogue or a fabricator. I never threatened Grandmaster. I expressed opinions about the low quality of his remarks and his tactics to manipulate the discussion. These are no personal attacks, and not covered under WP:NPA. Sprutt (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zimmarod: a witch-hunt by WP:AGF violators?

I don't see any serious misconduct by Sprutt at all. There are people insisting on something "serious" but the evidence is not there, especially meriting banning from AA area. For what? Sprutt pointed to grossly incorrect interpretation by Grandmaster on which his line of attack in favor of banning Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia was based. This is a violation by Grandmaster to begin with. Zimmarod (talk) 19:37, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Grandmaster is in gross violation of WP:AGF himself as he accuses me of a connection with someone else. Should I imply in return that he and My best wishes are a coordinated team? Is this a witch-hunt? Zimmarod (talk) 20:27, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from incorrect section. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC) This is ludicrous, and grossly unfair . If you compare who was topic banned from AA you would come up with those engaged in persistent edit warring, or racial attacks. Nothing remotely similar is implied for Sprutt. Sprutt is a year-old account and I see nothing objectionable in his demeanor for that quite long period of time. User:Grandmaster was indeed head of a tag group and a distribution list in Russian WP, coming under sanctions for coordinated editing and harassment in RuWiki.[reply]

An administrator may ask Sprutt to be more moderate and argumentative in the various forums but topic ban is hell of a bias for this case. My question of "why" would come with very strong and multiple question marks. Zimmarod (talk) 21:03, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by 517design

Grandmaster should be sanctioned for misusing AE requests for attempts to remove people out of his way whom he cannot cooperate with. I see nothing especially reproachable in Sprutt's conduct. I value his apology to Grandmaster. Sprutt appears to be a well-behaved account, and Grandmaster's insinuations are not convincing. I urge sysops to close this AE request cold turkey. 517design (talk) 19:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Sprutt

@Sprutt. Unfortunately, I must agree with Grandmaster: this is a serious personal attack by you, unless you can indeed provide any evidence (diffs please) of your claims (and claims by Marshal Bagramyan you tell?) made here. My very best wishes (talk) 17:10, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment is an inappropriate exaggeration. See for yourself what "Serious personal attack" is. Did I use racial, sexist, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, sexual, or other epithets, as per [18]? NO. Did I use someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views, as per [19]? Did I link to external attacks, harassment, or other material, for the purpose of attacking another editor, as per [20]? NO. Did I compare editors to Nazis, dictators, etc, as per [21]? NO. Did I use threats, including, threats of legal action, violence etc, as per [22]? NO! Anyway, see what Grandmaster did wrong. Sprutt (talk) 18:30, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You tell: "User:Grandmaster is engaged in fabrications ... He cites fake quotes... Grandmaster has been routinely accused - with evidence - of being the head of a coordinated tag team which attacks good edits and wages ridiculous nationalist wars in Wikipedia.". Hence, please provide diffs proving that Grandmaster was (a) "engaged in fabrications", (b) "cites fake quotes", and (c) "the head of a coordinated tag team". Thanks, My very best wishes (talk) 19:59, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have an impression that User:Meowy or other alternative accounts have something to do with this... My very best wishes (talk) 20:06, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To me also the appearance of Zimmarod (talk · contribs) at this page after more than 2 months of absence looks quite strange, especially considering that he and Sprutt created user accounts here almost simultaneously, Sprutt on 11 November 2011, and Zimmarod on 16 November 2011. Grandmaster 20:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Aha! My account and Sprutt's account were routinely checked multiple times on the matter sock-puppetry at the request of Grandmaster if I remember correctly. What I see here is a witch-hunt by a couple of individuals who are violators of WP:AGF, who are trying to get someone else prosecuted for violation of WP:AGF. Zimmarod (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I said nothing of sockpuppetry. Only that your appearance here looks a bit unusual. May I ask how you became aware of this request? Grandmaster 20:31, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am an increasingly busy and don't find enough time to edit but I am monitoring discussions in the AA area, especially those on Nagorno-Karabakh, and I noticed that your behavior is getting increasingly disturbing. Zimmarod (talk) 20:47, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All right then. But it looks like from your very short edit history you appear ones every few months, exclusively to take part in AE discussion, AfD or another dispute in AA area... My very best wishes (talk) 21:28, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Sprutt, for providing additional links and diffs [23]. Most of them are dated back to 2009 and belong to ruwiki. There is only one recent diff, but that one implicates MarshallBagramyan rather than anyone else. My very best wishes (talk) 04:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand. I agree with MarshallBagramyan's assessment that Grandmaster is fabricating things. In other words it is not only my opinion. And indeed one additional example of this tactics is his misinterpretation (manipulation/fabrication) of the article by Prof. Suny. I also issued an apology for my technical mistake regarding what I thought were quotations fro ASE. You over-dramatize the situation. Being part of a tag team is a violation too serious to have expiry date. Sprutt (talk) 04:41, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since Sprutt mentioned MarshallBagramyan and provided a diff to his comment, it would be really helpful if MarshallBagramyan explained how exactly I "fabricated controversies". In my opinion, this comment was quite inappropriate and escalated the tensions at that board. Grandmaster 05:05, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fabricate in this context means exaggerate for the purpose of misleading the discussion. Sprutt (talk) 16:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Sprutt

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Comment by Zimmarod moved to proper section. Please reply in your own section. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC) [reply]

Agree, though I would not be opposed to sanctioning even beyond that. There is reasonable and professional conduct on that page from many editors; Sprutt is not one of them. To me, it is quite evident that Sprutt is not approaching this topic area with his or her biases sufficiently left at the door. NW (Talk) 18:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Absent any objections, I propose that a topic ban be enacted in 24 hours. The discussion above has failed to convince me that it is not needed (quite the opposite actually). NW (Talk) 19:41, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed; after thinking about this, an indef topic ban still seems the best option. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:51, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Brews ohare

Brews ohare will be issued a final warning, logged to WP:ARBSL, that the topic ban covers all material reasonably and closely related to physics, regardless of what page such material is on. Brews ohare is further urged to request clarification from an uninvolved administrator (preferably one familiar with the case) or here at AE prior to beginning editing any material where its relation to the topic ban may be in question. Such clarification requests made in good faith will not be considered a violation of the ban. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Brews ohare

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 04:25, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:ARBSL#Motions, #7
Accordingly, the Committee topic-bans Brews ohare indefinitely from all pages of whatever nature about physics and physics-related mathematics, broadly construed
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 12 December 2012 Removing physics content from article
  2. 12 December 2012 Describing perfectly good physics as gobbledygook.

