Talk:Fracking/Archive 3

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Removal of Colorado School of Public Health reference

I have removed this section from the entry as it cites an unpublished study. In addition, the reference cited says that there disagreements over the conclusion of the study. --Writer1502 (talk) 12:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of Seismic Image

I have deleted this image as it deals with seismology ans seismic activity, which have been associated with water disposal and geothermal production - not hydraulic fracturing. It also implies a number of possible pathways for contamination that are not associated with hydraulic fracturing. --Writer1502 (talk) 19:56, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I have wondered about this image for some time. The primary concern I have is that it is a user created image which is designed to present a certain point of view. It likely violates WP:OR Arzel (talk) 20:17, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

This image was contributed by MikeNorton and is used by some industry reps at public talks, but more importantly, here is the source that says that seismic activity can be induced by both fracking and disposal wells if they are near existing faults:

"...In northwestern England, however, an independent report commissioned by a drilling company, Cuadrilla Resources, concluded that two quakes of magnitude 1.5 and 2.3 near the city of Blackpool last spring were related to a fracking well. The report suggested several ways to avoid further quakes, including monitoring and limiting the pressures and volumes of fluid used. Fracking is known to cause very slight tremors — far weaker than even the Youngstown quakes — when the fluid is injected into the shale under high pressure. Drilling companies often send sensitive instruments called geophones into the drill holes to analyze these tiny tremors because they indicate whether the rock is fracturing as expected.

But the larger earthquakes near Blackpool were thought to be caused the same way that quakes could be set off from disposal wells — by migration of the fluid into rock formations below the shale. Seismologists say that these deeper, older rocks, collectively referred to as the “basement,” are littered with faults that, although under stress, have reached equilibrium over hundreds of millions of years. “There are plenty of faults,” said Leonardo Seeber, a seismologist with the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory. “Conservatively, one should assume that no matter where you drill, the basement is going to have faults that could rupture.”

Drilling and disposal companies do not usually know that those faults exist, however. Seismic surveys are costly, and states do not require them for oil or gas wells (although larger companies routinely conduct seismic tests as part of exploration). Regulations for disposal wells are concerned about protecting aquifers, not about seismic risk. The federal Environmental Protection Agency, which regulates oil- and gas-related disposal wells unless its cedes its authority to the states, has no seismic requirements for its disposal wells, an agency spokeswoman said. "

Fracture Monitoring

I just wanted to sort the types of monitoring based on the use.

1. Measurement of rate and pressure. Will never do a hydraulic fracturing job without meters for these two and backups reading.

2. Density Measurement With either a radioactive density meter or Coriolis density meter. Almost always use these in line. Primarily used for measuring the concentration of the sand going into a well.

3. Tracers is the next most common form of monitoring a well. Historically the fluid has been radioactive. The highest frequency I have seen this done was one well out of every 10 wells. I currently have not seen this done in about 4 months or about 20 wells. There are some newer methods that don't even use radioactive fluids. The latest one which I'm not sure if it is just a sales pitch sounded similar to RFID in a ways. It was an inert fluid until a particular sound frequency was sent out and the fluid naturally sent back a frequency allowing the fractures to be monitored that way.

4. Microseismic is the most advanced method and involves monitoring for seismic activity and mapping it. This allows them to understand the path the fractures are progressing. I only tend to see this method about once a year.

Do you have sources that you can cite to verify the information above (e.g., published manuals, newspaper or journal articles, etc.)? You'll need them to meet WP requirements, or someone will delete your stuff. Smm201`0 (talk) 02:27, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

208.180.246.209 welcome. Can I suggest that you sign your posts by typing four tildes (like this ~~~~ ) at the end. This makes clear who has said what.

You seem to know a lot about this subject so your contributions will be very welcome. Do you have any reliable sources to support what you say above, if so that would be great, you could than edit the article to show actual fracture monitoring practice rather than someone's guess at what happens. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:36, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Industry applying pressure to limit EPA study re: wastewater and tracers

I provided the quotes that you requested and they do support the statements made but clearly not your perspective. I was surprised how blatant Chesapeake energy was in trying to block research into the potential environmental impact of hydraulic fracturing. The sources support the statement that "Industry applied pressure to limit the study of wastewater and tracers in EPA's study of hydraulic fracturing." Here are the web links. Trial subscription to source are free. Quotes follow.

