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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Dealing with problematic users

Note that given the recent flurry on these pages, I have a suggestion. SHUN HIM/HER! A more detailed response here.

WLU 14:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC) I wish to provide an alert. Someone has been messing with the article's content. It currently reads as follows:

Section:

---Relation to the theory of evolution

Seeker head (talk) 19:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)seeker_head

Update: vandalization has been corrected.

Seeker head (talk) 19:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)seeker_head

comment (moved from article page)

"I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it… Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin's authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it. Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils… It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test." -Dr. Colin Patterson, a senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History and author of "Evolution" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjrousey (talk • contribs) 20:32, 28 January 2009

See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/patterson.html HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Dogma

The section called "Misconceptions" is unnecessarily dogmatic and seems more concerned with vilifying creationists than clearing up common misconceptions about the missing link concept. Creationist* is mentioned 4 times.

Take for example the line 'Prothero has called that claim the "favourite lie" of creationists...' How is the vitriolic opinion of an evolutionist about creationists relevant to misconceptions? Further dogma can be found in "However, progress in research and new discoveries continue to fill in such gaps, and in modern thinking evolution is pictured as a bush of lines of development, not the simplistic ladder of progress that was common before Darwin published his theory and still influences popular opinion." Says who???

I think this section deserves the weasel-words seal of disapproval. AngusCA (talk) 01:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Creationists are the main group promoting "Misconceptions" about transitional fossils, so that they are frequently mentioned is hardly surprising. That there are "no transitional fossils" is an almost ubiquitous claim in the Creationist community (the sole exception, as far as I know, is Kurt Wise -- who just happens to be the creationist best-qualified to offer an opinion on the topic). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Then you wouldn't have a problem with a minority of well-read creationists swelling the section with terms like "lie", "evolutionists always" this, and "evolutionists attempt" that? I don't know if it fits WP's definition of neutrality, but the sum of all POVs would be neutral. AngusCA (talk) 02:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
It's not really the fact the I have a problem with that as that Wikipedia itself has a problem with it: WP:NPOVFAQ#Giving "equal validity". The only Creationist I know of who would have any credibility on this point would be Wise (both in terms of qualifications and intellectual honesty), but I rather doubt that you'd like what he has to say. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:34, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
What makes you think that you know what I don't like? Do you know that in the same way that you know an ad hominem quote is neutral? The only dislike I've telegraphed is for a jaded elite that think they can express bias, dogma and cheap shots in a medium that's supposed to be neutral. If Wise is willing to take such a group to task, and he's as honest as you say he is, then I don't care what he says.
WP:NPOVFAQ#Giving "equal validity" does not appear to give license to a party to take cheap shots, whether they are a jaded elite or not. AngusCA (talk) 00:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the above user that this section, or at least the first two paragraphs, should be removed. This article falls into the category evolutionary biology and a section that deals with proving creationists wrong, simply doesn't belong in it. It is much more appropriate, albeit rewritten, in the article about the creation-evolution controversy 81.204.124.148 (talk) 01:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Given that the quote/viewpoint is explicitly represented as Prothero's it would appear to meet WP:ASF. I would suspect that his low opinion of the 'no transitional fossils' argument (and view that it is a pervasive argument among creationists) would be fairly pervasive in the scientific community, so it's mention here would not violate WP:DUE. If you think my 'doubts' are unwarranted, you're welcome to read Wise's opinion on transitional fossils for yourself. Last I looked it was prominently linked to at the Center for Origins Research website. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 03:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments about Creationism