The ban was 'from all pages' I think to precisely cover this, the physics content of non-physics articles, so it is clearly covered. Not only is this against his ban but his tendentious arguing and editing despite his fundamental misunderstanding of it illustrates why he was banned in the first place.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

I don't know if a warning is required, but I on two recent occasions reminded him of the ban after editing that was close to the line:

  1. Warned on 16 November 2012 by JohnBlackburne (talk · contribs)
  2. Warned on 21 November 2012 by JohnBlackburne (talk · contribs)
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 04:25, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[24]


Discussion concerning Brews ohare

Statement by Brews ohare

As to the diffs brought as evidence in this case:

These diffs affect content in the article Free will, and are not about physics, but about clarity in presenting the topic of free will without confusing digressions. The digressions are Gobbledygook because they are not pertinent to the topic of Free will. Blackburne has elected to skew his descriptions of these edits to appear to be what they are not. Brews ohare (talk) 18:56, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If this proceeding should result in a site ban for week, as seems to be the proposal of some, it is unclear what lesson should be drawn. From past history and the present action, it is clear that Blackburne will search for every opportunity to do this again, on the slimmest of pretexts, and regardless of whether WP is served. Brews ohare (talk) 17:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphimblade: The quote you have supplied "Physical models offered at present are both deterministic and indeterministic, and are subject to interpretations of quantum mechanics - which themselves are being constrained by ongoing experimentation." was not a statement of mine, but was a quotation from the article Free will supplied here by Richardbrucebaxter.
I made no comment as to its accuracy, and began my arguments for its removal with the remark "Now, whether or not "physical models" are both deterministic and indeteriministic" is completely irrelevant here..." I went on to say " It contributes nothing to the presentation.."
My remarks here are directed simply at the relevance of this paragraph to the article Free will and make no statement about the merits or demerits of Richardbrucebaxter's claims about physics. It is a stretch to call such an argument of irrelevancy of a paragraph a "physics-related discussion".
Such detail may be tedious for you to examine, but it's needed for a true assessment.
In addition, I'd like you to bear in mind that this was part of an ordinary discussion of Free will, and there is no need here for intervention by Administrators to "set things on the right track", so to speak. Blackburne's intrusion here is simply as a busybody with no engagement in Free will or this discussion.
Seraphimblade, with a careful reading of this Gobbledygook? exchange, would you reconsider? Brews ohare (talk) 06:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seraphimblade: You say: "A reference to quantum mechanics is a clear and direct reference to a theory that is a major part of modern physics, and that means that editing or removing that reference is off limits to you, period."
Got it. I don't have to actually discuss physics to be off limits; off limits extends to any action involving names of physical theories or their vocabulary, whatever the context or purpose of those actions.
This restriction is very severe , especially with Blackburne looking over my shoulder. It appears I will have to avoid philosophy, engineering, mathematics, most science, and a good deal of history. Is all this really necessary or good for WP, or is this more akin to a Les Misérables type of strict enforcement in the Inspector Javert vein?. Brews ohare (talk) 21:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathsci: Yes, I mentioned string theory as an example of a physical theory. I did not discuss it. My total, complete, and exhaustive reference to this topic was: "For example, determinism phrased to accord with Newton's laws is not viable, but how about one phrased to fit string theory or multiverses?" You may be unaware that Determinism is a philosophical topic, not physics. According to your present opinion, if I mentioned Obama, that would be "politics-related". As already pointed out by others, this interpretation of a "physics-related" edit is extreme. I question the value to WP of such an approach.
BTW, and FYI, because you bring up my credentials, I have a PhD in physics from McGill University and worked as a physicist member of technical staff at Bell Laboratories for 23 years, publishing articles on phase transitions, electronic band structure and electron devices such as the MOSFET in technical journals such as Physical Review, Transactions on Electron Devices and Solid State Electronics. It speaks highly of WP that Blackburne has managed to have me excluded from contributing in these areas using exactly the tactics presented here. Brews ohare (talk) 15:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@EdJohnson: Ed, you are off point here. No-one doubts that I removed material related to physics from the philosophical discussion of Free will. Your long description of just why this physics is physics is beside the point. I seem to recall you had a previous issue of this kind with me when you failed to distinguish geometry from physics and smacked me for that one. Now its philosophy and physics. It is for these reasons that sanctions should not require judgment about content.
Deletion of a digression on physics from Free will is about its relevance to free will, not about physics. Brews ohare (talk) 18:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ed, you say: " If Brews would agree to avoid this in the future, this might be closed with no action. My assumption is that he will not negotiate, but I would be glad to be proven wrong."
I am not at all intransigent about this. If you can formulate what "this" is, I will avoid it. Brews ohare (talk) 19:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Physics includes anything with SI base units, so anything with a unit would fall in scope of a strict definition. So any edit with time (seconds), a length, a mass or weight, reference to light, color, sound, electricity or electro magnetic radiation, waves, pendulums, springs, levels, internal combustion, heat, thermodynamics, motion, rotation ... would be right out! Just because "quantum" is more esoteric than "second" -- which is, of course "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom" doesn't make it any less physics. NE Ent 22:05, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Brews ohare

As the entire scope of Wikipedia falls between Big Bang and Heat Death of the Universe, you can broadly construe a physics topic ban to include into a site ban if you're so inclined. The topic ban is about what pages they can edit, not what content -- Free will is not "about physics and physics-related mathematics," NE Ent 16:27, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All natural sciences, technology and philosophy (as we can see) are somehow related to physics. My very best wishes (talk) 04:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issue here is what "broadly construed" means.
It appears that any sentence in any article (including ones which are not specifically about physics or physical phenomena)which has any terms related to physics is being interpreted to be included - which may be stretching the concept of topic bans to their uttermost limits.
Posit a person quoting George Gnarph as saying "Like Galileo, I say Gnarphism is true and the sun still moves." If Georgen Gnarph's quote is not relevant to an article, the fact the qyite refers to physics "broadly construed" ought not make the physic topic ban applicable.
In short - the term "broadly construed" should mean "reasonably and substantially construed to be directly related to the subject of the topic ban", and not mean "uses any terms at all which a rubber-bander could stretch to include in the topic ban." Collect (talk) 12:41, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No. On the talk page, Brews ohare explicitly mentions quantum mechanics, string theory and the standard model. These are specialist parts of theoretical physics, not everyday terms. Mathsci (talk) 12:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, a physicist can not avoid discussing actual physical concepts, even when he is trying to write something about natural sciences, technology and philosophy. For someone like Brews this is basically a site ban. My personal suggestion would be to allow Brews editing Physics for a while and see how it goes, but this can not be decided here...My very best wishes (talk) 15:10, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On his user page Brews ohare does not describe himself as a physicist. Mathsci (talk) 15:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, he describes himself as an electrical engineer. It's not a particularly large leap from Kirchhoff's circuit laws to Maxwell's equations to modern quantum electrodynamics. As usual, xkcd is on point here. NW (Talk) 19:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, he descibes himself as an electrical engineer. There is a huge gulf between that subject and what is required to master rudimentary string theory, even prior to more recent developments in M-theory. Mathsci (talk) 01:53, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Boodlepounce is puzzled. The sanctions states the Committee topic-bans Brews ohare indefinitely from all pages of whatever nature about physics and physics-related mathematics, broadly construed It seems clear to Boodlepounce that this is a ban from certain pages; that the ban extends to all spaces not just article space; that the pages are defined by being about physics and physics-related mathematics; and that the construction of the the defninition of physics and physics-related mathematics is to be broad. The complaint is about edits to Free will and Talk:Free will. Boodlepounce cannot see that this page is "about physics and physics-related mathematics" however broad the construction. Other complaints levied against the accused here are unrelated to this sanction. If the Committee had intended a topic-ban on content about physics, they could and would have said so -- Boodlepounce assumes that the Committee meant what it said and said what it meant. If the Committee had intended to impose restrictions on editing or conduct related to physics, again it would have said so. It is clear to Boodlepounce at least that there is no vioplation of the Committee's topic ban here. Complaints about other aspects of these edits are misplaced and should be taken up elsewhere. Boodlepounce (talk) 12:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

It seems pretty obvious that Brews ohare violated their topic ban. A topic ban means that the editor cannot make any edits regarding that topic regardless of article. As soon as they begin discussing the topic, they have violated their ban. The two diffs provided in this RfE are extremely damning. Who could possibly argue that the physical universe and quantum mechanics aren't part of physics? I don't see any problem implementing the 1 week block or EdJohnston's suggestion that Brews ohare agree to avoid this in the future without action. If Brews ohare believes that the topic ban is without merit or is no longer necessary, they are free to request that the topic ban be lifted. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the only legitimate exceptions to topic bans are obvious vandalism and dispute resolutions involving the ban itself. No such justifications have been offered and Wikipedia:Banning policy is very clear. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved Count Iblis

Since this has nothing whatsoever to do with the original speed of light case, it is a violation of an extention of an extention of an extention of an extention of extention of an extention of an extention of an extention of an extention of an extention of an extention of extention of an extention of an extention of an extention of sanctions that were designed to deal with too much talk on the speed of light talk page, I think the best thing is to start a new ArbCom case. 23:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment by I-have-commented-on-this-topic-before Enric Naval

The clarification has been archived. The arbitrators agree that the edit was a violation of the topic ban, that the topic ban applies to any physics-related edit in any page, and that they don't need to make a motion.