(1) SAB Pushes To Advise EPA To Conduct Toxicity Tests In Fracking Study. Quote:"...but some members of the chartered SAB are suggesting that the fracking panel revise its recommendation that the agency scale back its planned toxicity testing of chemicals used in the hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, process, because of the limited resources and time frame...Chesapeake Energy supported the draft recommendation, saying that “an in-depth study of toxicity, the development of new analytical methods and tracers are not practical given the budget and schedule limitation of the study.”" InsideEPA, US Environmental Protection Agency

The cited energy company seem merely to be supporting draft recommendations made by some unknown SAB members; hardly 'applying pressure'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

(2)Actual letter from John Satterfield at Chesapeake Energy to EPA "Flowback and Produced water...Chesapeake agrees that an indepth study of toxicity, the development of new analytic methods and tracers are not practical given the budget and schedule limitations of the study...Wastewater Treatment and Waste Disposal...Chesapeake believes there was unjustified emphasis on the surface disposal of produced water to treatment plants in the SAB's Review...Chesapeake disagrees with the inclusion of water distribution network corrosion and burden of analyzing for contaminants by POTW's into the study." InsideEPA, US Environmental Protection Agency.

Smm201`0 (talk) 00:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Again Chesapeake Energy are merely agreeing with a proposal by someone else, for what appear to be practical reasons. This does not justify the characterisation of 'applying pressure'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, that is how the author of the article described it ("push"). Urbina also wrote about the pressure in his article, also cited. Smm201`0 (talk) 21:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The only mention of push that I can see is the push by the SAB in favour of Tixicity tests. SAB that 'Pushes To Advise EPA To Conduct Toxicity Tests'. You seem to be misunderstanding your sources. I will remove the offending statement until you can provide a source that actually supports what you claim. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:32, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

MH, if you are going to work on this page, you are going to have to start reading the sources. The word "pressure" is used 4 times in the source at the end of that sentence. I have added a link after the word industry, but a link at the end of the sentence should have sufficed. At this point there have been many times that you sought to remove or change information without bothering to read the source for it. In the case of the UT study, you didn't read carefully enough to determine context. If you really care about this article you will start to edit it based on information from reliable sources, which requires that you actually read the sources, and read them carefully, and not just edit based on your opinion. Smm201`0 (talk) 12:11, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone else care about this?

I came here is response to and RfC and what I have found is an attempt by some to discredit the industry and spread alarm over its practices.

I have no connection with the oil and gas industry and agree that the article should accurately reflect what is actually done in HF even if it does reveal harmful, dangerous, or risky practices but here I see exaggeration and pointless scary listing of substances used.

If no one else cares about the accuracy of this article I will go away and leave you people to it. If there is a feeling that the article should present a balanced view of the industry and that is currently does not do so then I am happy to stay to help. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:38, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

"If no one else cares about the accuracy of this article I will go away"? Diva much? Please try to assume good faith. We all care about the accuracy of this article; now let's move on and keep hammering out the finer points of what we disagree on. Sindinero (talk) 08:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

It is hard to assume good faith, or in fact anything, about those who do not comment at all. But to answer the question that you asked in your edit summary: yes I am serious. I have come to RfCs before as a genuinely independent and neutral editor to help decide on disputed issues only to find myself being cast as one of the dispute originators. If no one else is interested in stopping what seems to me to be fairly obvious POV pushing here then I will remove this page from my watch list and move on. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:37, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Martin, think positively. If you look in what state this article was just 2 month ago, there has been a significant progress to make it more neutral by removing obvious POV and synthesis. It still needs a work but I still believe it is possible to make a good NPOV article out of it. My story is quite similar to yours — I arrived here two months ago because hydraulic fracturing links were added to some articles in my watch list, found out a total mess and tried to clean it up and remove obvious POV. I was very shortly labelled as "industry paid editor" and falsely reported for edit warring (first time during my six years editing here, by the way). No apology for this, of course. So, I understand very well your frustration and have feel like this by myself. It seems also to be reason why some editors like Mikenorton don't want to take a part of editing this article anymore. However, as I said I believe it would be possible to bring this article to the good article level and I hope you will continue your efforts for this. Answering your question – as I have already said before this is not a place for incriminatory lists. Beagel (talk) 14:03, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

My apparent disengagement from this page was because I was on holiday. Although I am disinclined to make changes, I will continue to take part in discussions. Mikenorton (talk) 21:02, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Crazy lists return

