Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Association for Contextual Behavioral Science
I am a member of the organization and perhaps not unbiased, but I want to say that the organization is very important for professionals (both clinicians and scientists) working within behavior analysis and the work will benefit people in general. The area as well as the organization is expanding rapidly why I would say it is of importance to keep the page.
- Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Dubious notability; author removed PROD but still lacks independent sources to confirm enduring notability. Zzarch (talk) 01:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- The author did not remove PROD for this article, I did. I disagree that this article meets criteria for deletion which is why I removed PROD in the first place. --Tzadkiel43 (talk) 01:21, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Additionally, it would seem that ACBS is notable enough to be mentioned within the article for Behaviorism itself... see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism#21st-century_behavior_analysis --Tzadkiel43 (talk) 01:24, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Understood. If you could find independent sources confirming the general notability of this organization, I would support keeping. Zzarch (talk) 01:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I was able to find a few independent sources which make mention of ACBS: "http://moritaschool.com/content/links", "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831449/", "http://jpepsy.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/398.short". The following google scholar search brought up 55 hits: "http://scholar.google.com/scholar?lr=lang_en&q=%22association+for+contextual+behavioral+science%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0,14" --Tzadkiel43 (talk) 01:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I see.
Voting for Keep then,but you may wish to integrate some third party source into the article itself. Zzarch (talk) 01:57, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I see.
- I was able to find a few independent sources which make mention of ACBS: "http://moritaschool.com/content/links", "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831449/", "http://jpepsy.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/398.short". The following google scholar search brought up 55 hits: "http://scholar.google.com/scholar?lr=lang_en&q=%22association+for+contextual+behavioral+science%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0,14" --Tzadkiel43 (talk) 01:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Understood. If you could find independent sources confirming the general notability of this organization, I would support keeping. Zzarch (talk) 01:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Additionally, it would seem that ACBS is notable enough to be mentioned within the article for Behaviorism itself... see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism#21st-century_behavior_analysis --Tzadkiel43 (talk) 01:24, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Delete I have found no independent sources mentioning this group. From what I can tell the links above are all from advocates, with one source only mentioning this group while citing the Wikipedia page. Furthermore, the account creating this article may be the same Steven C. Hayes who founded the therapy it advocates.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- That seems a valid WP:COI concern, and I am withdrawing my vote for now to see if anyone can provide sources that clearly come from neutral and non-advocating parties. Zzarch (talk) 04:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Keep It's an important, fastly expanding organization. Branches (chapters) in many countries - see here for the Dutch wing. I'll see if I can add more. It's hard to find independent sources for whatever group. It's their activities that are mentioned. See also American Association of Christian Counselors, American Psychoanalytic Association, or American Academy of Psychoanalysis and Dynamic Psychiatry to name just a few (not to mention Muslim Association for the Advancement of Science, American Society for Photobiology, or Maharashtra Academy of Sciences. Try to find independent sources for these! And their pages contain much less information. If this page is deleted, you have to delete plenty of others.--Queeste (talk) 07:08, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Keep I completely agree here. Another excellent example is the Association for Behavior Analysis International. Only 3 citations, and all of them are from internal sources. 2 of them are from their own publications and the 3rd is from the website of one of their special interest groups. The latest version of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science now has 9 references, 5 of which appear to me to be independent sources. If that is not acceptable, then surely all of these other groups must be considered for deletion as well.--Tzadkiel43 (talk) 08:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Behavioural science-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Queeste and Tzadkiel have few edits on Wikipedia and a nice chunk of those edits relate to this therapy and its proponents. The therapy itself has some established notability, but notability is not transferable to anything related to the therapy.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment on comment Are we going ad hominem? The Devil's Advocate's comment is a lie. I do have few edits, right. I'm Dutch speaking and active on the Dutch Wiki. But a nice chunk of my edits having to do with this therapy??? Exactly 1 to be precise: it's about Steven Hayes. What did I add: a category! Big thing, no? Check my Dutch edits if you want to have an impression of my background; be my guest. And still: it's ad hominem and thus besides the question. It's an insult.--Queeste (talk) 17:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am clever enough to actually look at your contributions you know, including those on the Dutch Wikipedia. You have made mostly insignificant contributions there (a whole lot of redirects to articles about beer stuck out) and, once more, you were making a lot of contributions to articles related to this therapy right as you started editing there. As far as only making "1 edit" you actually have made several, though you may think someone is not going to check up on that. You have added wikilinks for the Steven Hayes article to other articles, added information about RFT, made edits on experiential avoidance that support the general contention of ACT, and added the website for the subject of this article to another page. All of that on the English Wikipedia. Edits on this particular subject are your first edits in both areas of Wikipedia. Do you have any affiliation with the proponents of the therapy?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Would it be possible to move the discussion back to the merits of the article itself? I hardly think that my relatively few edits (most of which concern naval issues, not sure how you came to the conclusion that a "nice chunk" relate to the therapy or its proponents) compared to yours has much to do with the points that were raised concerning the presence of other articles covering organizations without independent sources. The argument that you made concerning the therapy's notability not applying to the organization also applies to Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies and Association for Behavior Analysis International. If these articles are acceptable, why not Association for Contextual Behavioral Science? Or any of the other organizations that Queeste mentioned that you did not address?