Personally, I find that the original topic ban was a bit confusing for people with an engineering mindset. The wording "all pages of whatever nature about physics and physics-related mathematics, broadly construed." will be parsed by any methodical person as "all pages" not as "all edits". And engineers are trained to be methodical. I suppose that arbcom needs to writeup a non-confusing wording and use it in later cases. So, maybe give him a formal warning that the topic ban is meant to be applied to all edits in any page in any namespace, no just to those edits made in certain pages?

Please, don't just close the AE thread and consider him warned. Please issue a formal warning in his talk page. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:14, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Brews ohare

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • Given the usual use of the words "broadly construed", I can't see that there's a whole lot of wiggle room here, and it seems there is indeed a violation, which would allow for a block of no longer than one week. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 11:09, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also agree with TC that the maximum block is warranted. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 13:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • All right, I had taken the "pages of any nature about physics or physics-related mathematics" to mean any page with any connection to physics, even if not the primary topic. Apparently we don't have agreement on that understanding here, though. If further discussion doesn't produce a consensus, perhaps a request for clarification could be in order. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 23:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • NW, Seraphimblade, as there is a clear disagreement here with people on both sides clearly acting in good faith, I very much support the idea of a request for clarification. This situation, where people aren't sure how to interpret an ArbCom ruling, is exactly why we have a place to make such requests. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 23:57, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks like a violation to me; given the history here, minded to go with the maximum one week block. T. Canens (talk) 11:32, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I remain of the view that this is an unambiguous violation. The third example in WP:TBAN is directly on point: just as a "section entitled 'Climate' in the article New York" would be covered by a topic ban from weather, even though the article itself is not about weather. This remains so even if the edit in question removed the whole section on the argument that it's irrelevant to the subject at hand. If someone topic banned from climate change were to edit Hurricane Sandy and remove the "Relation to global warming" subsection because it is "about its relevance to the [hurricane], not about [climate change]", I doubt that any of us would hesitate to block. T. Canens (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not immediately clear to me that this really is a violation of the topic ban: the edits relate to the plausible applicability of some vague physics-related concepts to philosophical concepts rather than discuss the physics themselves – and the posts were clearly intended to affect the philosophical discussion and not the physics.

    I'd agree it skirts uncomfortably close to the restriction, but I'd argue that a week-long block is unwarranted. — Coren (talk) 14:24, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with Coren; this seems to be stretching the definition of "broadly construed" a bit too far. NW (Talk) 18:56, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am still unconvinced by arguments that this falls within the (intent of the) topic ban. It appears to be 4-2 against my position though. What have we historically done in times like this? NW (Talk) 19:39, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think that all of Brews' edit cited here to free will was physics-related, but I have a hard time seeing how "Physical models offered at present are both deterministic and indeterministic, and are subject to interpretations of quantum mechanics - which themselves are being constrained by ongoing experimentation." could be interpreted as anything but directly and clearly relating to physics. Brews was clearly aware this was part of the edit, as evidenced by the later "gobbledygook" discussion on it. Other parts of that edit, such as those about intuition, etc., would not have violated the topic ban, but that, in my opinion, very clearly does. Accordingly, I have to agree with those finding this to be a sanctionable violation. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:38, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Brews, no, that doesn't convince me at all. The topic ban means that you may not edit any page or part of a page related to physics, at all. That's what a topic ban means. I do understand that there could be a significant grey area there, but I just can't find any grey here. A reference to quantum mechanics is a clear and direct reference to a theory that is a major part of modern physics, and that means that editing or removing that reference is off limits to you, period. Seraphimbladepublic (talk) 20:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • NW, I'm not sure, this is indeed an unusual situation. Maybe Heimstern's suggestion of a request for clarification would be a way to move forward? Seraphimbladepublic (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • At this point, I think the result of the clarification request clearly indicates that these types of edits were intended to be prohibited by the topic ban. I suggest that now that this has been made clear, we should close this thread with a logged final warning to Brews that the topic ban applies to physics-related material in all cases. This applies to only material reasonably and closely related to physics, and I'll be the first to warn that if we see an enforcement request here because Brews expressed units in meters or seconds, or because he edited an article on a car engine and car engines are ultimately applied physics, the filer is likely to be the one sanctioned for filing a frivolous request and wasting everyone's time. However, if the material is related to physics, its theories, etc., it is off limits, even if that isn't the main subject of the article. I also strongly urge Brews to ask for an opinion on applicability of the ban before editing a questionable area, either here or from one of the admins familiar with the case. Appropriate clarification requests are not a violation of the topic ban. As to the topic ban itself, it's ultimately up to ArbCom whether relaxing or lifting it is called for, as the ban was not imposed by AE but by ArbCom directly. I honestly don't see a block doing any good at this point, but now that the scope of the restriction is clear, it will be very likely next time. I hope never to see that thread appear here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Agree that this is the most appropriate resolution. NW (Talk) 19:50, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Agreed as well. (As a side note, the textual question is hardly as clear-cut as some commenters above suggest. The phrase "topic ban" is a term of art, defined by policy at WP:TBAN, which says that it includes edits to topic-related parts of otherwise unrelated pages unless "clearly and unambiguously specified otherwise". Simply saying "topic-banned from pages" does not really constitute a clear and unambiguous declaration that the topic ban is to be considerably narrowed in this manner.) T. Canens (talk) 16:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The word 'physics' occurs in material removed by Brews ohare on 12 December from the Free will article. His edit removes a citation of a physics paper called "An experimental test of non-local realism" published in Nature in 2007 by Simon Gröblacher et al. So I do find this to be a technical violation of his physics restriction. To convince you his edit is really about physics, take a look at Bell test experiments#Gröblacher et al. (2007) test of Leggett-type non-local realist theories. It explains the significance of Gröblacher's work in the context of quantum mechanics. On December 13 another editor restored mention of the Gröblacher paper and it is currently back in the article. Brews has been in front of Arbcom a number of times. So in spite of the temptation to send this report away as too minor to bother with, I think it's better if we treat it as a bright line issue, and issue a block of some duration. If Brews would agree to avoid this in the future, this might be closed with no action. My assumption is that he will not negotiate, but I would be glad to be proven wrong. If anyone thinks it is time to start relaxing Brews' ban, they should take it up with Arbcom. EdJohnston (talk) 18:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Medvegja

Medvegja (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from all articles and discussions pertaining to Albania, broadly construed, and may appeal after 6 months. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Medvegja