Three separate lists of radionuclides now appear in the 'Fracture monitoring section. We actually have a good source, the UT report, which shows us how radioactive tracers are used in logging, but all we have in the section is three meaningless lists of substances. When I have the time I will try to rewrite the section to be balanced and informative rather than a scary looking list of radionuclides. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Tracers are not discussed in the UT report. The second tracer source reflects international use, so it not only confirms the international use of tracers listed by the first source, but gives non-US information, which is needed on this page. Rather than censor and distort the information on the page, why don't you do something constructive like find citations for the unsupported material, or add sourced statements that reflect your perspective on the issue. That would be a better way of balancing the information on the page than hiding what you don't like. Alternatively, you could use add sourced statements that support your view that the amounts used do not pose a health threat to allay any fears readers might have. Use sources to provide a context. Smm201`0 (talk) 11:27, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Doubled checked the UT study. In the two instances in which the word "tracer" is used, it is in the context of past and potential environmental impact studies, not industry use, and aside from the mention of dyes, the nature of the tracers and context in which they are used in the industry are not described at all. Not informative or useful. By the way, at this time the industry is resisting EPA's proposed use of tracers in this fashion, which could be added to the environmental section. Smm201`0 (talk) 11:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect MH, if you are going to work on this page, you are going to have to start reading the sources. I shouldn't have to cut and paste text on this talk page for you to read. If you really care about this article you will start to edit it based on information from reliable sources, which requires that you carefully read the available sources, and then accurately report what they say. Smm201`0 (talk) 12:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I beg your pardon Smm201`0 I gave the wrong reference, it should have been the IAEA ref. I do read the sources but I quoted the wrong one. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Curious use of the English language.

Smm201`0, your last edit summary said,' The source was at the end of the sentence. Again, please read the sources before saying it isn't supported' but in fact you added the reference at that edit.

In fact the ref only says,' “It’s difficult for researchers to be objective if their university receives a lot of grants and funds from the industry,” she said. “How many grants does that university get from oil and gas operations?” '.

This does not really justify, 'The objectivity of the UT study has been questioned because of industry funding to the university'. Note that the quote says (my bold),'... if their university receives a lot of grants...'. The article goes on to explain that this is not, in fact, the case. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:11, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

To quote what I said when I proposed that wording above "I'm still not convinced that this single source is enough to support this whole paragraph - but it appears to be all that's out there." The complete lack of other sources that question the objectivity of the study makes me think the WP:UNDUE applies and we should probably lose those two sentences. Mikenorton (talk) 20:59, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

It is very much WP:UNDUE. All we have is a question from one person, namely Sister Elizabeth Riebschlaeger. If that is all that is needed, WP could say almost anything. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I copied the ref from the end of the next sentence (I think the whole thing was one sentence originally) so that you could see the source more easily. A source that says that the issue was raised is all that is needed. You folks are too funny...one source is not enough, two is too many...Smm201`0 (talk) 22:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There are other sources that say the same thing that I could add: From West Virginia...

Except that it doesn't mention a conflict of interest due to funding, it contains criticism of the scope, approach and makeup of the team - not the same thing. Mikenorton (talk) 07:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I have deleted the paragraph. None of it is supported by the references given. Martin Hogbin (talk) 07:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

The whole section us of dubious value. Its main thrust seems to be that all research on the subject is of no value unless it proves that fracking is harmful. Martin Hogbin (talk) 07:53, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Fracturing fluids

The fracturing fluid subsection needs cleanup as it contains some repetitions. It needs probably also some re-arrangements. At the moment this subsection is quite long and messy. Cleaning it up and trimming the text will increase its readability and overall quality. Beagel (talk) 16:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Also there are several ref errors in this article that need to be fixed. —Compdude¹²³ 17:38, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I question the statistic of "There are more than 50 types of fluids that can potentially be used as fracturing fluids, following are the fracturing fluids used at more than 95% of fracturing jobs world wide:". This may have been true several years ago, but with the rise in the number of shale plays, slickwater fracs are becoming increasing dominant. Is there recent verification of this statistic. All the jobs that are listed after this statement are either crosslink or gel style systems. The usual desired system for a shale formation is a slickwater system. This is not always true, but with the rise in shale plays around the country and world, it begs the question if the statement is still accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.180.246.209 (talk) 20:19, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

208.180.246.209, please sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end . This will automatically sign and date it so that we can all see who said what and when. Even better why not resister. This gives you access to more features and gives you more editing rights. You can use any user name and your IP address will not be shown so you can remain completely anonymous if you wish.