While this certainly deserves a mention within the article, the current writeup seems highly unprofessional. Without a citation, the author of these statements could merely be using "straw man" arguments. Regardless, this article is not about the debate between evolutionary scientists or creationists. Perhaps the issue(s) could be raised without actually singling out creationists. Ccchhhrrriiisss (talk) 21:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it is ok, first because most of the misconceptions do come from creationists, so they are rightly singled out. And second the Creationism page is broad enough to cover all forms of creationism, not just Christian, so in that way it is not singling anyone out but in the broadest sense those who have religious beliefs that they believe are contradicted by the existence of transitional fossils. Actually, now that I look at it Creation–evolution controversy#Transitional_fossils actually has a somewhat better write up, but it points back here, would it be too circular for that page to point back here and this section to point back there? Nowimnthing (talk) 13:39, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
No-one except creationists misconstrue and lie about the fossil record. If we're pointing to errors, misunderstandings and lies about transitional fossils, we must point to creationists. We could say "people that don't understand the fossil record criticize the apparent lack of transitional fossils" but that's like intelligent design activists not pointing out that the "designer" is God. Everyone knows it's God. Here, everyone knows (and we can cite) the people lying about the fossil record are creationists. Certainly if we can cite another group willing to ie about the fossil record, we could do that too. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 16:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I have had professors who disagreed with some of the fossil evidence...and they were not creationists at all. To claim that "no one except creationists misconstrue and lie about the fossil record" reveals your bias against that particular segment. As a man of science, I think that it is unwise to point the finger at one segment of the population with such a ridiculous remark. You may THINK that you must point the finger at them, but you are simply incorrect. Ccchhhrrriiisss (talk) 04:18, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

WLU, your fallacy is that this is true of ALL creationists. You have not proven this to be the case. Therefore, this article needs to signify that this is true of "some" creationists -- unless you can provide ample proof that this is a characteristic of "all," "most" or "many." Ccchhhrrriiisss (talk) 21:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually I don't as the current wording is accurate; Prothero states that it is a favourite lie, which is a quote and attributed to a reliable source. And the statement is "It is commonly claimed by creationists", with three sources Prothero, Talk Origins Archive and an actual creationist. So I think that's ample proof, a reasonable wording and I'm pretty much done here. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 14:09, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the wording is as inaccurate as generalizing that evolutionists are atheists or believe a same set of peculiar ideas. There is as much diversity of opinion amongst creationists as there is amongst evolutionists in regard to scientific peculiarities. There is an implication when you generalize creationists into a single category of beliefs. Therefore, clarification is needed as to avoid turning this encyclopedia entry into a generalization of creationism. The article is not about creationalists or how widespread their beliefs might be. This article is about transitional fossils. It is unwise to generalize when it is only a segment of the creationists who might believe as much. This is, after all, spelled out in the Wiki guidelines too. Ccchhhrrriiisss (talk) 11:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
The section cites reliable sources to back up its statements. If you think that denying the existence of abundant transitional fossils is not a majority view among creationists, feel free to improve the article by including such a statement - backed, of course, by reliable sources. I won't hold my breath.--Dr Marcus Hill (talk) 12:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
It is unprofessional to make accusations about creationists and say that they are "common" amongst all creationists. This leads the reader to believe that the statement is ture of every creationist. This is simply incorrect and quite misleading. In addition, we must remember that this article is not a rebuttal against creationism, but an article about transitional fossils. With so much discussion directed at creationism, you would think that this article is either an attack on the concept of creationism specifically, or an article on the debate between these views. Either way, we must be very careful about generalizing an entire segment simply because we assume this is what the majority of that group believes. Ccchhhrrriiisss (talk) 04:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
As the section currently stands, the claim is that these are misconceptions commonly put out by creationists. This is undeniably accurate (as can be seen from the sources cited). Stating that these are things commonly said by creationists does not imply that most creationists consider them to be true.--Dr Marcus Hill (talk) 13:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments about Creationism 2