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Athenean (talk) 17:13, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Medvegja (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:ARBMAC
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. [25] Tampering with population numbers without providing sources or even an explanation
  2. [26] Claiming there are sources for something without providing them
  3. [27] Tendentious editing
  4. [28] Use of deceitful edit summaries (it's not an undo, he just makes it appear so in the hope that no one will check it)
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
  1. Warned on [29] by Athenean (talk · contribs)
  2. Warned on [30] by Bbb23 (talk · contribs)


Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Medvegja is a disruptive Balkan-nationalist single purpose account that is particularly obsessed with population figures. At Albanians, he has been inflating the numbers and edit-warring over that for months [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37]. He just changes the numbers on a whim, almost never providing a source, or explanation, or even an edit summary, marking every edit as "minor". Virtually all his edits at Albanians is along these lines. This kind of disruption is persistent, long term and shows no sign of abating, if anything it is getting worse. He was recently blocked [38] and warned of ARBMAC sanctions following a particularly nasty bout of edit-warring [39] (scroll to the bottom). Other articles suffer from similar disruption [40] [41] [42]. Sources are tampered with, removed, without an explanation provided. At Markos Botsaris, he has been making tendentious unexplained edits for months, again without explanation or sign of stopping [43] [44]. Particularly odious are his attempts to deceive in his edit summaries, e.g. here [45]. The edit is not an undo. He just tries to make it seem as such in the hope of evading scrutiny. Attempts at talkpage discussion are mathematically zero [46], as is content building or any other positive contribs for that matter. Attempts to engage this user are usually rebuffed in a hostile manner [47] [48]. It is my distinct impression that this user is not suited to edit ARBMAC topics, and the topic area is much better off without him.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[49]

Update

It appears he is now socking through an IP [50], most likely from some kind of net cafe. Note the reinstatement of Medvegja's previous edit at Laskarina Bouboulina, the edits to Medveđa and the retaliatory unexplained revert of my edit at Suleiman the Magnificient.


Discussion concerning Medvegja

Statement by Medvegja

I did add sources to my edits recently about Albanians according to official census in Albania,Croatia,Greece etc.I know how many Albanians live in south Serbia (60,000) because i come from there and in 2002 census there were 61,647 . Arbëreshë people in Italy are Albanians and they must be included,also Arvanites are Albanian.Laskarina Bouboulina,Markos Botsaris and many other heroes of Greek War of Independece are Arvanites-Albanians.We should stop hiding the truth and accept these facts.I will be more careful in my edits,but i hope that my Greek friends will stop also giving poor sources about Greeks in Albania and rejecting the official results. I would be very glad if they can prove that Arvanites are not of Albanian origin. User talk:Medvegja 21:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Medvegja

Pretending that Arvanites are not Albanians is like pretending Kosovan Albanians are not Albanians,or that Austrians don`t speak German and have nothing to do with them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.187.125.62 (talk • contribs)

Btw, IP 91.187's contribs includes editing the article on what Medvegja says on his user page is his home town (population: 2,841). DeCausa (talk) 13:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Medvegja

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:Mor2

Appeal granted. While the block has already expired at this time, Mor2's block log and the case page will be annotated to reflect that the block was found unwarranted by consensus of uninvolved administrators. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user
Mor2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction being appealed
blocked for WP:1RR at Operation Pillar of Defense
Administrator imposing the sanction
Bbb23 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Notification of that administrator
The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
N/A (blocked) but Bbb23 is aware of appeal

Statement by User:Mor2

  • Reason: I haven't violated the spirit or letter of the policy. I haven't warred with anyone or made more than one revert. I made a simple improvement, based on the section main article lead, providing an extensive edit summary.
  • Details: all the details, difs and explanations were posted here: User_talk:Mor2#December_2012 (I posted them there by mistake, as I am unfamiliar with unblock feature)
  • Request: to lift and strike the block.

Statement by User:Bbb23

I believe that Mor2 agrees that this change to the article was a revert. The change at issue is this one and whether it constitutes a revert under WP:1RR. On its face, it is a revert, i.e., "an[] edit ... that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material." (WP:3RR) As I understand it, Mor2's claim is they were just improving on language they originally introduced 499 revisions earlier, this one on November 17 and this one on November 20.

As I explained to Mor2 on their talk page, even assuming I should take into account those edits from over a month ago, they don't look like material introduced by Mor2 but material that was altered by Mor2. So, perhaps the latest edit (the one at issue) was an "improvement" in Mor2's eyes, but it looked to me like another alteration or "undoing", if you will.

I also took into account Mor2's experience and previous block, meaning they were not newbies unfamiliar with arbitration enforcement on this article. Indeed, like many of the frequent editors of that article, they are often more knowledgeable than an admin like me who is merely enforcing the sanctions.

All that said, if Mor2 had acknowledged that in hindsight what they did was wrong, that they are well-aware of 1RR but sincerely didn't think they were violating it, I might have considered unblocking them. Instead, I don't see any self-awareness in this appeal. That concerns me because it makes it more likely that similar violations may occur in the future.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shrike(involved editor 1)

As I remember in the past AE regular editing that changed a text that was already in the article long time ago was not considered a revert and user were discouraged to bring such kind of reverts to consideration.But my personal opinion and the language of WP:3RR is quite clear on this that any change in the article is considered a revert and the time variable shouldn't really matter.The problem that is left for admin discretion, in my view they shouldn't be any grey areas on this matter.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 16:23, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@T.Canens:Shouldn't the language of 3RR amended per your comments.Just it will be clear so no grey areas will be left?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:Mor2

Result of the appeal by User:Mor2

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • The key question in this appeal is whether this edit is a revert.

    As far as I can determine, the two sentences in the form before Mor2's recent edit were the results for edits by several editors on November 20: the first sentence was added in this edit by Mor2; the source for that sentence added in this edit also by Mor2. The second sentence was also added by Mor2 here, then tweaked by Jalapenos do exist here and finally modified by Nishidani here. I have done a spot check of roughly three dozen revisions between the time of Nishidani's edit and Mor2's new edit at question; all of the revisions I checked have the same text, suggesting that the two sentences at issue are unlikely to have been the subject of an edit war. Under these circumstances, it is arguable that the edit at issue, even if it were a revert, would be mostly a self-revert, but I do not think that is a good ground upon which to dispose of the appeal, because there are elements contributed by other editors, and more importantly because it would make sanctions turn on pure happenstance.

    Rather, I think that the appeal should be allowed on the ground that the edit at issue is not a revert at all. To be sure, it fits the literal description of "revert" found at WP:3RR (any edit...that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material), but every single tweak to an article can be considered a revert by that definition, and it is arguable that even insertion of material that could have been but was not inserted before would "reverse" the implicit "action" not to include the material; that would be simply absurd. As I said before, the xRR rules are intended to constrain actual edit warring, not traps for the unwary or invitations to do hypertechnical parsing of edits in search of reverts. I'll reiterate my longstanding view that for an edit to constitute a revert for xRR purposes, the editor in question must have intended it to undo a particular edit, in whole or in part. This can be shown either by direct evidence such as use of undo or rollback, or mention of revert in the edit summary, or by circumstantial evidence such as a recent or ongoing edit war on the matter, or restoration of an old revision of the page that is unlikely to have occurred from normal editing. In this case we have evidence of neither, and I think that the edit is not a revert, and the 1RR block is in error.