You obviously know more about the subject than most people here so your input would be very welcome. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Not just slick-water systems, but energized fluids are usually desired on shale. The problem is it is usually cheaper to go with the least desired system just because it is the most economical. With cross-link, the cost savings of less water may be enough to justify the usuall loss of production of a well. We are talking in generalities though. Does anyone have any recent hard statistic to back up any side of this issue.13:31, 26 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.147.72.19 (talk)

,166.147.72.19 please sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end . Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:05, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, 208.180.246.209. Maybe you are interested to edit this section to cleanup and trim the text. It would be perfect if you also will provided references for this section. Thank you. Beagel (talk) 18:31, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Dubious statement

The article includes the following statement: "However, there remain large uncertainties in the amount of gas reserves that can be accessed in this way." As a source, this article by Ian Urbina is given. The statement makes impression that the reason is immaturity of hydraulic fracturing. In fact, the article talks about decreasing of gas reserves estimates for Marcellus Shale. I don't think that the information provided in this source supports the above-mentioned statement and therefore it should be removed. Second, there is a story how Ian Urbina has previously faulty read the data provided by USGS. Although his mistake has been made public, he refers in his story (which is provided as a source) again to this faulty conclusion based on USGS data. It raises a question if Urbina could be taken as reliable source at all. Beagel (talk) 20:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I think the statement in the article should be clarified to better reflect the source, if you think it's unclear. However, I think it falls outside our purview to decide whether Urbina is qualified or not. If he continues to be published in the daily paper of record, I'm not sure how that wouldn't meet the criteria established at WP:RS. (It would be nice if one could disqualify reporters based on dangerous falsehoods or sloppy reporting; I'd nominate Judith Miller to start with!) Sindinero (talk) 20:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

What exactly do you want clarify about this statement? The information about shale gas at Marcellus Formation is relevant for Marcellus Formation article. The amount of Marcellus shale gas reserves does not change the fact that HF is a method used for shale gas and tight oil production in cases when conventional drilling fails. Beagel (talk) 04:32, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I understand that, but HF is not just a method, but is intricately connected to the current shale gas boom it has enabled. Part of this boom are the euphoric predictions about massive supplies that are then occasionally downgraded - not just for the Marcellus, but in the case of Poland as well. I would clarify the statement to make it clear that the amount of gas reserves accessible has nothing to do with the 'immaturity' of the method, as you say, and globalize it by adding reference to Poland. However, it may be worth adding a section or subsection somewhere in the body text to deal with this, since per WP:LEAD the lead needs to summarize the rest. This goes for the preceding sentence as well, which is an important point but not covered in the body: "Proponents of fracking point to the vast amounts of formerly inaccessible hydrocarbons the process can extract." Sindinero (talk) 04:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the lead should summarize the text and not introduce facts not covered in the body text. I am not sure where exactly, but somewhere we should probably add (a) paragraph(s) or a subsection explaining that due to HF, production of shale gas, tight gas and oil, and coal seam gas has become technically more visible. It would be also nice if there is any data how much additional oil and gas is expected to be produced due to HF. However, this data should be explicitly linked to HF and not to be about shale gas reserves or something similar, which is not necessarily the same thing. I have a concern that HF is often interpredated as a synonym of shale gas production. This is true that it is the main method, but at the same time not the only one – e.g. also conventional drilling etc is involved. Also, HF is not limited to shale gas or even to oil and gas industry, although this is the main field of use of it. Therefore, we should avoid lengthy discussion things which instead of this belongs to shale gas articles. Beagel (talk) 07:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, but I would support the proposed new content discussing not just how HF has made production of shale gas etc. more visible/viable, but how it has triggered the shale gas boom and all that entails (a question of emphasis). In academese, HF is not just a technology, but (like any technology) is also a social discourse. Sindinero (talk) 07:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Per this discussion I added new short section based on the newly published report by the IEA. It has global figures instead of country or region specific figures and it includes not only shale gas figures but also figures about other unconventional gas resources which might be produced using hydraulic fracturing. It seems there are also other information in this report which should be mentioned in this article (e.g. IEA's recommendations). Will study it when will have more time. Beagel (talk) 20:05, 29 May 2012 (UTC)