The article includes two references to the same "Donald Prothero." Who is this guy...and why does his all-encompassing statement about the "favourite lie of creationists" even worthy of inclusion in this article? It seems that "Donald Prothero" doesn't merit enough fame to have an article in the Wikipedia. Besides, it seems like that would be better saved for an article on creationism rather than in an article on transitional fossils. Ccchhhrrriiisss (talk) 21:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The reliability comes from New Scientist rather than Don Prothero. Please check the publisher of the reference and review WP:RS and WP:V. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 13:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the additions under the heading "Missing link found" are inappropriate, especially with that heading, and even moreso without citations. But I will refrain from deleting them altogether, waiting for someone to convice me otherwise. It could give the impression to the casual reader that this fossil marks a significant transition between human and pre-human, but isn't it about 40 million years too early for that? TomS TDotO (talk) 16:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Not only is it unsourced, but it appears to completely misrepresent what the fossil is in fact linking (lemurs to other primates, not other primates to humans). I have deleted it. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 17:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
It is sourced: On May 19, 2009, research led by Jørn Hurum of the Natural History Museum in Oslo, Norway unveils a 47-million-year-old fossil name Ida (Details linked from this site) that they say could revolutionize the understanding of human evolution at a ceremony at the American Museum of Natural History. He said the fossil creature was "the closest thing we can get to a direct ancestor" and described the discovery as "a dream come true" Filosofen (talk) 17:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The link was showing as 404 not found, so I deleted it. The link has since worked, and seems to be a rather film heavy and uniformative official site. Science Daily has good coverage, it's Darwinius masillae and the type specimen has been called "Ida" – the Ida fossil and Ida (fossil) articles look like something to merge into Darwinius masillae. Worth hunting out the PLoS paper. Oh, and it's not The missing link, it's "yet another missing link, creating two new missing links". . dave souza, talk 18:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC) tweaked 18:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC) Links to the PLoS One paper here . . dave souza, talk 18:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Useful commentary from John Wilkins, "There is no missing link : Evolving Thoughts"., as well as "A Discovery That Will Change Everything (!!!) ... Or Not : Laelaps". and PZ: "Darwinius masillae : Pharyngula". . . A more historically accurate perspective. . dave souza, talk 20:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

References

I've removed the following from the external links section; they should be embedded as inline citations rather than attached as links. The AIG article should be reviewed to see if it's worth citing as a "creationists believe"; naturally it's worthless for use as an actual reference. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 13:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

pov hell

need i say more? this whole article is dripping with pov and weasel words. i thought this was supposed to be an encyclopedia. are you people blind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellenwright (talk • contribs) 02:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually you could say more. An actual example of what you consider POV would be very helpful. Aunt Entropy (talk) 17:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Removal of text

I have removed the "Common misrepresentations by creationists" for quite a few logical reasons.

-These "claims" are not false or misrepresentations, they are hypotheses that attempt to explain some of the possible fallacies that may lie within evolution. In order for something to be false, it must be proven ENTIRELY untrue, which has not happened here. The attack on claim number two comes close, however, these features are not partially functional...the are completely nonfunctional. -This section cannot be written in an objective manner without turning it into a section of debate -This is a blatant attack on Creationism, thus compromising the objectivity of the article -Creationists are not the only group who make these claims -Wikipedia is not a debate site. It presents the FACTS. Neither these claims nor the rebuttals against them are facts. Shicoco (talk) 03:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Well referenced section has been restored. Please gain consensus here before removing again. Vsmith (talk) 03:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I have removed this again. First off, it violates WP:SOAP as well as as other policies. Secondly, a well referenced section does not mean a) it is objective b) it is true c) it is worthy of putting in d) it doesn't break the rules of Wikipedia. Shicoco (talk) 03:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Well referenced section has once again been restored and warning issued for it's second removal. If you feel it qualifies as WP:SOAP or violates wikipedia policies then I suggest a WP:RfC, instead of your attempt at just blanking a well referenced section. — raeky (talk | edits) 04:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Rfc: Common misrepresentations by Creationists section may be against WP policies

I would like comments on this section. It might not be neutral, and it contains logical fallacies (it says these "claims" are false, but they haven't been proven to be so, they are just debated to be so). I also don't think this section is very relevant to the article. Also, Creationists are not the only group of people who make these "claims", thus it attacks Creationists unjustifiably. Please comment objectively as I am. I would not wish to see this kind of section that attacks evolutionists on a creationist page. Shicoco (talk) 04:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