    These views, I believe, are also consistent with previous AE practice. See, e.g., Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive73#SlimVirgin, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive116#Dalai lama ding dong. T. Canens (talk) 17:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm in broad agreement with T. Canens. In the most hypertechnical sense, we might be able to call just about any edit a revert—even a typo fix "reverses" the typo. I do not see the second edit as having been a revert in the sense that we normally use the word, and so do not believe 1RR was violated. The appealing party does not dispute that the other edit was a revert, so I didn't examine that one. 1RR is intended to prevent disruptive edit warring, not normal editing. Seraphimbladepublic (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also agree with T. Canens. The 3RR/1RR rules are intended to nip edit warring in the bud. Blocking, per 1RR, for a "revert" of an edit that was done weeks ago is (IMO) a distortion of the definition of a revert, and this block makes no sense at all to me. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 19:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This AE request is an appeal of Mor2's 48-hour block. Since the block has expired the request is moot. Why don't we declare the appeal successful and close it. EdJohnston (talk) 05:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would make a notation in the block log and in the ARBPIA log to the effect that we have found the block to be unwarranted on appeal before closing this, but otherwise no objections to Ed's proposal. T. Canens (talk) 05:58, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed with this resolution. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed on the notation. Without some highly visible indication that the now-expired block was inappropriate, another admin (or even the same admin) might assume it was OK and feel justified in issuing a similar block down the road. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 08:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I would also support the idea of reviewing the current official description of the 3RR policy, to make it clear that 3RR/1RR is to be interpreted within the context of stopping or preventing edit wars. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 08:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not particularly sure that's necessary or even desirable; the current wording has the virtue of clarity, and I'm not sure it is even possible to add qualifiers like this without opening up opportunity for wikilawyering and endless headache. (Honestly, I'm not even sure that my own views, which are expressed in what I believe to be significantly more definitive terms than "within the context of stopping or preventing edit wars", are not wikilawyerable; happily, if someone ever tries to wikilawyer, I can always easily revise it.) I think the best approach is still judicious exercise of admin discretion. Regardless, that's a discussion best reserved for another page.

          Unless any uninvolved admin objects (or gets to it first), I'll close this appeal as successful and annotate the block log and the ARBPIA log accordingly in about 12 hours. T. Canens (talk) 12:00, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bali ultimate

Bali ultimate is topic-banned, as outlined in WP:TBAN, for six months from the area of conflict as defined in WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict, that is, everything related to the Arab-Israeli or Palestinian-Israeli conflict.  Sandstein  11:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Bali ultimate

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
--Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Bali ultimate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Editors_reminded
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 00:30 28 December 2012 "Modern ignoramuses can start here ... This place is pathetic that it gives equal voice to experts and propagandists (yes, I'm talking about "ankhmorpork" and "brewcrewer" when I write that). If they suggest that wire services don't move opinion pieces they're either lying or ignorant". Bali ultimate earlier specified that he himself was the "expert"; this leaves the others as the "propagandists", to which he adds the "either lying or ignorant" provocation. The edit summary here makes an attempt to squirm out of this being a direct personal attack, but is then reversed by the edit summary in the next diff;
  2. 00:34 28 December 2012 "You know what, here's the massive opinion section at Reuters for the propagandists (anonymous ones, notice)" with edit summary "totally full of it, and proven to be so. They should be ashamed, but they have no honor". (my emphasis)
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
  1. Warned on 4 October 2012 by Elen of the Roads (talk · contribs) "This page is under WP:ARBPIA sanctions. I consider your conduct in making posts of this kind to come under the heading of seriously failing to adhere to expected standards of behaviour. Consider yourself lucky that the longer block under that sanction was not imposed on this occasion. Please find a way to conduct your disagreements in a less aggressive and provocative manner" - note the conduct in question was an incident where Bali ultimate was making the same assertions about other editors being "propagandists"
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
  • 02:46 28 December 2012 Bali ultimate removes warning from uninvolved administrator The Bushranger (talk · contribs) with edit summary "run along to activities more suited to your talents".
  • I consider the original accusation of "hounding" to be unfounded, and quite frankly the whole thing should've been closed down long ago.
  • I've not edited the ANI thread nor the Operation Pillar of Defense article (an Israeli strike against Hamas, therefore clearly covered by WP:ARBPIA) where the disagreement started, but Bali ultimate has made some similar comments about me in the past (that one was not related to an ARBPIA issue) so he is not at present on my Christmas card list.
  • The other editors involved have not indulged in any ad hominem behaviour in that ANI thread on either side of the dispute (silly though it is), thus making these personal attacks all the more unreasonable.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABali_ultimate&diff=530128997&oldid=530078648

Discussion concerning Bali ultimate

Statement by Dan Murphy

How amusing. I stand by my statement that anyone who says that wire services don't typically move opinion pieces are either ignorant or liars. There is no third option. I'll go further and say an attempt to disqualify news reporting on the basis of offensive opinion pieces in the same outlet is a low tactic, typical of the gaming in this topic area at this website. I am not aware of any outlet (and I read lots of them -- lots of them) that has never moved an opinion piece that I didn't find offensive in some way or another. That includes my own employers. So it goes. Nableezy: Yes, we probably have little in common in our views about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My bedrock value is intellectual honesty. As long as folks have that, they'll have few problems with me. Well, I'm in Cairo for the next couple of weeks working. Have fun y'all.Dan Murphy (talk) 15:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Bali ultimate