--Tzadkiel43 (talk) 22:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is important an admin reviewing this understands the apparent biases of those suggesting it be kept. Your points are ultimately not very significant. There are many articles lacking sources, but notability does not specifically require that sources be present in the article. So long as independent sources exist supporting its notability the article is suitable for inclusion. However, listing other articles that you think should or should not be deleted is a distraction. If any of those other articles lack sufficient notability for an independent article then those would need to be deleted as well. What matters is whether this article has notability that can be established with significant mentions in independent reliable sources.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- We can agree to disagree about the relevance of the other similar articles currently in existence, I think. Can you be specific as to exactly what kinds of independent sources you consider suitable? A google search for "Association for Contextual Behavioral Science" returns 389,000 results. --Tzadkiel43 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Raw number of hits are irrelevant. The top results I find are all directly-affiliated or closely-affiliated with the subject of the article. After ten pages of such sources Google stops listing them because the rest are apparently not much different.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm starting to get the impression that you're really not reading what I am typing here. I asked you directly what kinds of independent sources you consider suitable, and you offered no input on that. I'm going to go ahead and add this to the debate: ACBS is a rapidly expanding notable international organization of over 5,000 members on par with other organizations with their own articles. ACBS was recognized back in 2007 by the Association for Behavior Analysis International as a noteworthy organization.[1] Time magazine ran a piece on Steven C. Hayes in which the ACBS website is listed as a resource for locating ACT therapists.[2] Finally, I noticed that in addition to calling for the deletion of this article you've flagged the biography for Steven C. Hayes as problematic as well. Since you've ignored the other articles which I have pointed out have the exact same problems as the article under discussion, I think I'm going to have to point out a possible bias on your part, The Devil's Advocate, as you seem to be targeting Steven C. Hayes and the organization that he is associated with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tzadkiel43 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Raw number of hits are irrelevant. The top results I find are all directly-affiliated or closely-affiliated with the subject of the article. After ten pages of such sources Google stops listing them because the rest are apparently not much different.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- We can agree to disagree about the relevance of the other similar articles currently in existence, I think. Can you be specific as to exactly what kinds of independent sources you consider suitable? A google search for "Association for Contextual Behavioral Science" returns 389,000 results. --Tzadkiel43 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is important an admin reviewing this understands the apparent biases of those suggesting it be kept. Your points are ultimately not very significant. There are many articles lacking sources, but notability does not specifically require that sources be present in the article. So long as independent sources exist supporting its notability the article is suitable for inclusion. However, listing other articles that you think should or should not be deleted is a distraction. If any of those other articles lack sufficient notability for an independent article then those would need to be deleted as well. What matters is whether this article has notability that can be established with significant mentions in independent reliable sources.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Would it be possible to move the discussion back to the merits of the article itself? I hardly think that my relatively few edits (most of which concern naval issues, not sure how you came to the conclusion that a "nice chunk" relate to the therapy or its proponents) compared to yours has much to do with the points that were raised concerning the presence of other articles covering organizations without independent sources. The argument that you made concerning the therapy's notability not applying to the organization also applies to Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies and Association for Behavior Analysis International. If these articles are acceptable, why not Association for Contextual Behavioral Science? Or any of the other organizations that Queeste mentioned that you did not address?--Tzadkiel43 (talk) 22:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am clever enough to actually look at your contributions you know, including those on the Dutch Wikipedia. You have made mostly insignificant contributions there (a whole lot of redirects to articles about beer stuck out) and, once more, you were making a lot of contributions to articles related to this therapy right as you started editing there. As far as only making "1 edit" you actually have made several, though you may think someone is not going to check up on that. You have added wikilinks for the Steven Hayes article to other articles, added information about RFT, made edits on experiential avoidance that support the general contention of ACT, and added the website for the subject of this article to another page. All of that on the English Wikipedia. Edits on this particular subject are your first edits in both areas of Wikipedia. Do you have any affiliation with the proponents of the therapy?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- I know I'm asked to keep focused on the article and not the person, but just this: I know (more than) a few things about behaviorism. And yes, RFT is recent behaviorism, so I do have some knowledge. I wrote more on behaviorism, token economy, delay discounting, etc and tens of times more about beer, religion, history, ... So what? Only people not knowing anything about the subject are valid? If you want to start a discussion about beer, only they who know about wine are neutral or objective? Just had to get rid of this. Now the article: essentially the other mentioned organisations have no more "independent" sources acknowledging their importance: American Association of Christian Counselors, American Psychoanalytic Association, or American Academy of Psychoanalysis and Dynamic Psychiatry to name just a few (not to mention Muslim Association for the Advancement of Science, American Society for Photobiology, or Maharashtra Academy of Sciences. And these are just a few. Delete all?--Queeste (talk) 07:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)