Talk:Objections to evolution/Archive 8

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Further clarification regarding the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

The section that talks about the criticism of evolution that states that it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics correctly points out that this law is incorrectly applied since the Earth and living beings are not closed systems.
Although the section also clarifies that entropy is "a measure of the dispersal of energy in a physical system so that it is not available to do mechanical work", the wording of the section suggests that the 2nd law of thermodynamics can even be applied to the complexity of living organisms.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics pertains the transfer of heat on closed systems, it happens that this law can also be expressed in terms of entropy. However, here 'entropy' and 'closed system' have precise mathematical and physical meanings and 'entropy' even has a precise physical unit (Joules/Kelvin).
This way of criticizing evolution suggest that the 'entropy' of the 2nd law refers to the "dictionary" definition of 'entropy' that pertains the degree of disorder (wich is a very subjective definition) wich in turn can be related (again, in a very subjective way) to the complexity of some subject, object or system (again, very subjective definitions for the words 'complexity' and 'system').
The main reason why this particular way of criticizing evolution is flawed is not that the earth or living organisms are not closed systems, that only makes sense after you make the concession that you can apply the 2nd law of thermodynamics in the first place, wich I think is not being remarked enough in this particular section.

Plaga701 (talk) 08:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Add. "The section that talks about the criticism of evolution that states that it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics correctly points out that this law is incorrectly applied since the Earth and living beings are not closed systems."

pls. compare with: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself." John Ross, Chemical and Engineering News, 7 July 1980, p. 40"

As for other Qs raised, you could read more about subject if gentlemen here would not consider this article to be a showcase of "Leading scientist" effectivly eradicating any non-compliant opinion. Still, if you're willing to discuss the actual content and you do not mind politically incorrect authorship, this might give you some hints about your topic. I'm not proposing to accept it w/o critisism (after all we are humans capable of making mistakes), but if someone states something is wrong, he should IMHO demonstrate it based on actual content rather than put it on black list based on personal bias. --Stephfo (talk) 22:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Stephto, please see WP:UNDUE, and, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT (again). Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

<br\> Where on earth did you get that I had a personal bias? Even though I am an atheist, that has nothing to do with the physical definition of entropy. The source that you provided states:

In this paper, the author will consider the fundamental aspects of entropy and the second law of thermodynamics applied first of all in the traditional definitions used in heat and chemical systems.

after that it says:

Then analogous representations of ‘logical entropy’ will be discussed where for a number of years many scientists (such as Prigogine) have been attempting to simulate in a rational way the idea of functional complexity.<br\>

Prigogine’s work has primarily been seeking to express self organisation in terms of non-equilibrium thermodynamics and the term ‘Prigogine entropy’ has thus been introduced.<br\>

This is an attempt to fit the concept of logical entropy in the framework of the 2lotd, wich is not invalid or preposterous, but failure to do so in a way that encircles every single thing we classify as a system (be it biological, social, mathematical...) does not allow to say that the systems that fail to fit in this new law break the 2lotd. It just allow us to say that the 2lotd cannot be adapted to represent these systems.<br\> It's true that the 2lotd can be applied to closed and open systems, but the issue remains the same, the entropy word is miss-used, because it does not pertain any notion or concept of order or complexity when in the context of the 2lotd, it pertains Joules over Kelvin. In blunt terms (I know biologists and physicist are gonna curse me for what I'm about to do), the entropy change between me and the common ancestor I share would have been to be messured (withing the context of the 2lotd) by taking the average tempeture of the ancestor, every one on it's descendants up until my father and mother while taking the amount of heat introduced in these aforementioned primates, doing the same with me, and the applying the formula deltaS = amount_of_heat_taken/origal_tempeture, and even then it wouldn't make any kind of sense (it doesn't make sense the way it's written now), because the second law of thermodynamics talks about physical entropy, not the perceived complexity of the descendants of an organism over time, wich is a heavily subjective notion that can change from one culture to another and over time.
Plaga701 (talk) 00:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I propose we add this paragraph (I have to find sources to support this):

However as mentioned above, in the context of the second law of thermodynamics, entropy refers to the physical unit joules per kelvin. This definition of entropy is fundamentally different from the more common definition that pertains the level of perceived disorder or complexity of a subject, object or system. Therefore, the entropy that is used to formulate this law cannot be applied to the perceived complexity of organisms, because it not what it measures.<br\>

Plaga701 (talk) 01:26, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Possible sources that I have found for this paragraph:<br\>

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html<br\> http://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm<br\> http://academicearth.org/lectures/the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-and-entropy<br\> http://academicearth.org/lectures/second-law<br\> http://www.khanacademy.org/video/entropy-intuition<br\> http://www.khanacademy.org/video/reconciling-thermodynamic-and-state-definitions-of-entropy<br\> I'm having a hard time finding sourced sources for basic physical concepts like entropy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plaga701 (talk • contribs) 02:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

If nobody disagrees, I'll add the previous paragraph the the section pertaining the 2nd law with the sources that I provided plus this one: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/189035/entropy<br\> Plaga701 (talk) 14:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)