Since did ANI fall under ARBPIA? Darkness Shines (talk) 11:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since it's used to further a dispute about an Israeli airstrike on Hamas. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:30, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ya, but that was not what Bali posted about was it? Did he even mention the article? Or the content dispute? Anyway everyone gets overexcited at ANI, it is hardly a hanging offence. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:02, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, he mentioned the content dispute. People do indeed get overexcited at ANI, but the arbitration remedy in question says "assuming good faith of all editors including those on the other side of the real-world dispute, writing with a neutral point of view, remaining civil and avoiding personal attacks" - it does not mention "except when you get overexcited at ANI". As I already pointed out in the request, this is not a case of "everyone" getting overexcited, it's a case of one specific editor once again attempting to personalise the PIA dispute in a way that he's been warned about (and sanctioned for) previously. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 12:25, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be nice if Bali would substantiate his "expert view" that mainstream news networks publish hate-filled diatribes against ethnic groups. Ankh.Morpork 13:00, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has to be among the sillier AE threads in some years, and that is saying something. Yes, one editor is overexcited, the editor who gleefully brought an AE thread over a comment that any number of administrators had already seen and any one of them could deal with if they felt it worthy of something more than a shrug. nableezy - 14:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks like a straightforward violation of both WP:NPA and Discretionary Sanctions. It is up to admins whether to do anything about it. Looking at their user page, this is only one example of this user's behavior in this manner. Sadly, this is now so common on Wikipedia that maybe it has become acceptable. We will see shortly by the reaction of AE admins. Either way, it is useful because some clarity regarding civility enforcement in senstive disputes (and not only on I/P) might emerge as a result - BorisG (talk) 15:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really don't think this is a frivolous or silly AE case. Perhaps Bali was a constructive editor at some point, but in the IP area over the past year, nearly all his actions appear to have been disruptive, calling this person or that a propagandist. His recent action on his talk page seems to underscore this - deleting a warning against personal attacks by Bush Ranger with the following edit summary: "run along to activities more suited to your talents" [51] and deleting Demiurge's notification of the AE [52] with the following summary: "tootle along dearie". It seems quite apparent that Bali has no desire to reform his disruptive behavior or even recognize that there is a problem. His IP-related activity on Wikipediocracy [53] also deserves a closer look, where he's identified his top 10 editors promoting a "pro-settler agenda coupled with an agenda to dehumanize Palestinians in particular and Muslims in general" as part of a concerted "propaganda effort" on Wikipedia. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who cares? Completely pointless report. Volunteer Marek 19:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This request does not refer to editing on articles or their talk pages, so should be dismissed. I do not personally agree with Bali ultimate's use of WP:ANI to soapbox, but it seems that many other editors play similar games. Mathsci (talk) 20:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Cailil: The OED defines "propagandist" as: 1. A person who produces or disseminates propaganda, esp. as a political strategy; an advocate of the systematic use of propaganda; a person devoted to the propagation of a particular doctrine, idea, etc. Assuming good faith, as we ought to do, let's suppose that Bali Ultimate meant the word in the third sense: a person devoted to the propagation of a particular doctrine, idea, etc. A brief glance at the contributions of the editors to whom Bali Ultimate applied the term will show that he is correct. Just because you think the word always has negative connotations, in fact it does not. Regardless of what one thinks of the civility policy it is not possible to enforce it sensibly if we do not pay attention to the actual meanings of the words used.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • AGF is not a suicide pact; when "propagandist" is combined with "lying" and "ignorant" and "they have no honor" and the insinuations about the other editors' opinions being worth less because they are (in Bali ultimate's opinion) "anonymous" and all the rest of it, then yes, it's more than reasonable to believe the word is being used with a negative connotation. Presumably Bali ultimate could have clarified that if he made a statement - but it seems he has chosen not to. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cailil, since when exactly has ANI been unable to police itself? I was unaware that there was a dearth of administrators there, or even in that section. It doesnt really matter, I doubt Bali will care, but you dont see anything wrong with the idea that one of the few people on Wikipedia that is actually qualified to write about this topic would be barred from doing so? Because some random person who is watching and waiting for the chance to say "gotcha" and come running here doesnt have anything better to do? That seems a bit backwards, but then again so do most things on Wikipedia. Never mind, carry on. nableezy - 19:15, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A battleground mentality is not a suitable qualification for writing about this topic area, no. As for ANI, yes there's less admins than usual around at the moment, and quite a few of them have been busy blocking each other and/or recovering from the consequences. Your insinuation that I'm "waiting and watching" and have "nothing better to do" - yes I watchlist ANI, but that's hardly unusual. Given the number of AE requests you've brought against your ideological opponents, it seems a rather odd thing to say. I'm in the fortunate position of not having any ideological opponents in this topic area, but I don't see that disqualifying me from making an AE request. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A battleground mentality is not a suitable qualification for writing about this topic area, no. - you obviously have no idea of what you're talking about.Volunteer Marek 03:00, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think there was maybe one time that I brought a complaint about something I wasnt involved in. About something that happened on an article's talk page. And when I say qualified, I dont mean some random person who read the wiki rulebook on how to "be nice". I mean somebody who has professional qualifications. And come on now, you may not have ideological opponents, but you rather obviously have personal opponents, opponents that you for whatever misguided reason wish to see punished for past sleights. And by the looks of it you probably succeeded. Congratulations, really. No sarcasm at all. nableezy - 03:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't about "being nice", it's about repeatedly violating an arbcom ruling. A scrap of paper doesn't mean much if a person is demonstrably incapable of acting in a professional, or even reasonable, manner when editing in a particular topic area. (Actually the repeated instances, always on the same side, in the same topic area, make any such scrap of paper look to mean a great deal less.) And my concern here isn't about "past sleights", my concern is about behaviour that is plainly detrimental to the encyclopedia - just as that has been my concern every other time I've got involved in this topic area. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is just foolish. Whats the aim here, a cooperative editing environment, or an encyclopedia? I dont want you to think that I say this because Bali is my ideological ally, Id bet lots and lots of money that he would disagree with most of my positions. He doesnt even spend that much time editing in the topic area, but when he does he is an asset to the goal of making an encyclopedia. Yall are lucky enough to have somebody paid to write about the Middle East do it for free here. You would be wiser to ask him what he thinks is wrong rather than shut him up. nableezy - 05:54, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps pompously declaring that you have self-imposed a block, which you are supposedly still under, and then flagrantly flouting it, has given rise to the impression that your editing can be "dishonest"? Ankh.Morpork 11:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I try to save admin and editors time by imposing my own sanctions for inadvertent slip-ups, yes. In the last case, no one made a fuss. It was a good faith error. But I dislike lapses of attention in myself, and so suspended myself from editing articles . What does this quiet notification on my own obscure page, and my observance of it, generate in the hostile environment some enjoy stirring? Contemptuous accusations of ‘grandiose’ grandstanding, self-promotion, ‘much fanfare’, suggestions that I am ‘advertising how ethical I am (otherwise people might get the wrong impression by just looking at (my) behaviour’. And now, here, your own spin that I am ‘flagrantly flouting it’, that my declaration was ‘pompous’ and justifies the impression I am ‘dishonest’. There are a lot of abusive adjectives being thrown my way here, that far outweigh in malicious throwweight the remarks you and a few others find so deplorable in Bali Ultimate. For the record, on my page where I list my self-suspensions, it should be clear that they refer to article editing, and I have not edited any I/P article since 9 December (well I did slip up just once and realizing the error immediately self reverted). What is being flouted here is both an ability to read honestly the record, and to assume good faith, proof enough that this place is poisoned by sheer POV-pushing tacticism. Nishidani (talk) 12:32, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can't make out if this is sad or hilarious, though I am sure this case is ridiculous. I can just imagine if these administrators had any power in the real world, everytime the Southern Poverty Law Center were to point out a hate group these admins would attack the SPLC for not being nice while ignoring the terrible actions of the hate groups. Sepsis II (talk) 15:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Disclaimer: my comment is not about BU but about general civility approach. There is a huge difference between general political discourse, where SPLC operates, and where freedom of speech is paramount, and a collaborative workplace like Wikipedia, where civility of internal communication is essential to create an appropriate collaborative environment. I think of Wikipedia as a workplace, and try to talk to people the same way I talk to colleagues. Not as a pub or a sports stadium, where different standards of civility apply. You don't tell your work collagues that they are lying or ignorant, even when you think they are, do you? And before someone points out the difference, it does not matter if the work is paid or unpaid, under your real name of a pseudonim. Obviously, many editors do not share my approach. But for now, wp:civility is still one of the four pillars of wikipedia. If they disagree, they need to campaign to change the policy. - BorisG (talk) 04:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure the analogy works well. If Wikipedia were a work place I think a large number of people would probably have been fired for acting against the interests of the organization, misusing resources to pursue outside interests and reputation damage etc, together with the people who collaborated with them. As for civility, it's a tricky issue but I see that the policy refers to "ill-considered accusations of impropriety" rather than "well considered accusations of impropriety that are consistent with evidence presented". In the blocking for incivility section it says "Be sure to take into account all the relevant history" among other things. I don't think that has happened in this case. Of course I'm wiki-lawyering and sampling the policy in a biased way but that is probably because my view is that the root of the problem is the presence of editors who edit in a systematically biased way and Wikipedia's apparent inability or unwillingness to deal with them rather than people's reactions to them. If I were an AE admin I would set Dan/BU a challenge - provide sufficient evidence to support your statements, it will be examined and the editors you are concerned about will be <some suitable sanction> if your concerns are found to be valid. If you are unable or unwilling to do that, you will be <some suitable sanction>. This seems like a better approach to me. AE needs to develop ways to address causes as well as effects. It needs to be able to identify and deal with bias and civil POV-pushing in the ARBPIA topic area as well as incivility. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:37, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
tl;dr... go watch the youtube videos of the guy and it won't be surprising that he isn't making friends here even with people who share the same bias.Cptnono (talk) 05:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reading is underrated around here. nableezy - 06:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sean, I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree regarding civility. I work in a large organisation, and deal not just with colleagues but also with students, some of whom are lazy, ignorant, cheating, all sorts of things. And it is not wrong (indeed, it is required) to point out their faults and indiscretions, and indeed to seek sanction, etc, but it must be done in a civil manner. If someone is a fool, it is never useful to tell them. There are always other ways to state your concerns. And no, the existence of proof that a statement is incorrect, biased etc, is not a valid reason for using the word lying. As for bias, etc, well I agree that this is a serious problem on Wikipedia, maybe more serious than incivility. But (1) everyone has bias, although few would admit it, even to themselves. And (2), in my view, incivility does not help solve the bias problem. - BorisG (talk) 07:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The problem for me is that incivility is treated like noise when it should be treated more like signal. Like pain, ignoring it or doing nothing but switching it off is usually not a smart move. I'm happy to admit my bias on the civility issue as I don't see civility as any more effective than incivility here although incivility has the advantage of sometimes being funny. I agree that incivility does not help solve the bias problem but does it really change anything ? Call me cynical but I have a hard time believing that Dan/BU's targets suffered in any way or that what he said damaged the functioning of the topic area at all. Perceived effectiveness of civility with respect to behavioral changes here (not that I can think of any examples of the effectiveness of civility off hand) is likely to just be regression toward the behavioral mean. Imposing civility doesn't seem to be effective, it's just something that Wikipedia has decided helps, like prayer and snake oil. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:56, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"I have a hard time believing that Dan/BU's targets suffered in any way" -- personally I find it difficult to imagine that someone would make this type of outburst, repeatedly, unless they believed it likely to have some effect on the targets or on others' perceptions of the targets. Seriously, what other purpose does all this "shitheel" stuff have? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:26, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if "cynical" is the right term for someone who completely reverses himself when discussing his allies vs his opponents. [55]. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:49, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is an example of the inherent dishonesty of fake civility and the way it is used in the topic area as doublespeak. It's also an example where incivility on my part would be very appropriate but alas ineffective. NMMNG, you might want to read what I wrote after that where you will note that I said "if he...could support the accusation with sufficient evidence I would have no objection at all to the label being used because it would be accurate" and here at AE and ask yourself whether it is likely that I think everything Dan said qualifies as "a pile of evidenceless idiotic crap" or whether I think there are editors who can reasonably be described as propagandists. Then you can try to look for the bit where I say "If you are unable or unwilling to do that, you will be <some suitable sanction>". The rules dictate that Dan should likely receive a block for what he said just like Bugs should have been blocked but the substance of the cases are, in my view, quite different. Either way, it is evidence that matters. Editors should be given the opportunity to support their statements, no matter how incivil, with evidence. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:47, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think anyone can argue that there are not propagandists editing wikipedia, and that they do damage to wikipedia and annoy the hell out of other editors. If one editor declares another a propagandist, and the declarer can provide substantial evidence of their claim, it should not be taken as an attack, similar to when one editor seriously questions the competence of another editor. I think Bali should have filed a more official complaint against these two proclaimed propagandists rather than what he did, though this faux pas is not serious enough for administrative action so long as Bali can prove his claims. Sepsis II (talk) 20:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I follow this general rule: Editors that recklessly throw around the propagandist label toward others on Wikipedia are generally propagandists themselves or lack the patience and good-faith necessary to work constructively with others on Wikipedia. I mean, it's laughable that Mr. Murphy included me (and others) on a top 10 list of editors pushing an Israeli "pro-settler agenda"[56] when I sparingly edit such articles. Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What this request demonstrates is just how dysfunctional WP:AE is, on the administrator side. It doesn't just fail to solve problems in contentious topic areas it makes them worse. The discussion on Dan's talk page [57] as well as some of the above (ignoring the usual partisan bickering) is basically saying, "Yes, Dan, you're right, but you didn't put it in the right words and we have these DISCRETIONARY SANCTIONS in this topic area so we must punish you because that's how Arbitration Enforcement works!". In the minds of the admins who self-select onto this page this constitutes "solving" this problem. Now, this kind of thinking, if it had a track record of actually improving the situation in contentious topic areas, would perhaps be justified. But this whole IP mess has been getting worse and worse and worse, and all the WP:AE sanctions handed out in the past (to both sides) haven't improved the situation one bit. In fact the more WP:AE gets involved in the IP area, the worse it gets. Maybe that's a clue that you guys don't have the competence to intervene in this topic area (if anyone does) and should stop pouring the gasoline onto the fire (even if that is done with well intentions). One piece of evidence for why and how this is happening is how disconnected the discussion in the "Comments by others about the request concerning Bali ultimate" section is (which, while full of bickering, actually sort of manages to address the real issue at hand) from the discussion in the "Result concerning Bali ultimate" section is. The latter can basically be described as "we don't know what the fuck we are doing but we got to do something so let's hand out some bans and feel all self-righteous". It's hubris.