However, it's anti-evolutionists that make these claims, not just Creationists. Also, these claims are NOT FALSE! They are hypotheses as to ways evolution could be wrong. This turns this section into a debate! Shicoco (talk) 04:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Here's how I see it, non evolutionists claim a negative side, such as X is not possible because of Y, or there is a lack of Z. Evolutionists theorize how X could be possible, or theorize a good reason for a lack of Z. I think if this section is to be kept, it should be amended, to show some attacks against transitional fossils, and possible solutions made by evolutionists. The only other way to make it neutral is to show false claims by evolutionists, with commentaries by non-evolutionists, and that would turn this article into a reference for debate. Shicoco (talk) 05:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't creationists and non evolutionists just two words for the same? Petter Bøckman (talk) 05:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Plus I object to the term "evolutionist" it's a way for creationists to brand scientists/people under a false idea that evolution is a religion and that there are followers, evolutionists. You're ignoring the most important wikipedia rule: WP:FRINGE. Creationism is WP:FRINGE. Therefore views/ideas that do not support evolution are WP:FRINGE, therefore we at wikipedia give very little weight to them and all our articles are slanted towards the fact of evolution. No matter your personal beliefs in a supernatural explination of origin or not, supernatural explinations are WP:FRINGE and NOT science. So it is to be expected that scientific articles treat it as such. — raeky (talk | edits) 05:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I think you hold a false paranoia about what people think of the term evolutionist lol. However, if you can come up with a suitable term for an "evolutionist" that doesn't offend you, I will oblige. But know that I regard evolution as a science.
And there are many athiests who are non-evolutionists. And here is a quote from WP:FRINGE "On the other hand, subjects such as creationism or creation science, which involve a direct conflict between scientific discoveries and religious doctrine, should be evaluated on both a scientific and a theological basis." Shicoco (talk) 05:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Not really a "false paranoia", see: Evolutionism#Modern_usage. And your quote of WP:FRINGE means it needs to meet criteria for scientific articles, i.e. strong peer reviewed reliable sources. — raeky (talk | edits) 05:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Please ignore previous comments by Raeky, as they're off topic. Now, I would like legitimate comments. My vote is to remove the section, however, amendments are cool too. The word creationist should be removed from the title of the section, as there are athiests who use these claims against evolution. The word misrepresentation should also be removed, but that would devalue the section, so... PROPOSED SOLUTION - Rename section as something like "Anti-evolution arguments regarding transitional fossils". In the section, list the claims, and after, list proposed solutions to claims. For example: "There is a lack of transitional fossils." hypothesis: "A very small percentage of animals become fossilized." Any thoughts? Shicoco (talk) 06:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts are that,frankly, you have no idea what you're talking about. Raeky's comments are quite on topic. There is NO reason to remove the section, nor reason to remove the word creationist, nor any atheists who bother to argue against evolution. Also - answering the claim that there is a lack of transitional fossils with anything other than the fact that there is no such lack and that the creationists are lying when they say there is would be a misrepresentation of the facts.Farsight001 (talk) 06:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I want to limit this to discussion of the section. First off, if you have any idea that I'm some pro creationist guy who is out to get the theory evolution, please get rid of that thought. Now there is a lack of transitional fossils, but how big you think the lack is is up to you. Secondly, as creationists aren't the only ones who use these arguments, titling this with creationists is attacking creationists, something Wikipedia is not about. I wouldn't like such an attack on evolutionists either. What I want is complete neutrality. IN THE LEAST the title should be changed to "Common misrepresentations" Shicoco (talk) 06:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
prove it — raeky (talk | edits) 06:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)::I fully agree with Farsight001. Can I also point out that we are not voting, we are having a discussion hoping to arrive at a consensus - see WP:PRACTICAL on polls. Also, the warning on Raeky's page that he may be blocked is a misuse of the template. There is no way I or any of my Admin colleagues are going to block Raeky for his comments above. Dougweller (talk) 06:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Great, discussion. Well, what about presenting this section as common anti-evolution arguments regarding transitional fossils, and possible solutions to the arguments? Really, at the moment, it's just a big attack. The quality of the article is not that of an encyclopedia nature, in my opinion. It should be more neutral. And I didn't read the template, I have the automated tool to do it. Anyways, thoughts on neutrality? Please try to be neutral yourselves. Wikipedia is not about discrediting Creationists, even if they do say stupid things. Shicoco (talk) 07:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality is given weight, for you to remove the word creationist from the title you need to sources that indicate that a substantial number of non-creationists have arguments against transitional fossils. Same with anything, neutrality is defined by due-weight. It's NOT a NPOV to remove creationists if in fact the overwhelming majority of people who have arguments against transitional fossils are in fact creationists. I don't think you understand wikipedia policy enough. You're being blinded by your beliefs here, and can't accept that in the scientific community they're considered fringe. Like I said, you're the one proposing these changes/edits, the burden of proof is on you. — raeky (talk | edits) 07:20, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Good points, however, this isn't a scientific community here, this is a neutral community. At least it is in the articles. I'm not being led by my beliefs, I'm an English major, and frankly the quality of most wikipedia articles, including this one and this section, are not up to encyclopedia level. That's what I aim to improve. And besides all that matter, the section still is defamatory towards people. I don't care if it attacks as much as I care about it defaming people or insulting them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shicoco (talk • contribs) 07:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Nobel as your ideas are on a "neutral community" you're misguided. Neutrality in wikipedia terms has a key component of undue weight and we also have funny concepts like verifiability and reliable sources. No matter what even a consensus of the editors here THINKS it doesn't get added to the article until it's verifiable and documented with reliable sources. Because the overwhelming critics of evolution and concepts like transitional fossils is creationists we given proper due weight to their arguments here. Just because a small percent of those may not actually self-identify as a creationist doesn't mean that they deserve weight in the article. And on the same note, just because some portion of the population believes God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster created life doesn't mean we give their arguments weight unless they're verifiable, documented in reliable sources and a majority view. Since there is no debate on the fact of evolution in the scientific community means that articles dealing with evolution and science doesn't give weight to any of the "evidence" against it. This is common wikipedia practice. You're opinion is not going to change this. — raeky (talk | edits) 07:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