What is really needed is a general ban from people filing IP related requests, or at least a ban on all the admins that have been active on WP:AE for the past few years from handling IP related requests in the foreseeable future since their track record is so abysmal. I'm not asking for an improvement (it's a difficult topic area), just, please, stop making it worse! Volunteer Marek 01:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Any evidence that AE sanctions make things worse, please? I am not sure it is getting worse, but if it does, please show that this is as a result of AE sanctions. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 01:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Go through the history page of WP:AE for the past few years. The only conflating factor is the Wikipedia-wide decline in editor participation which translates into a bit less fighting, even in this contentious topic, essentially because people have gotten bored (which is a good thing). Other than that, since this request looks just like a request from 2007, 2008 or 2009 that pretty clearly illustrates that at the very least things haven't gotten better. Have they gotten worse because of WP:AE? Causality is hard to demonstrate conclusively. But the very fact that all these IP conflict people ALWAYS come running to WP:AE on the flimsiest of excuses is pretty good evidence of the fact that they regard WP:AE and the dupes who "administrate" it as a pretty effective battleground tool. Like I've said before, for topic areas like IP, WP:AE is just the equivalent of exporting new weapon technologies to war torn countries. It doesn't solve the issues, just ups the stakes. Stop it. Stop "administratin'".Volunteer Marek 02:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, so what you're saying is that the people from "2007, 2008 or 2009" that behaved like this either got banned from the topic area, or "got bored" (probably due to having been banned from the topic area on other accounts too many times). And this is an argument that this person with this 2007-style approach to the topic area should not be removed from it for a while? I'm not buying it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Any honest reading of what I said above makes that clear. The fact that this topic area is still a problem after five years of arbitration enforcement is illustrated by the filing of this report, which just exemplifies the entrenched battleground mentality of some of the participants. The discussion by the admins below illustrates how this mentality is enabled by them.Volunteer Marek 15:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

VM, I think you misread the problem. The root problem here is that its never about the content. Look at what happened prior to Murphy's comments. A user who regularly uses such "sources" as Cybercast News Service, UN Watch, or Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (all in the same edit!) when it suits him attempted to disqualify one of the few Palestinian news organizations on the basis of their having published an op-ed that he found particularly offensive. That is the type of problem that AE should solve, by kicking such an editor to the curb for hypocritical gaming and tendentious editing. But no. Another user holding a grudge from an earlier interaction with Murphy saw in this absurdly hypocritical issue a comment made by Murphy as an opportunity to exact revenge. As though Murphy, and not Wikipedia, suffers from a ban. If any one of the admins were willing to look at AnkhMorpork's and Bali ultimate's contributions to this topic area, or for that matter Bali ultimate's and Demiurge1000's, and make a determination as to which one of those two Wikipedia would be better off with when looking at the point of this place supposedly is, they would be unable to justify removing Murphy. But they dont do that. The content almost never matters. Its always these trivialities that are given immense attention as though they have anything to do with writing an encyclopedia. And Im sure you realize this, but nothing is going to change any minds in that section below. I dont know if they know that their decision damages the encyclopedia, or if they dont care if it does. The collegial environment, thats what counts. The articles, not so much. This place is a waste of time, time much better spent convincing people that because of dumbfounding decisions like this and concerted efforts to turn articles into propaganda pieces (like ...) that nothing they read on Wikipedia on anything even remotely controversial can be trusted .nableezy - 04:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is the type of problem that AE should solve (my emphasis) - I don't think we're disagreeing here.Volunteer Marek 15:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So VM, you are now saying it is not necessarily getting worse, but it is not getting better, and AE does not seem to solve the problem. That much I tend to agree, but this is a far cry from saying AE is making things worse. Admins are just doing their bit enforcing established discretionary sanctions, and it is not their fault at all that the problem is not getting solved. Maybe the ArBcom sanctions are not the best tool, maybe the whole process is inadequate, but this is not the fault of volunteer admins. Two more points: (1) AE have seen cases not just on civility, but also on other serious policy vioolations, such as misrepresentation of soources, etc. Quite a few bad apples have been banned, and without it, the situation would be even worse. And (2), don't forget the deterrent effect, which is real but difficult to estimate. So I think AE is a net positive, it's just inefficient and insufficient. Maybe what Gatoclass was proposing would be better, but I do not know what came out of it. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 04:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When? I think I know what you are referring to, but that inst really a fair case. The one Im thinking about, where a user straight up lied about what a source said, putting in the opposite of what the source said, nothing happened. Nothing. Oh, and in that same complaint, there was another edit where a user put an incontestable error of fact in an "encyclopedia" article, still nothing happened. This place is not equipped to handle the actual problems. nableezy - 04:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You are possibly right. - BorisG (talk) 05:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sanctioning him for his comments at ANI would be a mistake, in my opinion. They were robust. That's all. If you sanction him for these, under your interpretation of our civility norms, you'll be assuming a level of personal wisdom and insight into those norms that no one else has the audacity at present to assume. If he'd made those comments on an article talk page (I believe article talk pages to be sacrosanct) perhaps I'd be more sympathetic. Civility, sadly, is still a work in progress here. Please realise that and, for the time being, while the community is actively, in many venues, still nutting out where we stand, err on the side of caution. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with Anthonyhcole, especially if BU agrees to abide by civility policies in the future. It is worrying that he doesn't though. - BorisG (talk) 04:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That would be requiring him to abide by a policy that none of us understands at the moment. Provided he's not disrupting articles and their talk pages, please leave him alone. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nableezy, I think you're dead on up above. About everything you say, but about this in particular: "The collegial environment, thats what counts." And as our colleague, Demiurge1000, in a deep, deep observation, was kind enough to point out explicitly, we don't count as colleagues of theirs. It's their collegial atmosphere they're concerned with. And we can all get picked off one by one and walk away muttering Eppur si muove.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cailil, just to clarify, are you saying Dan has been edit-warring? I haven't seen evidence of it in this thread. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Bali ultimate

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • Right, this is a lovely minefield for us to dance through. But frankly Bali Ultimate's remarks show him taking his battlefield mentality from one subject area to ANi. That does violate the sanctions. Elen already clarified for him that his remarks were not acceptable and his repetition of them elsewhere does not take them beyond the RfAr's remit - to my mind it makes the matter worse.
    The diff above (accusing others of being propagandists)[58], alone is unacceptable and this is actionable under normal rules. But more to the point it shows prolonged and escalating inappropriate conduct which is not conducive to a collaborative environment (thus a direct violation of the ruling).
    In terms of how far we take this I'd like to see some input from other sysops but currently I see a corrective measure of some sort being necessary to tone Bali Ultimate's actions down--Cailil talk 17:29, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Cailil that this does fall under ARBPIA. Taking nastiness to a different page is not a way to evade arbitration remedies, and ArbCom recently made clear that they do consider topic bans to cover portions of any page that discuss the topic, even if that is not the primary topic of that particular page. It would seem to logically follow that the same applies to topical restrictions. Given that Bali ultimate has been made aware by two different uninvolved admins that this behavior is unacceptable and sanctionable (and those were hardly his first run-ins with civility problems), and has treated those with dismissiveness and additional rudeness, I don't think yet another stern warning is going to help matters. I would propose a minimum of a six-month topic ban from all material covered by ARBPIA, broadly construed, but at this point the fact that repeated warnings (and blocks) have gone unheeded is verging on calling for an indefinite one. As to the above discussion: One "qualification" for editing in a contentious area is the ability to deal reasonably and civilly with those one disagrees with. Situations in these areas can escalate quickly and badly, and that's why the restrictions were put in place to begin with. Editors who fan the flames in such areas can and will be removed from them. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since my effort to negotiate at User talk:Bali ultimate#WP:AE still open was not successful, I'm now supporting a six-month topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 19:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that the edits at issue are personal attacks, and as such clearly violations of our "expected standards of behavior" as described in the discretionary sanctions authorization. They are also covered by the WP:ARBPIA discretionary sanctions because they relate to articles in the area of conflict outlined in that decision. Judging by his statement here and the discussion linked to by EdJohnston above, Bali ultimate's defense can be summarized as "but I was correct in describing others as ignorants, propagandists etc." This is wrong because personal attacks are not under any circumstances justified or excusable. If we disagree with others, we can and must say so politely - focusing on the content, not on the other editor. Together with a relatively recent 1-week-block for personal attacks in the same topic area, this attitude of Bali ultimate's indicates that if unchecked he is likely to continue making personal attacks on those he disagrees with. A sanction is therefore necessary. Because the personal attacks have so far occurred only in the ARBPIA topic area, a topic ban from that subject matter is an initially appropriate sanction. Six months are rather long, I think, but I agree with this sanction with the understanding that we would be open to granting an appeal in a month or two, if the appeal reflects a genuine understanding that personal attacks are always unacceptable, and contains credible assurances that they won't reoccur. – As concerns the objections in the discussion above that AE admins only bother with formalities such as civility, rather than with the alleged underlying problems in the topic area: Well, we can only look at the cases we're presented with. If there is persistent and problematic (clearly non-neutral, source-falsifying, etc.) content editing on the part of any editor, that can be examined and possibly sanctioned in the context of separate AE requests. If there is adequate evidence in the form of well-explained diffs, of course.  Sandstein  00:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Sandstein - I'd be on board with this as long as it may be appealed after 6-8 weeks. I'll echo Sandstein that if systematic misuse of sources is/was occurring it can and should be brought here as long as it is evidenced fully & properly. However it should be noted that even in that context misbehaviour such as editwarring or incivility is not excusable--Cailil talk 12:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    @-Anthonyhcole - no I'm not. I'm merely stating that any 2 wrongs don't make a right--Cailil talk 13:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Per the above discussion, I'm closing this request with the following sanction under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Standard discretionary sanctions: Bali ultimate is topic-banned, as outlined in WP:TBAN, for six months from the area of conflict as defined in WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict, that is, everything related to the Arab-Israeli conflict (including the Palestinian-Israeli conflict).  Sandstein  11:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)  Sandstein  11:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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