As for me containing this argument, I'm not. Therefore I'm shunning you. Please do not contact me on my talk page anymore. You're arguments are not new and not productive to this article. Keep in mind I will continue to revert/remove your edits and warn you if they go against consensus. Thank you for your time. — raeky (talk | edits) 07:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

You still don't understand that this isn't about my opinions. But oh well. Perhaps this will just stay a bad article.

I could also argue you to prove that it's mostly creationists that use these claims. " ...but are also explained as a tactic actively employed by creationists seeking to distort or discredit evolutionary theory and have been called the "favourite lie" of creationists." What does creationists' anti-evolution tactics have to do with this article? Favourite lie of creationists? This is saying that Creationists are liars. For one, just disproving the claim is enough for this section, and secondly, this is attacking a group of people. This section is about misrepresentations right? Not about tactics or lying.

Claim 2 says "No fossils are found with partially functional features", but the argument uses vestigial organs to counter. Vestigial organs are not partially functional, they're completely useless, or very close to. They do hint that at some point in history they were partially useful, but this argument is probably begging the question "Where are the animals with the partial lungs and partial gills?" Certainly during the course of evolution, while the lung was developing, at some point the species could use both the features of the lungs and the gills. It's asking for fossils that show this. If there is proof of this, it needs to be put here pronto. Claim 3: "Henry M. Morris and other creationists have incorrectly claimed" Is it really important that we name someone specifically? According to the quote other creationists have also incorrectly claimed this too. "...claimed that evolution predicts a continuous gradation in the fossil record, and have misrepresented the expected partial record as having "systematic gaps".[5] Due to the specialized and rare circumstances required for a biological structure to fossilize, only a very small percentage of all life-forms that ever have existed can be expected to be represented in discoveries and each represents only a snapshot of the process of evolution." This is incorrect, and a logical fallacy of irrelevant conclusion. This does not disprove the argument; assume for a second Creationism were true; there can still be missing fossils. This also assumes that evolution is a fact. Claim 4 might just be irrelevant altogether. Shicoco (talk) 08:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

First, in response to a comment above - that you claim not to be a creationist is really meaningless. Creationists lie about such things regularly, thinking it will get them more authority or respect. I don't know if you are doing this, but if so, I'm obviously not being duped. If you aren't, you should have experience with creationists who do this and thus be understanding of my skepticism. (and frankly, you are indicating in pretty much everything you say that you are a creationist) Now to your points:
Vestigial organs DO retain some function. If you had just even checked the wiki article on them, you would see this. Also, a vestigial organ is not a partial organ. You are simply expressing a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works. As for the rest of your post - it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What are you even trying to say?Farsight001 (talk) 11:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Creationist misrepresentation section

Ok, I'm starting a new section because a previous user made this a Evolutionist vs Creationist argument. This is an objective discussion on possible problems with this section of the article. The "who" of the section is not important. I want to look into the neutrality of this section. Here are some points:

Claim 1: " ...but are also explained as a tactic actively employed by creationists seeking to distort or discredit evolutionary theory and have been called the "favourite lie" of creationists." What does creationists' anti-evolution tactics have to do with this article? Favourite lie of creationists? This is calling a group of people liars. For one, just disproving the claim is enough for this section, and secondly, this is attacking a group of people. This section is about misrepresentations right? Not about tactics or lying. If they are liars is it Wikipedia's place to announce it? Claim 2 says "No fossils are found with partially functional features", but the argument uses vestigial organs to counter. Vestigial organs are not partially functional, they're completely useless, or very close to. They do hint that at some point in history they were partially useful, but this argument is probably begging the question "Where are the animals with the partial lungs and partial gills?" Certainly during the course of evolution, while the lung was developing, at some point the species could use both the features of the lungs and the gills. It's asking for fossils that show this. If there is proof of this, it needs to be put here pronto. Claim 3: "Henry M. Morris and other creationists have incorrectly claimed" Is it really important that we name someone specifically? According to the quote other creationists have also incorrectly claimed this too. "...claimed that evolution predicts a continuous gradation in the fossil record, and have misrepresented the expected partial record as having "systematic gaps".[5] Due to the specialized and rare circumstances required for a biological structure to fossilize, only a very small percentage of all life-forms that ever have existed can be expected to be represented in discoveries and each represents only a snapshot of the process of evolution." This is incorrect, and a logical fallacy of irrelevant conclusion. This does not disprove the argument; assume for a second Creationism were true; there can still be missing fossils. This also assumes that evolution is a fact. Claim 4 might just be irrelevant altogether.

I would appreciate your thoughts. To me, a group is being attacked. Doesn't matter who's being attacked, just the fact that they are...that is if you think they are being attacked. Your thoughts, please. Shicoco (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

From WP:NPV "Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone." Take a look at the page...some of it MAY apply here. What does everyone else think? Shicoco (talk) 08:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Creationist claims about transitional fossils

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups.

— Evolution as Fact and Theory Science and Creationism, Stephen Jay Gould
No fossils are found with partially functional features

There is also evidence that a complex feature can adapt to wholly different functions through exaptation (such as the wings of birds).

Henry M. Morris

HrafnTalkStalk(P) 09:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Hrafn's argument looks fine to me. Guettarda (talk) 19:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

To me too. I'd only vote for changing the section if Shicoco (or someone else) have reputable references for his claims.Petter Bøckman (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I must say I don't see a big problem with the section. It is well sourced. It reads as being a little harsh towards the creation science crowd, but WP:UNDUE requires psuedo science, and there is no room for doubt that the scientific community treats creation science as psuedo science, to be clearly labled as such or ignored, and given the amount of attention this topic has received it is impossible to ignore. It is hard to point out that something is considerd psuedo science without sounding critical. Frankly, I am more concerned by the "Comparison to 'intermediate' forms" section which has a number of unsourced assertions. Rusty Cashman (talk) 18:58, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually a little careful rewording, especially of the first sentence might be in order. I would suggest changing "Proponents of creationism frequently make false claims about the existence or implications of transitional fossils. Common false claims include:" to "Proponents of creationism have frequently made claims about the existence or implications of transitional fossils that the scientific community considers to be false and misleading. Some of these claims include:" I think that would be a little more encyclopedic and would make it clear who considers the claims to be fasle. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd have no problem with that. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 19:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Ditto, good suggestion. Petter Bøckman (talk) 21:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I am inclined to agree with Rusty. However I would like to see an explicit reliable source that describes "proponents of creationism making frequent claims about transitional fossils". Axl ¤ [Talk] 17:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
The Stephen Jay Gould quote above is one such source. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 18:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
See also [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]. . dave souza, talk 19:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment The article seems to about 'Controversy about transitional fossils' rather than 'Transitional fossils'. If it is just about transitional fossils as a scientific subject then it should just state the current scientific view on the subject. No reference to creationists or any other non-scientific group should be made. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I agree with Martin Hogbin. Ditch the creationism section altogether. In particular, articles on biology should never refer to creationism. --TS 12:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I agree. Put in a see also to Creationism or whatever article is appropriate, make sure that article mentions the controversy. Dougweller (talk) 12:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
      • I disagree with you, Gentlemen. Transitional fossils seem to be a hot topic in creationism, and as such I think the section has it's place here. Petter Bøckman (talk) 14:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
        • A "hot topic in creationism"? The mind boggles. Anyway, I'm with Martin and Doug. I did think it was a mistake to delete the section at first, but the article is primarily a science topic and isn't improved by false and disproven claims by creationists. Some reference to the "interest" of creationists is certainly merited, but a relatively long-winded description of their "ideas" should really be saved for articles specifically on creationist topics. We need to be careful that science articles are not needlessly afflicted by expansive sections on pseudoscience that distract from mainstream content. --PLUMBAGO 21:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
          • It boggles the mind indeed! I have nothing against shortening it up, but before significant changes are done the section Keep, amend, mention or delete "Misconceptions" section-section should be considered. Petter Bøckman (talk) 07:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

An early instance of the phrase appears in "Soapy" Samuel Wilberforce's 1860 review of On the Origin of Species, p. 247 "in the vast museum of departed animal life which the strata of the earth imbed for our examination, whilst they contain far too complete a representation of the past to be set aside as a mere imperfect record, yet afford no one instance of any such change as having ever been in progress, or give us anywhere the missing links of the assumed chain...." . . . dave souza, talk 22:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Creationism section

In my view this otherwise quite well written piece on a scientific subject is marred by a section discussing some long-refuted canards that have no scientific credibility at all. Would it not be better to merge this section into an article on creationist arguments? The treatment in the article at present lends massively undue weight to notions that rightly command little or no respect in scientific discourse. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 00:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

We've been over it a few times, and the consensus seems to be that the section belong here.Petter Bøckman (talk) 07:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Creationist arguments about transitional fossils are covered in other articles, and they play no significant part in the scientific debate. Perhaps it would be appropriate to summarise here and direct to the more comprehensive articles. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 05:02, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
While the creationist arguments may not be considered scientifically valid, legitimate scientists have gone out of their way to address those arguments in reliable sources and are still doing so in such recent sources as Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True, Richard Dawkins' Greatest Show on Earth, Ken Miller's Only a Theory etc. as well as in the works of Stephen Jay Gould and other sources cited by this article. As long as the arguments have been discussed in multiple reliable scientific sources it is perfectly reasonable for this article to summerize those discussions and their conclusions as it does. Sometimes scientific topics have implications beyond science, and given how prominently this particular scientific topic has figured into the evolution-creation controversy I don't see any reason not to discuss the role it has played in that controversy as long as the discussion cites reliable soureces. Rusty Cashman (talk) 09:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I think the fact that biologists have spent a lot of energy rebutting creationist arguments on this subject weighs in its favor. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 11:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

'Common arguments by creationists'

That is a highly discriminatory title, isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.46.83 (talk) 04:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Why? They're common. They're arguments. And they're from creationists.Farsight001 (talk) 04:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Npov

I have changed the subtitle to the npov 'Creationism' but the article still implies science/Bible hybrid theories like Progressive Creationism don`t exist... andycjp (talk) 04:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Section title restored, it was about "arguments" and sourced as such. The section does not state "all creationists". Vsmith (talk) 04:45, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
I'd also point out that "science/Bible hybrid" creationist views quite frequently argue against transitional fossils (particularly Ape->Human transitions) -- Casey Luskin over at the Discovery Institute seems to spend quite a bit of time on the subject. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 05:06, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
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